Book XI. The Origin of the Two Cities

[Nemo]

Part II of the City of God treats of the origin, history, and destinies of the two cities, the earthly and the heavenly. In Book XI, Augustin shows how the two cities were formed originally, by the separation of the good and bad angels; and treats of the creation of the world, as it is described in the beginning of the book of Genesis.

[Nemo]

Reason and Revelation

In chapter 3, Augustine explains why divine revelation is necessary for our knowledge, and why it is consistent with reason.

For if we attain the knowledge of present objects by the testimony of our own senses, whether internal or external, then, regarding objects remote from our own senses, we need others to bring their testimony, since we cannot know them by our own, and we credit the persons to whom the objects have been or are sensibly present.  Accordingly, as in the case of visible objects which we have not seen, we trust those who have, (and likewise with all sensible objects,) so in the case of things which are perceived by the mind and spirit, i.e., which are remote from our own interior sense, it behoves us to trust those who have seen them set in that incorporeal light, or abidingly contemplate them.

XI.3

[Nemo]

Following the same logic as quoted above, Augustine also explains why Jesus must be "at once God and man", in order to lead man to God.

For this is the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.  For it is as man that He is the Mediator and the Way.  Since, if the way lieth between him who goes, and the place whither he goes, there is hope of his reaching it; but if there be no way, or if he know not where it is, what boots it to know whither he should go?  Now the only way that is infallibly secured against all mistakes, is when the very same person is at once God and man, God our end, man our way.
XI.2

[Nemo]

It is interesting to note that, long before the modern string theory, the ancients have contemplated the possibility of infinite worlds, and whether space and time have limits.

In Chapter 6, Augustine explains why Christians believe God is beyond space-time: the world was not created in time, but with time. There is no "time" beyond the created world, where time is a measure of motion and change.

He also points out that the "day"s in Genesis' creation count cannot be the 24-hour day as we know, because the Sun wasn't created until the 4th "day".

[Ruth]

Yes, I was also very struck by a wonderful chapter in the Confessions, where Augustine spoke about time and matter and their relation in a very modern way. Just as here in Chapter 6 : I do not see how it can be said that he created the world after expanses of time, unless it is claimed that, prior to the world, there was already some created being by virtue of whose motions time was able to pass.

[Ruth]

In chapter 4 he writes beautifully about the inspiration of Scripture: this wisdom also transfers itself to holy souls, and makes them friends of God and prophets, and tells them inwardly and soundlessly of God’s works.

I was only wondering how Augustin would go about determining which prophets to believe. It seems to me that a large part of the previous ten books were a refutation of other self-acclaimed revelations.

Perhaps we need revelations and inspiration as a starting point for our reasonings, but then we still need to use our brain to sift and ponder which of them can stand the test of truth.

[Ruth]

chapter 10: From this there comes to mind a startling but nevertheless true observation: this world could not be known to us if it did not already exist, but it could not exist if it were not already known to God.

I think I recently read something similar in Simone Weil. We would not exist if God didn't (want to) know us. A wonderful thought. I really appreciate being known.

[Ruth]

In chapter 11 Augustin says "if they were in error they weren't happy".

It seems he didn't believe in blissful ignorance?

[Nemo]

Ruth wrote: "In chapter 11 Augustin says "if they were in error they weren't happy".

It seems he didn't believe in blissful ignorance?"

Ignorance is blissful only if the ultimate reality is miserable (and so the more one knows about reality, the more miserable he becomes). If the ultimate reality is God who is the Supreme Good, then the more knowledge one has, the more blessed, i.e., God-like, he becomes. In this sense, to be in ignorance is to be in hell.

[Nemo]

When I read the following paragraph, I wasn't expecting the punchline at the end.

Gradations of Being

For, among those beings which exist, and which are not of God the Creator’s essence, those which have life are ranked above those which have none; those that have the power of generation, or even of desiring, above those which want this faculty. And, among things that have life, the sentient are higher than those which have no sensation, as animals are ranked above trees. And, among the sentient, the intelligent are above those that have not intelligence,—men, e.g., above cattle. And, among the intelligent, the immortal such as the angels, above the mortal, such as men. These are the gradations according to the order of nature; but according to the utility each man finds in a thing, there are various standards of value, so that it comes to pass that we prefer some things that have no sensation to some sentient beings. And so strong is this preference, that, had we the power, we would abolish the latter from nature altogether, whether in ignorance of the place they hold in nature, or, though we know it, sacrificing them to our own convenience. Who, e.g., would not rather have bread in his house than mice, gold than fleas? But there is little to wonder at in this, seeing that even when valued by men themselves (whose nature is certainly of the highest dignity), more is often given for a horse than for a slave, for a jewel than for a maid.
-- City of God XI.16

[John]

Nemo wrote: "When I read the following paragraph, I wasn't expecting the punchline at the end.

Gradations of Being
For, among those beings which exist, and which are not of God the Creator’s essence, those whi..."

Nemo, Thank you for pointing out this passage. Somehow, likely in my attempt to get the reading caught up, I missed the punchline in the passage. What a fantastic statement to ponder as a recap of Jesus' words in the Gospels, and as a way to look at our own lives.

[Ruth]

On the last bit of chapter 15: I read those verses in Job 40 and psalm 104 differently. I always see them as wonderful hints at what mysteriously hidden things God also created that seem dark and dangerous to us. It reminds me not to judge too quickly and not to divide everything in black and white.

[Ruth]

Filling the gaps, and reading some parts that I had thus for skipped to keep up, I just came across this interesting sentence in chapter 19: The obscurity of the divine discourse actually serves the useful purpose of giving birth to many views of the truth and bringing them into the light of knowledge, one person understanding the divine words in this way and another in that. At the same time, however, any interpretation of an obscure passage should be confirmed either by the plain evidence of the facts or by other passages which are not open to doubt