There but for the: Sweets & Nightcap (Ripe Notes Welcome) (Jul 2019)

[Ami]

You have turned that very last page, Anything immediately come to mind?

Please use this course to discuss your final thoughts for Ali Smith’s, there but for the... What say you?

[LindaJ^]

Marvelous, brilliant, witty, charming, delightful …….

[Bretnie]

Makes me want to re-read it right away to go pick up on things I missed the first time!

I loved bringing it full circle to the first short story that made NO SENSE to me when I first read it!

The thing that has my brain turning is that the first story (Miles on his bike with the blinders talking to his younger self) is obviously the story he wrote after talking with Brooke, but that's not what was on the paper airplane, right?! Inception!

I loved that we didn't know what happened to Miles. Unless I missed clues and everyone can fill me in. :)

And I LOVED that he had left the door unlocked for months. That just killed me!

[Robert]

This book is why Ali Smith is one of my favourite authors. Clever, witty and a lot to pick apart. If I reread TBFT in five years time I'll discover new things.

[Ami]

I turned that final page and felt a smile creep across my face. Instead of a single word, a song came to mind...click on image.




final thoughts to come, I want to enjoy this for a while!

[Kathleen]

Great thoughts, everyone. You all helped me through this one, and also following Marc's reading diary! Very profound, Marc.

I wasn't sure during the last chapter how I was going to feel about this. I love Brooke, but following her thought process was getting tedious.

Then I got to this part: "Nobody knocked." I stopped reading and put the book down, thinking that may be what it's about. All this judgment and misunderstanding between these parties, and all anyone had to do was knock. Knock, knock, who's there? We don't knock because we don't want to know. Because we're afraid when we hear the answer, we'll feel like fools, just like we feel when we hear the punch line of the knock knock joke.

[Gregory]

My first Ali Smith, and now I cannot wait to read more. The opening three pages seemed intentionally bizarre and mysterious to me, a brave dare to the casual reader tempted to a preemptive DNF decision. But after that it took off like a shot: quickly sketching an intriguing plot driver (new dinner party guest Miles mysteriously locks himself in his hosts’ bedroom for months) and introducing us to the often playful and witty characters and language that enliven the rest of the book. She does a wonderful job developing shifting viewpoints and key characters of different generations, ranging from precocious nine-year-old Brooke to semi-alienated teen Josie Lee, to 84-year-old May. Packed with ideas, puns, music and intriguing loose ends that seem to invite speculative thinking and rereadings.

[Marc]

Kathleen, I'm glad you got something out of my ramblings! It feels like so much of contemporary culture is about helping us stay distracted and not knowing. The depth of our communications/connections seemingly runs inverse to the speed at which we can communicate and the number of options we have in which to do so!

Gregory, such a treat to know there's so much Smith ahead for you to read (still, a lot for me, too, even though this wasn't my first). I do love how so much of her writing "invites[s] speculative thinking and rereadings." She challenges the reader, but in a very entertaining and playful way.

[Bretnie]

I just had a thought, which maybe you guys have already discussed and I've already forgotten.

I like the central theme of Greenwich Park physically tying the characters to a time-related location. Time is a bit fluid in the book with characters' stories jumping around in time and their connections with each other being from different times in their life. Plus the evolution of the story itself being over roughly a year.

I'm not sure what my point is, just that I liked how time is a theme in the book.

[Ami]

Bretnie wrote: "I just had a thought, which maybe you guys have already discussed and I've already forgotten.

I like the central theme of Greenwich Park physically tying the characters to a time-related location...."

Just to clarify, Greenwich Park resides within Greenwich, and Greenwich is where the dinner party takes place...is this correct, or no?

[Ami]

We're a little over the half way mark in our discussion for there but for the, and I was wondering what is the most bizarre, if not memorable, encounter with someone you met in any social setting such as a dinner party... Can you one-up, Ali Smith? :P

[Kathleen]

Bretnie wrote: "I just had a thought, which maybe you guys have already discussed and I've already forgotten.

I like the central theme of Greenwich Park physically tying the characters to a time-related location...."

I hadn't thought of this, Bretnie, but of course! The way you can straddle the line at the Greenwich Observatory, or jump from one side to the other, she is doing that in this book. So glad you mentioned this.

[Ami]

Bretnie wrote: "I just had a thought, which maybe you guys have already discussed and I've already forgotten.

I like the central theme of Greenwich Park physically tying the characters to a time-related location...."

Kathleen wrote: "Bretnie wrote: "I just had a thought, which maybe you guys have already discussed and I've already forgotten.

I like the central theme of Greenwich Park physically tying the characters to a time-r..."

I thought of Greenwich in terms of visible-invisible borders, the importance of it as a platform for the story, and a means to drive the views of the dinner guests forward (112). Towards the end, we read Brooke to be crossing, back and forth, the Meridian Line; she’s as free as can be and bound to neither side. Although it’s a line, it doesn’t resemble her notion of a border, she does not need a passport. That scene brought me back to the dinner conversation where Richard talks about the world being borderless, and she quipping back with Except for the borders where they check your passport for hours (146).

I thought Greenwich Park and Greenwich to encompass two different ideals, it’s why I needed clarification because I couldn’t recall when May Young was at the park...does the park serve as a place all the characters can be tied to at various points in time?

[Marc]

Borders, the Prime Meridian, time zones... all constructs. Invisible divisions that allow us to organize, control, or arrange things, but completely made up. Hadn't thought too much on this until thinking more about the physical location of the setting, as well as its symbolism, thanks to this thread. Yet these things impact us so much on a daily basis and many times in a subconscious way...

Not sure I can one up Smith's dinner party weirdness but I did once work with quite an odd character. This person was in management and if asked a question they did not know the answer to, would just stare at you as if you hadn't said a word. It was so disarming that you started to question whether you had just imagined your own speaking. They would just pretend you hadn't spoken and not break eye contact.

[Bretnie]

Marc, that is super weird.

Thanks you guys for expanding on my thoughts about Greenwich and time - I think that's where I was trying to get and you guys made the connections for me. I love the concept of visible-invisible borders and how that ties to the characters stories.

[Ami]

Marc wrote: "Borders, the Prime Meridian, time zones... all constructs. Invisible divisions that allow us to organize, control, or arrange things, but completely made up. Hadn't thought too much on this until t..."

Invisible divisions that allow us to organize, control, or arrange things, but completely made up.
A-Ha! This makes sense to me!

Manager
My mother would do this when we were younger, it was a blank stare but one that implied “you should know this, don’t ask me stupid questions.” My sister and I have long known she did this because she didn’t know herself. Smh.

[Ami]

Bretnie wrote: "Marc, that is super weird.

Thanks you guys for expanding on my thoughts about Greenwich and time - I think that's where I was trying to get and you guys made the connections for me. I love the con..."

I absolutely understand what you were saying about Greenwich and time zones now! You my friend have just chiseled another facet into the understanding of this novel. Bravo!!! ;)

[Ginny]

According the the star rating, five stars says "It was amazing." Not for the faint of heart. A jigsaw puzzle full of pieces that take focus (and some research) to fit together. Just like many people working on a jigsaw puzzle can fill out the picture more quickly, the readers in the group found the fit for many pieces that I had missed. Group reads are always fun, but this time the group input was essential for me. I would have missed so much.

And the discovery continues. I really enjoyed this pun: What what what? the child said. You’re sinking. What are you sinking about? So I used it in conversation, and was told that it had been part of a training video about safety for workers in a coal mine. I found that this joke has been around for a long time. And the fun continues in the comments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmOTp...

Perhaps this is the book to have on the proverbial desert island. Surprises with each re-read.

[Pamela]

I liked this but didn't love it - I found the book very similar to Autumn in both wordplay and characters (silent old person, precocious child etc) but preferred that book as it seemed more taut and focussed than this one. There but for the. started well, but sort of drifted away in the second half.

The description of the dinner party was a highlight for me, and I did like the way Miles slipped away from all the fuss. The puns and jokes here were overdone for me, often too facile and childish, and I preferred the more serious moments that Smith slipped in to jolt the reader.

I still think Smith is great and would read more from her, I've just preferred her other books to this one so far.

[Mark]

And great thanks for all the readers that brought out things I had never noticed or merely glossed over as I turned the pages! It was also a treat to "revisit" a place I had actually briefly visited decades ago (before the Cutty Sark burned). At the time, I didn't know about the foot tunnel.
Looking forward to Spring.

[Ami]

Miles holding himself up in the Lee’s home, the overall concept of the act brings me back to two comments; one made by Greg during the Main Course, who asked if it may be seen as a form of artistic protest; and, Anna Hardie the other when she questions one’s real state of being living in a free world. These invisible borders we’ve been noticing, how prevalent does that line between art and reality become when applied to Miles, as an example of modern living art? It’s pretty wild, isn’t it? Smith incites excitement, perhaps even a brief laugh when she brings to light the importance of concepts that enrich and make for the betterment of society in her obscure manner. I would think it motivates one to delve deeper, seeing the other underlying messaging clearly. The notion of freedom and being free is heavily referenced throughout the novel, and propels forward our own thoughts regarding freedom. When we live in countries that allow its citizens to freely worship, speak, bear arms, etc.; yet, we find ourselves inclined to have armed men outside of our mosques, temples, synagogues and churches to enable said freedom- it does beg the question Anna Hardie contemplates early in the novel when she says:

Was it some wanky kind of middle-class game about how we’re all prisoners even though we believe we’re free as a bird (66-67)?

How free can a society be, living in fear? In the end, I come away thinking there but for the is an in-depth analysis of, in both its figurative and literal definitions, the absent presence state of middle class society; and, what it means to have freedom, to be free. Ali Smith continually drew from the arts and music, politics and socioeconomic class structure to drive forward the impact of personal convictions regarding each. Through the voices of various characters and their effect on one another, their effect on us, we slowly begin to realize how the bizarre act of one man enabled us to uncover a plethora of invisible boundaries we too happen to: live behind, hide behind, crossover without noticing, find solace from, etc..

While I believe this may be one of the best books I have read in a while, I couldn’t believe how restricted in thought I felt at the turn of that last page, making it difficult to corral my final thoughts for it as your host this month. So, I worked around it and did it in song, it’s why I posted my favorite Paul Anka cover song. “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” was originally performed by Nirvana, an anthem for a generation that couldn’t have given a damn about having an anthem, allegedly. Dubbed the ambivalent to tradition generation, the song speaks to the both the apathy and necessary disruptive qualities of society, Smith’s focus in much of the novel. I also thought by picking a cover, it would speak to Smith’s ability to illuminate ever day social issues sometimes taken for granted, affecting society across the board, by means of approaching them from unique angles. Paul Anka singing a Nirvana song big band-style does much of the same; the song, familiar; the voice and melody, unfamiliar (to some). It prompts one to listen closely; what was once unrecognizable we become au courant with

Sometimes a nuanced approach to seeing things in life that quickly become monotonous is all we need to rejuvenate ourselves, advocating better presence, even if for a moment. I think that’s what there but for the is, it’s a cover for a song that’s been been sung time and time again; but, it sounds different. The content of the song remains true and constant, and all one can hope for is that this will be the moment where the message will not fall upon deaf ears.

[Ami]

Well, we're about there with a little over a week to go until this discussion party comes to an official end. I would like to thank all of you for coming and participating as you have! Quite honestly, I'm pleasantly surprised at the level of activity in these courses, keeping in mind we're in the heart of the summer... the flurry of interactions across the platform, in general, are usually minimal to non-existent. Clearly, this group doesn't have that problem with the level of readership in here! I can't thank you enough for taking out the time to indulge me in discussing this novel and engaging with one another as much as you have, on top of everything else going on, in these vacation inspiring months. So, a heartfelt thank you to each and every one of you! You've been the best guests, and I can't wait to see you again in the near future.

I do hope you are satisfied with the discussion, and will leave filled to the brim with new insights for there but for the, by Ali Smith. However, if there's anything you believe we should address, or want to discuss an aspect of the novel I may have overlooked, please don't hesitate to bring up those points as we still have time.

Thank you, again, for being present with us! :)

[Ami]

Mark wrote: "And great thanks for all the readers that brought out things I had never noticed or merely glossed over as I turned the pages! It was also a treat to "revisit" a place I had actually briefly visite..."

Hey! It was a pleasure meeting you and discussing this novel with you as well. Thank you so much for participating, I really do appreciate it!

[Ami]

Pamela wrote: "I liked this but didn't love it - I found the book very similar to Autumn in both wordplay and characters (silent old person, precocious child etc) but preferred that book as it see..."

Aw, crikey! I do wonder if I myself wouldn't be in your shoes had this been my second book by Ali Smith, it wasn't easy like I had wanted. I was originally thrown off by the quirky nature of her narrative, under the impression it would be a light summer read...sorbet for my brain, as you say :P. Well, it turned out to be work, Pamela; so, maybe, I had to make the sorbet in order to eat it? LOL

I would need some time before jumping into another one of hers, not in the current head space I'm in. It's time for a nice little classic literary palette cleanser.

I love it that you made time for this, Pamela, that you made time for me as you always do. It doesn't go unnoticed!

Chin-Chin, my dear!

[Ami]

Ginny wrote: "According the the star rating, five stars says "It was amazing." Not for the faint of heart. A jigsaw puzzle full of pieces that take focus (and some research) to fit together. Just like many peopl..."

No, definitely not for the faint of heart, Ginny. Yet, it was and I'm grateful you were here to discuss it with us. Thank you so much for the conversation, elevating it with your contributions. Loved, loved, loved, reading it with you!

:)

[Ami]

Kathleen wrote: "Great thoughts, everyone. You all helped me through this one, and also following Marc's reading diary! Very profound, Marc.

I wasn't sure during the last chapter how I was going to feel about this..."

Ah, I've been wanting to respond to your comment since your posting it...it had to be perfect. So, here goes..

Knock knock.

Who’s there?

Theodore!

Theodore who?

Theodore wasn’t open so I knocked.

Thank you for coming and discussing this novel with us, I loved reading your commentary throughout the courses; starting with your gut-level aversion to clever writing! Smh. Your post in Amuse Bouche had me laughing out loud, it was so visceral for me. Hilarious! I also appreciated you keeping an open mind to this novel, despite your apprehensions. Sucked you in, eh? Um-hmm :)

Cheers, Kathleen! Great to see you!

[Ami]

LindaJ^ wrote: "Marvelous, brilliant, witty, charming, delightful ……."

Thanks for stopping by, dropping off these five gems! Sure, five words works great too! Ha! And, all fitting to a T.

Cheers!

[Kathleen]

Ami wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "Great thoughts, everyone. You all helped me through this one, and also following Marc's reading diary! Very profound, Marc.

I wasn't sure during the last chapter how I was going t..."

Oh, Ami, the perfect knock knock joke for this book! Thank you for being such a gracious host for this party. None of us were ever tempted to escape and find a room to hide in. :-)

What a great discussion everyone!

[Pamela]

Ami wrote: "Pamela wrote: "I liked this but didn't love it - I found the book very similar to Autumn in both wordplay and characters (silent old person, precocious child etc) but preferred that..."

Thanks to you for giving me the heads up on this one, you know so well the kind of books that I can't resist! Very interesting even if not my favourite Smith and I loved the discussions here.