Holy Trinity Publications discussion
The Struggle for Virtue
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Week 1 (Sept. 7 - 13): Introduction: The Essence and Meaning of Asceticism
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First, thank you for the opportunity to participate and share thoughts on the book!Overall impression of Introduction – Hits the nail on the head. The concept of asceticism is either polluted with secular imagery, or lost to most Christians as an endeavor reserved for the very elect (read as monastics or clergy in general).
A few brief thoughts:
1) The link between body and spirit, in terms of ascetic struggle, comes from the ultimate goal of nurturing a good and God pleasing disposition in the soul. The external, physical struggle can be one means to assisting in the inner struggle, of creating a good inclination of the heart towards God. Simply avoiding evil external habits and/or doing good works alone is not an end unto itself, but a tool in the ultimate warfare of uprooting evil and self will in the soul.
2) Starting with external images (good acts), Vl. Averky eventually gravitates toward his ultimate definition, which is spiritual training and struggle – a constant battle to uproot evil habit and evil will and replace these with God pleasing inclinations. One analogy I didn't see in the writing, but often feels appropriate, is weeding a garden, which seems an almost never-ending but necessary endeavor. Weeds in the soul...
3&5) Vl. Averky mentions the distorted perception of what secular society defines asceticism as (self-torture, etc.). Couldn't that perception be dealt with right from the start by making the statement that asceticism is a natural, and inherent part of the human condition (necessary now because of sin). If we had not been separated from God, there would be no need to rehabilitate the broken and distorted humanity; thus asceticism is not something extraordinary we have to add to our human nature, but a condition always there, and necessary to achieve what was lost.
6) Based on the progression of Vl. Averky's definition of asceticism, it could follow that if we cannot reign in evil habits, then there is no good disposition or grounds on which to begin the battle within the soul. It would almost seem that the demons needn't bother with the individual who is bond by evil or bad habits, since he is already self-defeated.
7) The best image I can think of for this is the icon of the Ladder. If we are attempting to constantly uproot evil will and replace it with good, God-pleasing will, this is toward the ultimate goal for us all – restoration of the communion Adam had with God at creation. We cannot achieve that without restoring the disfigured human condition, which is done through ascesis within the hospital of the soul, the Holy Church.
gpk
Mod
Everything Vladyka Averky says about struggling against bad habits and evil is true, of course. But one can get the impression that "good" and "evil" are two equally powerful forces pitted in a war for our soul. The truth is, Christ has already won the war and conquered death (sin) through His saving Passion and Resurrection. It is of course left to us to choose to become partakers of His victory.
This understanding in no way negates the need for asceticism and the struggle for virtue. These are necessary to prove and to perfect our continued Communion with our Savior, as well as for all the other reasons explained in the chapter. But it might go a long way towards leaving the reader encouraged by Vlakyka's words and not daunted.
Mod
One question regarding a concept that came up for me a while back. I once answered someone's questions of "what is hell" as "separation from God". It was explained to me during the discussion that, "it is not actually separation, since God is everywhere and fills all things. It is, rather, "the way we experience God." I bring this up in light of your comment above, regarding good and evil, and that even though Christ has defeated death and sin, we must choose to become partakers.
Two totally different concepts, but I wanted to bring it up simply because the term "separation from God" is very often used, but does it mean what we think it means? I think we are often bound by physical constructs and concepts of separation.
Any thoughts? Perhaps this will come up in a later chapter and we can shelve this discussion until then?
Hi, I'm new to this group by I wanted to comment on the question about "separation from God." My understanding has always been that it is not a physical separation, but an awareness and final realization of Who God is and the need for His love, but now unable to do anything about it. Kind of like when the rich man sees the poor man in the Lord's bosom and asks that someone be sent to warn his still-living relatives. The rich man finally realizes "who God is" but cannot do anything about it. Does this make sense?
Yes, this is what I was referring to, and that particular Gospel passage was I was referring to in my old discussions. I had mistakenly viewed separation as God's presence not being there at all. So I think you are definitely identifying what I was talking about, and how I now perceive it. Realizing "who God is" is a good way to put it. Thanks!
Greetings, fellow readers. I just learned of the book discussion today and am pleased to join. I have read much of the book already and the Introduction has been my favorite part thus far. Excellent questions to ponder...2. I very much liked how the author defined asceticism, reviewing the misconceptions about it and the real meaning of "struggle" - as a training, to do what is good, to uproot what is evil in ourselves, and not just in our actions but also in our dispositions. This is very hard work when taken seriously but it makes great sense.
5. When viewed this way, how could any Christian think, "asceticism isn't necessary for me"? If, as Christians, we grow lax in our training, we become lax Christians - which is an unfortunate tendency observable to some extent in all of the churches (plural, to include all denominations identifying as Christian). While Christ has already saved us from our sins, if we should regard ourselves then as home free and no longer in need of training, we will drift away from Him. Without realizing it, we could become one of those of whom Christ says at the end, "I never knew you..." (Mt 7:23), despite thinking we had lived our lives as Christians. Even if we reach great spiritual heights (which I certainly haven't), we can see from the example of the saints that asceticism is then a work we must do for our brothers and sisters. If they are weak or in trouble, how could we not do for them what we do for ourselves, if we love them as ourselves?
6. Related to this is how insidious are our evil habits. If we know that we are battling a demon, we will be on guard, fasting and praying. But our habits often don't seem so bad to us. Because of whatever comfort they bring or justifications we have made over the years, we can tell ourselves that we are good people and not even question our habits. Evil best keeps us captive when we don't even recognize it as evil. A good reason to fear our habits.
7. I find in this question a great and beautiful paradox. I am called to "be perfect" and yet my struggles (asceticism) will never make me perfect. Yet I must struggle or I will not become perfect as I am called to be. I can only begin to comprehend this paradox in recognizing that Christ is the fulfillment, the perfection of human life and therefore the perfection of my life. Thus, I must struggle to grow closer to Him and never drift away. It is not that my struggle actually brings me closer, however, but it opens me and enables me to receive His grace.
Mary,Good point regarding dealing with our brothers and sisters in our struggle. I very often put on blinders when I think about asceticism, focusing on MY struggle, MY habits, MY salvation. The communal aspect is often lost to me - if we are part of the Church, our life in Christ involves our neighbor. I often act as though I live on a secluded island.
Thank you for that insight.
I haven't mastered how to comment on something posted above so I will put my comment here (feel free to instruct me).Gregory - I find myself pondering your weeding the garden imagery as well. I am not a particularly good gardener but I am working at it - dealing with rather poor soil and voracious bugs and groundhogs. But I am learning and dreaming of conquering these troubles! Anyway, often by spring, I have forgotten what I have planted where - especially not remembering what survived the pests and not knowing what survived the winter. So, as plants begin coming up, I'm not always sure what is a flower and what is a weed. Should I pull it up or let it grow?
This difficulty extends the metaphor for me to the question regarding habits and dispositions. Not to say that we never know evil when we see it, but it is so easy to be blind to our own faults or to project blame to another because it is painful and shameful to dig really deep into our own "gardens".
Any thoughts on the relationship between asceticism and repentance? Given this definition, are they the same thing - or are they different?
Mod
Mary, thank you for this wonderful comment. You're absolutely right and we see this throughout the lives of the saints. My mind jumps to Ss. Seraphim of Sarov, Theophan the Recluse, John of Shanghai and San Francisco. There is hardly any hermit saint (at least, not of those known to us) whose life does not include some form of service to others. Like Gregory pointed out, asceticism does not equal setting yourself apart from the Church.
Mod
Mary wrote: Any thoughts on the relationship between asceticism and repentance? Given this definition, are they the same thing - or are they different? Mary - I was always under the impression that repentance is one aspect of the ascetic struggle. Perhaps part of the ascetic struggle is in maintaining the spirit of repentance until our last breath. I find it is easy to start on this path, such as one might feel after Forgiveness Vespers at the onset of the Great Fast. But then we are turned in every direction, distracted and assaulted, until we find ourselves firmly 180 degrees around and going in reverse, away from God.
I am confusing myself now! I guess repentance could be a state in which we want to firmly plant ourselves and remain in, constantly monitoring our own heart. And yet it could also be perceived as a tool to be used in our struggle, no?
Is it a state or presence of the heart, or a tool to strengthen and guard the heart, or both?
Any thoughts?
Mod
These fruits of repentence can be seen as the ascetic part of repentence - the re-training of our souls and bodies to conquer the passions and sins that had ruled over us.
Thank you, Peter, for this very helpful clarification. I hadn't thought of it in just that way before - but I will try to from now on...
1) In what terms does Archbishop Averky see the link between body and spirit?
2) How does the author define "asceticism", and how does he arrive at this definition?
3) In parts of this introduction, it seems that the author describes a dualistic worldview. What could be included in the introduction to mitigate this impression?
5) Why is asceticism necessary for every human?
6) “Fear evil habits, more than demons.”- St. Isaac the Syrian. To what end does Vl. Averky offer this quotation?
7) Is there a link between ascetic struggle and "being perfect", as Christ commands us?
Next week: Chapter 1 - Self-Asserting Pride and Christian Humility