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Sunday Conversation Topic - 7/7/19
I am pondering this Theresa and will be back when I get my thoughts in order. Thanks for re-introducing the Sunday Conversation, I have been missing it and Jason
Well, how realistic are romance novels to begin with?While I am not a romance fan in books, there are times when I want to read marriage of convenience romance novels. IRL I would never have wanted a marriage of convenience when I was single!
And PC is extremely new as compared with history. I still remember the first time I heard the term. To me it is the opposite of the pendulum swing from the moral majority--both are a mix of good and bad (not saying which is better, but this is how I see it--when I was told not to chat like a Canadian because it wasn't PC! the eg was wanting to know where someone was from and I am in immigrant myself, just lost my accent right away so don't sound like it. Apparently being interested in where someone is originally from was NOT PC according to this person).
Oh, what a fun topic!For me personally, I don't think fantasy and realistic world-view morals / beliefs should align and in fact most often likely don't. I am sure there are plenty of feminists who enjoy role play where they may be the submissive. Equal treatment or belief in its importance isn't at odds with our own sexual / romantic desires in fantasy (which is what I would consider Regency romance). Isn't that, in part, the point of feminism? For me to have independent control over my body and to experience my own desires without judgement?
This discussion is similar to questions about stay-at-home moms and whether or not they can be feminist. I think feminism comes in many forms. People are complex and often our base desires may not fit our real world way of life.
In short, I absolutely think a feminist can read romance and be a feminist (and they do). I think it is more of an escapist venture than being a product of your own beliefs.
Confession... I used to watch Bad Girls Club, but my husband is a high school teacher and we had a lengthy discussion about young girls watching this show and thinking it is OK to treat each other the way they do on the show. I can't even bring myself to watch it anymore because it is simply a show where women hurt each other. I would prefer feminists reading some questionable romance to supporting a show that promotes women hating other women.
I think my evolving knowledge of and involvement in issues that both explicitly and implicitly impact women shades my personal enjoyment of these books. I realize they are not factual nor do they impact how I personally view myself, but I do not enjoy them as much as contemporary romance where there is a lead female who is a kick-ass professional and doesn't hesitate to blurt out that she has slept with a couple handfuls of people.
While I am all about people doing what they like in consensual sexual relationships—including women being submissive—that is a far cry from books that depict a woman getting literally cornered and kissed/groped without giving any indication of consent.
And again, it is just a book and we all read them and take them with a grain of salt, I just find it harder and harder to connect at all with the characters in those types of situations, which decreases my personal enjoyment.
But, we are all smart, independent, capable women (and men), so who really gives a flying duck what we read when we know what is fact and what is fiction. I don't. And I read many of these books! And enjoy them!
One of my biggest concerns is along the lines of what Meli said above: when people read books that promote these stereotypes or behavior and then use them as a way to justify their own words or actions. And that is not the books fault, it is definitely a larger societal issue but books can feed into it.
Granted, I don't think that is a huge issue with regency romance nor do I think regency romance should go away. Nor will I likely stop reading it! But it is nice to see more and more books that depict women differently.
I have a read only one or two Regency books, and I find them a hoot. Just a get-away read. The actions of the men and women in these stories do not upset me, because we all know, that is how life was for women then. What burns my biscuits, is authors now who still write about women this way-or those who tend to add a scene or two abusing a woman, or making the man look tougher than he is, in the story, that the story would have been just fine without. That book ends in my DNF pile.I am with Nicole though-give me a story about a bad-ass woman anytime.
Nicole R - can totally agree on all counts. I too don't enjoy certain representations of female characters as I get older / grow as a person / get more informed etc. I don't really read romance at all, but in general in other genres I also prefer a kick-ass, dominant female character.
I know nothing of these books, but why should a feminist mean simply one thing or one type of thing? When you support women you support all aspects of women. I remember once when I was a young girl, and I know that was ages ago, my aunt who was one of the first feminists who marched with Gloria Steinem, saying to me that I should be a lawyer, because there weren’t enough female lawyers. And that my field of psychology was already female dominated. I said to her then, of course I support women being lawyers. Of course I think women should be able to do whatever they want to do and succeed. Isn’t that what feminism is? Why shouldn’t I be able to do whatever I choose? I also think a lot about the mommy wars. I have many friends are stay at home moms. Can I admit privately to you guys, that it would not only not be my choice, I have a slight less respect for it. And yet I respect them and their choices. It’s for myself that I have always felt working would be the only way for me. And admittedly I also don’t choose to have a job that’s full-time. I choose a job that allows me the freedom to parent similarly to my friends. But the mommy wars are as awful, As anything else when it comes to feminism. Because some of these women are advocating for women all over the planet and they’re doing the work of volunteering and leader ship and campaigning and later on public service, that we might not be able to do given our busy. I respect that. It’s just a thought.
Amy wrote: "I know nothing of these books, but why should a feminist mean simply one thing or one type of thing? When you support women you support all aspects of women."I agree that you should support all independent and voluntary choices of women.
The point about the regency romance books is not really so much about that. The point about these types of books is that they play into male/female stereotypes (which are not in and of themselves bad so long as the reader recognizes them as fiction and not indicative of how men or women "should" behave) and they include borderline sexual assault (which I do not support for any man or women. Ever. At any time.)
Theresa wrote: "Blame NicoleR...Without her latest review A Wallflower Christmas, this discussion might never have happened.Can you be a feminist and like regency romance? In the #MeToo era, shoul..."
The simple answer to the question is Yes. I'm a feminist and I definitely enjoy regency romances. I like them better when the female protagonist is anachronistically independent, intelligent and generally able to hold her own. It's fantasy and I'm independently intelligent enough to know it for what it is.
I have been indulging in quite a few of these books lately. It's brain candy that helps me get through daily tedium. But, I've been noticing that current authors of this historical genre are creating less passive female characters who have their own feminist leanings. The fantasy always includes a supportive, handsome, rich male protagonist to provide backup.
Amy wrote: "I know nothing of these books, but why should a feminist mean simply one thing or one type of thing? When you support women you support all aspects of women. I remember once when I was a young girl..."Oh, Amy! I do hear you. I had so many feminist friends and instructors who warned me away from teaching! Law, medicine, anything less traditionally female would have pleased them more.
And, because I taught young children while I had young children, I was on the front lines of the mommy wars. I made myself the unpopular teacher choice by putting a Ms in front of my name, and refusing to accept the sympathy of women who assumed I was sad to put my daughter in daycare rather than quit my job. Women can be so unreasonably cruel to other women.
Jgrace wrote: "Women can be so unreasonably cruel to other women"I hate this more than anything else when it comes to feminist issues... back to my point about how I realized it is horrible to support a show like Bad Girls Club. Still ashamed.
What I can't understand is why. Tina Fey discussed this before regarding female comedy writers and the idea their can only be one in the room at a time thus creating a competitive environment that is just completely unnecessary and unreasonable. What are we competing!? We even do it in critiquing other women's looks and clothes. I try to be aware and conscious if I am being hateful toward my fellow women, but that shit is ingrained so deep...
Meli wrote: "Jgrace wrote: "Women can be so unreasonably cruel to other women"I hate this more than anything else when it comes to feminist issues... back to my point about how I realized it is horrible to su..."
It really is so ingrained. I read a book (or rather via Audible) and I want to say it was Lauren Graham's Talking as Fast as I Can: From Gilmore Girls to Gilmore Girls, and Everything in Between where she talked about a new Year's Resolution where she made a new Year's Resolution that instead of falling into old habits of judging, she made sure to think of a complementary thing about each person that she encountered. If I remember correctly, and I remember other people talking about it too, this becomes habit and you get to where you stop thinking the negative and immediately start thinking positive.
I still struggle and still fall into judging habits, more with myself than anyone else, and I try to verbally tell people positive comments all the time. Even strangers. I think about how nice it feels when I get a random complement from someone and I try to do that to others.
I love this discussion and for me it depends on the book. There are some like the one that I read for Christmas in July, Merry and Bright, where even though he was an exec and she wasn't, she was working hard to be accomplished in her own right and she actually held the upper hand throughout the relationship, which was refreshing. There are some books that I end up rolling my eyes and yelling ,"Come on?!?" before hurling the book across the room in disgust from how the woman is portrayed.
In the last Nora Robert's I read, not did the lead lady own her own wildly successful business but she also kicked one of the villain's a**... literally!!!
Charlotte wrote: "she talked about a new Year's Resolution where she made a new Year's Resolution that instead of falling into old habits of judging, she made sure to think of a complementary thing about each person that she encountered. If I remember correctly, and I remember other people talking about it too, this becomes habit and you get to where you stop thinking the negative and immediately start thinking positive. "I love this! I need to do this more and was actually thinking about it this morning, or specifically thinking about trying to think positive. I returned to work after a 2 week vacation so I needed that positivity today more than ever ;P
I always want to compliment random people (for various reasons) but never do because I am worried they will think I am a weirdo or trying to butter them up for a cold sales pitch or something.
Meli wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "she talked about a new Year's Resolution where she made a new Year's Resolution that instead of falling into old habits of judging, she made sure to think of a complementary thing..."I have a big problem with overthinking and that's actually part of the reason I do the random compliments. I always have to remind myself of two things when I do it:
1. What is the worst that can happen
2. It's none of my business what other people think of me (what I have going on in my head is probably way worse than what they really think of me and I reframe my thinking to try not to worry about it because in reality, what good does it do)
Charlotte wroteI still struggle and still fall into judging habits, moreo with myself than anyone else, and I try to verbally tell people positive comments all the time. Even strangers. I think about how nice it feels when I get a random complement from someone and I try to do that to others.I do this too-most times people are welcoming, and thrilled that I noticed their hair color, or the fantastic shoes (I am a shoe whore)-other times they look at me like I am crazy old lady...I just shrug those off. I suffer from chronic pain, so I know what a good word or an act of kindness from a stranger does for me.
@Meli-honestly it seems as though this competition between women is always present and you are right that it has been ingrained in us. The only way for women to become more powerful is to have the support of other women IMO.
Charlotte wrote: "In the last Nora Robert's I read, not did the lead lady own her own wildly successful business but she also kicked one of the villain's a**... literally!!!."I loved this in her last book!
Ugh, I am going to sound like such a curmudgeon, but I do try to be very cognizant when I compliment others, especially people I work with and my friends' kids. It is different though with people I know v. strangers. I know that in the past my default has been to compliment women and girls are "female" qualities: I like your shoes or your dress or you're so pretty. While, I used to compliment men and boys on "male" qualities: you are so brave, you are so adventurous, that is such a "boy" thing to do.
Over the last 6-7 years, I have made a much more conscious effort to base my compliments on gender-neutral emotional/intellectual traits. I almost always avoid complimenting on physical appearance.
I do still compliment on articles of clothing/accessories that I really like, but try for it not to be the ONLY thing I compliment on and make an effort to compliment men as well (especially if I notice great socks or a fun tie!).
And, there are always exceptions to the rule. You are supposed to tell a good friend she looks amazing on her wedding day. Plus, she likely already knows that I think she kicks ass in general.
And, I do enjoy complimenting strangers, I think it brightens people's days. Obviously, those compliments tend to be clothing/accessories, but, even more than compliments, I just try to be nice to people. I make eye contact and smile (in a noncreepy way. At least I think it is noncreepy) or comment on something totally neutral like the weather (so cliche but it works).
Sometimes I am not nice though or it is an effort. Case in point: every single day before I get coffee! lol.
I’m a feminist. But what is wrong with being pretty? Or complimented for pretty? This is where I always think we have gone too far.
Nicole R wrote: "Ugh, I am going to sound like such a curmudgeon, but I do try to be very cognizant when I compliment others, especially people I work with and my friends' kids. It is different though with people I..."I don't overthink it. If I like what you are wearing, regardless of gender, then I'm going to tell you so. Especially if it's a really cool pair of glasses or kick butt shoes.
If I think you did something else amazing, running a race mainly because that's the main thing that all my friends do, then I'm telling you.
Amy wrote: "I’m a feminist. But what is wrong with being pretty? Or complimented for pretty? This is where I always think we have gone too far."I think the problem arises when we only compliment girls on being pretty. I believe it reinforces a gender stereotype that girls are valued more for their looks than other aspects of their personality.
Instead, I choose to tell little girls that they are smart, compassionate, brave, good helpers, valued leaders, and creative problem solvers in addition to telling them they are pretty on occasion.
There is a lot of research out there related to the psychological impacts of reinforcing gender stereotypes through gender-normative compliments.
And that goes for boys as well, it doesn't just impact girls. Boys are often told to "man up" or not complimented for being emotional, sympathetic, or compassionate--traits that are "girl-like." Those are damaging too.
But, I digress. This convo has veered from from its original intent! lol
Nicole R wrote: "One of my biggest concerns is along the lines of what Meli said above: when people read books that promote these stereotypes or behavior and then use them as a way to justify their own words or actions. And that is not the books fault, it is definitely a larger societal issue but books can feed into it. "The older I get, the less patience I have for this, but it goes beyond women. There are murder novels out here with things so horrifying I've wondered if it would give certain types of people more ideas.
Deleted most of this so as to not hijack this thread!
Joanne wrote: "The only way for women to become more powerful is to have the support of other women IMO.."Absolutely true!
Ok I'm late to the party but have a few cents to throw in there:1) On Regency Romance:
I've never read any of these, but I hope readers see the same situations as they'd see a fantasy, dystopian, or other wildly outrageous book. Are readers using this as an "escape" as others have mentioned? Or are readers taking these actions seriously? I think /hope most readers are using this as entertainment value only and not reading too much into it.
I think the problem lies where the reader can/cannot/choose not to separate their own world with the world they're reading. I can't say too much since I haven't read these books, but I know when I read historical fiction, or something like that- it is both an opportunist to learn about previous ways of life, and appreciate how far we've come.
2) On Readers and Stereotypes:
I remember when the 50 Shades series got big, and half the community was like "YAY", but there were lots of articles about how the relationship that Christian Grey built was EXTREMELY unhealthy by actual S&M standards. The problem isn't the subject, the problem is how the characters are representing the subject. The book normalized abusive behavior. Are these regency romances normalizing bad behavior? If so, is this seen as "sexy" or is this seen as a "problem"?
3) On Feminism/ Stay at home motherhood:
I do consider myself a feminist. I think part of the power of feminism for me is that it based around the freedom of choice stemming from equality. Do I think being a stay at home mom is anti-feminist? It depends. If the man is forcing the woman to stay at home, then probably. If the woman is choosing to do this no. I'd love to be a stay at home mom when that time in my life comes, and I don't think that is anti-feminist of me to wish for.
My biggest gear to grind on that subject is just the praise men get for simple childcare. One of my friends recently became a stay-at-home dad, and all he gets is compliments about how great of a dad he is, and people tell his wife she is SOO LUCKY to have a dad who cares so much. Yes, he is a great guy- but would a woman be getting these comments? No. Both these people made this child, why is it assumed the mother is the only one to take care of him? My BIGGEST pet peeve re:this? When people say that dad is "babysitting". You don't babysit your own child. And if you see your child so little that it should be considered babysitting, there is your problem.
4) On Gender-specific compliments:
I also try to be actively aware when complimenting children specifically. Instead of calling a girl "pretty" , I ask her questions about school, books she has read, movies, her favorite color. All the same things I'd as a boy of the same age. Doesn't really apply as much to adults (for me), as most adults realize they are more than their complements. I don't want to reinforce that all a little girl has going for her is that she is "pretty", because no one ever told her she was also a good leader, and had skills.
#endnovel
Joi, I could rant about your point 3b all day! I have some good friends who are amazing dads and, honestly, it irks them too. Lol.
It looks like everyone here is pretty much in agreement :)And I am too
I haven’t read specifically regency romances but read my share of trashy romances.
And if I have a problem with them it’s due to bad writing and use of cliches rather than wether their characters can be role models for me or other women.
In other words - I am absolutely feminist, and I’m not a one-dimensional poster about feminism
Me and my friends managed to grow up to be strong and independent women while playing barbies all of our childhood and reading sweet valley high(?).
I hope my girls will as well (not read those books. Just stay awesome)
Not every part of our life need to work coherently with the underlying message. Thankfully people are more complex than that
As to #metoo - I think it’s very important but like anything social media it’s also backfiring, because people dismiss it as a trend rather then listen to what people are saying.
But then - I remember 20 years ago when that movie with Demi Moore (however you spell her name) sexually abusing someone under her - started the exact same discussions with a chauvinist mate (women inventing stuff, being scared to talking to women employees etc)
Great discussion and I wish I had time (and a functioning brain) to read and respond to all! Hopefully while hanging out in the airport waiting for my flight Tuesday night I will do so. And FYI - part of my vacation reading is a Georgette Heyer regency. 🙃😍Just want to throw a couple of comments out there to add to the discussion. And sorry if they don't make a lot of sense....I am a bit brain dead right now.
I obviously like ones involving a strong independent woman over some meek girl in my romances - whether regency or contemporary -- just as I like them in my thrillers and suspense reads. And mysteries. Not for me a steady diet of the helpless female that has to be rescued. But at the same time, when I do encounter one, I don't necessarily consider it something to criticize in the book. Unless she whines a lot. Or is just stupid (like those gothic heroines who go into the cellars even though there is no reason on earth why anyone male or female would go into the cellars). But if by the end she's become stronger, less helpless, I am happy.
I also want to mention a regency romance by Barbara Metzger where the hero is determined to be a virgin on his wedding night, and the difficulties he encounters because he refuses to join in with his comrades at the brothels etc. His masculinity is continually questioned leading him to do things like join Wellington's army. The book, which is a delight and quite funny actually, is Snowdrops and Scandalbroth and along with her Lord Heartless, also told from a male perspective, are two of my favorite humorous regency romances.
I mention them in part because there is also a certain pressure and expectation put on the men of the regency, which the absence of feminism at the time contributed to. Some authors take that topic on, as in these 2 books. But many don't, and I personally as a feminist would love to see more from that perspective - of regency males who did not just conform to their expected role.
Just a word about stay-at-home Moms From the time I was an infant, my mother always worked outside the home - in the early years of their marriage, my parents needed two incomes. Later, when I was in 6th grade, my parents decided that Mom would quit her job and stay at home. I have a letter she wrote to my cousin, encouraging her to continue her schooling rather than pin her hopes on finding a husband right out of high school. Mom had, apparently, recently quit her job. She wrote:
I am STILL working! I'm just not getting paid.
(This experiment lasted a couple of years, while she filled her days with volunteering. Then she started working at a part-time job ... and was back to a full time position by the time I was in 8th grade. She eventually retired at age 73.)
So.... a few years back at a baby shower for a friend there was a trivia game. One question was "What percentage of mothers work?" My answer - 100%, but not all of them are paid. (I didn't win the trivia contest, but got the biggest applause for my answer.)
Joanne wrote: "Where are you off to Theresa?"Santa Fe, NM. It's the weekend of the International Folk Art Market.
Theresa wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Where are you off to Theresa?"Santa Fe, NM. It's the weekend of the International Folk Art Market."
Have Fun!!! and thanks for starting this conversation-I knew it would take off!
Joanne wrote: "Theresa wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Where are you off to Theresa?"Santa Fe, NM. It's the weekend of the International Folk Art Market."
Have Fun!!! and thanks for starting this conversation-I knew it..."
Thanks! Enjoy the conversation!
Book Concierge wrote: "Just a word about stay-at-home Moms From the time I was an infant, my mother always worked outside the home - in the early years of their marriage, my parents needed two incomes. Later, when I wa..."
Such a great story! I should say, that although I made it clear that I worked by choice to both support my family and to make good use of my professional skills, I also let these concerned ( and just a bit judgemental?) women that I appreciated their volunteer help in the classroom. There is no question in my mind that caring for young children and maintaining a home is hard work.
And there's another thing I love about Regency Romances! The characters are always rich people who have servants to handle the chores. We can but dream.
Jgrace wrote: "And there's another thing I love about Regency Romances! The characters are always rich people who have servants to handle the chores. We can but dream."Wait, you mean that I am NOT guaranteed to be rich with a household staff?!? *sound of dreams shattering*
Nicole R wrote: "Joi, I could rant about your point 3b all day! I have some good friends who are amazing dads and, honestly, it irks them too. Lol."While I agree with you both 100 percent about the good dad comments, bear in mind that for many of us we NEVER saw that growing up because as far as I knew no men did that (so if it happened it was rare). Dads were rarely hands on back then, and regardless of whether or not it was right or wrong, I think many people, particularly in my parents' generation see this differently. My dad didn't change a diaper until 1972 when the youngest was born--and that's just how it was done (my mother wasn't a feminist until she was over 40, I was from the age of 9).
One of the things I'm finally learning is that many times it's better to take a compliment as intended kindly by the giver--many people are genuinely happy to see this but haven't seen it enough to not know that they shouldn't be paying the dad a compliment.
Karin, I definitely give older people some leeway as I recognize they are speaking from their experience. And things have come a long way. But, I do not accept the “great dad” compliment from people my age. And it is shocking how many people I hear that from. And my friends never are rude to people when they give these compliments that are rife with gender discrimination (unless the person is just an asshat), but they do take the opportunity to graciously say “thank you, he is a wonderful dad, no doubt about that, but....” I think you can graciously accept a compliment and also use it as an opportunity to shed light on a gender bias.
My generation is kind of this mixture of truly more equal parenting and yet the biases of the past still remain. A transition period for sure. And one for the better, in my opinion! We just have some work to do continue shedding light on these issues.
It is like older men at my job who used to call me things like “sweetheart.” It is how things were done in their day, they certainly did not explicitly mean any harm by it, but I still had to have a private word with a few of them to explain that I did not appreciate that, why it was inappropriate, and ask them to stop. They all 100% did stop, and one man was truly appalled that he had never noticed he was doing it!
Sometimes the first step to fighting gender discrimination is to kindly point out small, everyday things that build up to put women down. It often opens up a larger dialogue as well!
It's like Chris Rock says, "why should you get a compliment for shit you're supposed to do?!" or something like that...
Meli wrote: "It's like Chris Rock says, "why should you get a compliment for shit you're supposed to do?!" or something like that..."Hahaha! Meli, you are breathing today! That is so amazing! Congratulations!
I’m late to this conversation, but agree with all of your points. I sometimes catch myself singing my husband’s praises as he is very domestically inclined, but as Meli says it’s ‘shit he’s supposed to do’ so I shouldn’t feel compelled to point it out. I think it’s because it’s the exception from what I can see amongst my friends. I am constantly stunned by how little the male partners of some of my friends participate in the running of their households. I have a friend whose husband literally does nothing. He has also told her that he’ll leave her if she puts on weight, and that she must wear gstrings at all times. She just laughs it off. My Dad did nothing to ‘help’ my mum. He would just sit there waiting to be fed. We used to laugh because if Mum was out and the sun went down, he wouldn’t even turn the light on. He’d just sit in the dark in front of the TV like a baby bird waiting for her. The mind boggles!
Nicole R wrote: "Meli wrote: "It's like Chris Rock says, "why should you get a compliment for shit you're supposed to do?!" or something like that..."Hahaha! Meli, you are breathing today! That is so amazing! Con..."
Not dead yet!
There's Susie! I was wondering when you would jump in...
I get a little irked when people complain about lack of help from their partner though... you control the boundaries and expectations in your relationships. I know it is hard to do, but necessary. And a lot of times women assume the man will figure it out if they mope around or complain a lot but you gotta be straight forward with people.
I have someone specific in mind who was relating a story about her husband not helping out at a past birthday and I thought it unhealthy to hang on to that bitterness... not to mention she would've known that is his personality before procreating / marrying him :P
But, in the end, you gotta let people deal with their own lives. I gotta stop judging people! Only Wednesday and I have already failed!
My husband is actually exceptional. I don’t tell him often enough. Truly. I get annoyed with him a whole hell of a lot. And his over anxiety could send me to the roof sometimes. But he is exceptional. I think I rarely tell him. I think a lot of dads of our friends and our kids parents are truly exceptional. I hate to say it, but in some ways I think we have come to expect it, maybe even taking it a little bit for granted. There is nothing my husband doesn’t or wouldn’t do for our kids, our family, and our house. Truth be told he does much more of the previously known feminine jobs at the house. I think these days dads don’t get special praise for that. We are just too busy! But then again, I think my dad was pretty wonderful. And somewhat ahead of his time. I’m not sure if I notice or worry about whether or not he’s getting compliments. I think we’re just much more focused on making our lives work. I think what I’m trying to say is that it’s in someways become everyday, or at least around here, that the dads are pretty awesome. I think no one really thinks of it as much of a gender split. I think I hear more in terms of marriage and relationship where gender roles become much more prominent. And look there are still some things that the dads could never do. Like give birth and breast-feed. And I never would have traded those experiences. I’m not so much afraid of gender differences. Like with everything else in the world, we each have a contribution to everything. It’s all a part of the package
Nicole R wrote: "Karin, I definitely give older people some leeway as I recognize they are speaking from their experience. And things have come a long way. But, I do not accept the “great dad” compliment from peo..."
Yes, I agree--to me anyone 40 or younger should NOT be giving those compliments! People in their 40s, it depends on where they are in their 40s, where they grew up and a few other things (in part their attitude, too--if it's done the same way the compliment a great mom, sure)., people over 50 I am more lenient--yes there are people over 50 who have done this, but it really was NOT common back when the over 50 crowd were in their 20s.
BUT here's another thought. Until my eldest was 2 3/4 people were always telling me what a great mother I was. Once her Aspie traits started spilling over to tantrums, etc, it was considered my fault by many. So I think for any age, I also consider how the compliment is made regarding being a good dad.
I have had people tell me I'm a good mother and a bad mother and various other things. Or give me looks (I didn't have anywhere to leave my kids).
Well, they didn't say "bad mother" like that, but it was implied. Even after we got a diagnosis, there were some who knew Aspie kids who didn't have public meltdowns...
Amy wrote: "My husband is actually exceptional. I don’t tell him often enough. Truly. I get annoyed with him a whole hell of a lot. And his over anxiety could send me to the roof sometimes. But he is exception..."Good points!
Karin, forgot to mention on the other thread - if you’d like to come to the author event it’s at Stellina’s in Watertown. Just call them to tell them you’re coming so they have a seat for you. But I’ll definitely be there.
Amy wrote: "My husband is actually exceptional. I don’t tell him often enough. Truly. I get annoyed with him a whole hell of a lot. And his over anxiety could send me to the roof sometimes. But he is exception..."I'm wondering if Dads need that special praise though. Shouldn't it just be the norm, that a member of the household pulls their weight, and that it isn't seen as a marvel? I think I praise my husband, not to him but to others, too much. I must stop!
Meli wrote: "Nicole R wrote: "Meli wrote: "It's like Chris Rock says, "why should you get a compliment for shit you're supposed to do?!" or something like that..."Hahaha! Meli, you are breathing today! That i..."
I'm here!
A scenario I was part of recently made my blood boil, and I was the only person that seemed to care. My eldest son plays AFL (Australian rules football for the uninitiated) and every so often there is an event at the clubrooms called Grub at the Club (grub is Australian slang for food) which is hosted by different age groups. It involves each family bringing food which we then serve to the whole club, which is a few hundred people. When it was our turn to host, all of the mothers were in the kitchen serving and organising, and all of the fathers were standing around drinking beer. NOT ONE man helped (my husband was away on business or he would have, but there I go again...). I was floored and kept mentioning it, but all I got back was comments like 'typical' or laughter. I was furious!! Am I the only person that thinks this is unacceptable?!
Susie, I am low key in love with your husband based solely on what I know of him through social media. I feel like he would not only have been in the kitchen helping, but would have been harassing the men tiger their asses in the kitchen too!!
I’m late here, too. My husband was a stay at home Dad with both my boys. I was the parent with the potential to make more money, so I reluctantly went to work. Both the kids are terrific adults, and he did a great job, but I’m not going to give him all the credit, because I may not have been there during the work day, but I was there the other 16 hours. The whole chores/helping around the house is a whole other thing- the hubster does help, but I swear he loads the dishwasher and puts dishes away in the wrong places on purpose, so that he can get out of those chores...
Once upon a time, I read regency romances, when I needed to read, but wanted something I could set aside to run after littles. I remember liking books with headstrong heroines, who attracted headstrong but respectful men. Julia Quinn springs to mind as an example.
Those books with simpering ladies with heaving bosoms just ticked me off- my great-grandmother was a spunky, headstrong woman born in 1901, and she told me that her mother and grandmother were, as well. So I’m pretty sure women who knew their own minds existed in Regency England, too. The whole idea of women being seen and not heard—bah.
I also ask kids what they have read or learned, or compliment them on their creativity, intelligence or kickass skills.
Tracy wrote: The whole chores/helping around the house is a whole other thing- the hubster does help, but I swear he loads the dishwasher and puts dishes away in the wrong places on purpose, so that he can get out of those chores..."Oh Tracy-LoL-I have accused my husband of the same thing!
Here's a small piece of my story:
I was a career gal for nearly 25 years. Fortune shined me at age 35, when I became pregnant (my company did not know at this point) I was offered a substantial buy-out. A decision was made and I stayed at home for 2 years. At 2, I put my daughter in day care and began a small firm, working at home. I did this until she was in 3rd grade. I then became a full time stay at home Mom. Through out all of this my husband worked, at times 12-16 hours days,(mostly on the 2nd or 3rd shift)- so nearly all responsibility in the home was mine(I say nearly all because I draw the line at cutting grass and washing windows).
Needless to say when he retired, he was absolutely clueless. Then I became ill and the old dog had to learn new tricks. I remember one time he came into the room and said "I cannot believe you have done this all by yourself all these years"-Mind you, there was no childcare involved as my daughter had left for college-
Play Book Tag
Books mentioned in this topic
Snowdrops and Scandalbroth (other topics)Lord Heartless (other topics)
Talking as Fast as I Can: From Gilmore Girls to Gilmore Girls, and Everything in Between (other topics)
Merry and Bright (other topics)
A Wallflower Christmas (other topics)
More...
Can you be a feminist and like regency romance? In the #MeToo era, should contemporary writers of regency romance avoid including forced kisses and marriage and dowery negotiations handled by a woman's male relatives without her input? And what of that dichotomy of the rake who has gambled and whored his way across England and Europe while the heroines are all these virgins with their purity...and lack of any experience ... intact?
Feminism and the regency romance - can they co-exist?
I am absolutely a feminist. And I absolutely adore regency romance. So what does that say about me as a feminist? It does not say I consider the mores shown as acceptable. It just means I enjoy my romance set in a past that is as foreign as it can be - among the idle nobility where marriage is a business negotiation, women and children are property, only men have power of any kind and where women and children have zero recourse should the men in charge of their lives be abusive or drunkards or addicted to gambling. It is also a world where flirtation was an artform, women controlled the social world, and single men from good family with wealth intact are targets, often with traps set to trick them into marrying a particular daughter. Even the beloved Jane Austen wrote all this into her books, albeit more gently. And the Christmases described in these books...divine!
I don't get outraged at the un-PC, un-feminist, portrayals because I know they are not how my life is lived. I have been reading these since I was a tweenie, and never considered the regency world to be a model nor these books as giving me some kind of lesson in what is acceptable.
Although... there is some similarity between the Prince Regent and Trump...just sayin'