Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
Author Resource Round Table
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How NOT to use Goodreads (and other social sites)
That was great! Thanks for a good and humorous reminder.
Bruce wrote: "That was great! Thanks for a good and humorous reminder."You're welcome. It's something that's been bugging me for quite a while, especially in this group. Our moderators seem to be a bit more laid back about the problem, probably because it's a site for both AUTHORS as well as readers and most of our participants seem to be writers (I reserve the term "authors" for someone who is published by a legitimate press OR is self-published and actually selling books hand over fist).
Some of the other groups aren't as forgiving, but either way, the wanna-be makes him/her self look like a fool and I'm trying to help them do better, while reducing the "noise" level in the inappropriate areas.
Wow, so true. Usually, I see the ads placed under the very first heading they see. I don't belong to too many groups, but I've seen it everywhere. I'm a rule reader, so hopefully, I haven't made that mistake. But some people... soooome people. Lord, though, the way you put it is waaay funnier than my personal thoughts on the subject.
Melissa wrote: "Wow, so true. Usually, I see the ads placed under the very first heading they see. I don't belong to too many groups, but I've seen it everywhere. I'm a rule reader, so hopefully, I haven't made th..."Thanks.
OMG! I'm behind on reading my daily eMail from GR and found a guy who not only pooped all over the floor, he hiked his leg on the furniture to boot.I'll cut him some slack and not mention his name since he did that 3 days before I posted this ;-)
LMAO!!! Thank you SO much for that. We can only hope these people take your advice.
Linda wrote: "KnowledgeGeek wrote: "LMAO!!! Thank you SO much for that. We can only hope these people take your advice."Most of them won't, though, because they don't bother to read ANYTHING before they start,..."
Too true. Maybe if we rub their noses in their mess like you do to train a dog ?????
We had a doberman who'd poop on the floor out of spite if we left for an evening and left him "all alone" in the house. Did it right in front of the door once to make sure we got the message.We gave him a message in return.
Good points. Social media is all about interaction. It's for letting people get to know you.
So funny. Like how you addressed this topic with humor. :)
I was so sick of authors spamming discussions, I decided to flag every one that interrupted a thread I was on. If you don't like it - don't tolerate it. Click "flag", specify spam, and explain you have a promotional link in a non-promo discussion. It's removed quite quickly.
These authors don't read the rules, maybe if they get their hands slapped enough times, they'll stop annoying the rest of us.
Though I've not ever posted "BUY MY BOOK" on any SM site, it does seem least appropriate at a website (Goodreads)that is actually built for readers rather than authors.
This was a fantastic post! As a matter of fact, this is exactly what my new book ME! ME! ME! is all about! KIDDING! I loathe spammers on threads with the passion of a thousand suns. I believe the New York Times recently ran an excellent article about how authors should and should not use Goodreads.The best way was to truly become part of a community so you get to know people. Then they get to know you and want to hear about your books. That works.
In all fairness I think some of those that put "buy my book" out first is due to lack of knowledge. I know I have read many times you have to get your book out there. I know this is a very competitive business but could it be that we are eating our young so to speak. Just another thought.
Al wrote: "OMG! I'm behind on reading my daily eMail from GR and found a guy who not only pooped all over the floor, he hiked his leg on the furniture to boot.I'll cut him some slack and not mention his nam..."
LMAO! I'd agree. Read the particular group guidelines - many GR groups don't allow author promotion or if they do in specific places. It doesn't take long to read through and find out.
Don't post JUST about your book - post in other book discussions, general chat etc. Offer help - if a person has a particular skill or experience, for example formatting then it doesn't hurt to help out.
Oh and don't do what an author did on KDP forums - someone posted up a perfectly reasonable question/advice post and some newbie simply posted BUY MY BOOK on the bottom of the post. That is just rude imo.
In response to Shirley's post I recently got into a.... debate with an author who reckoned it was OK to mention one's book at EVERY available opportunity. I disagreed. That is a very fast way to alienate people.
When writing or speaking, avoid the "I" syndrome - excessive utilization of the personal pronouns: I, me, my, mine. As difficult as it may be to comprehend, there are many more important and knowledgeable people than you, me, or even us.Don't beg people to read your book. Write something so good that readers will beg to read it.
Business adage: "Your work speaks for itself. Don't interrupt!"
Something to consider. Readers are diverse, there will ALWAYS be someone who doesn't like a particular book for a variety of reasons, including many the author might not agree with. It happens. Every book will have its fans and its haters. Don't make a fuss, don't comment, move on. What is on the internet stays there. It will be somewhere, on someone's blog, thread or whatever. Treat people how you'd want to be treated. They might sometimes not do the same but you can't expect someone to respect you if you act like a jerk.
Jim wrote: "When writing or speaking, avoid the "I" syndrome - excessive utilization of the personal pronouns: I, me, my, mine. As difficult as it may be to comprehend, there are many more important and knowle..."So well said, Jim - I just printed your post and hung it over my work station as inspiration for the day. Hope that's not kinda stalkerish... I've been lurking around reading discussion threads, determined NOT to comment until I had the lay of the land, but this discussion was too good not to acknowledge. Excellent info for writers, y'all - thank you! LOVE the unruly puppy image - way to correct bad behavior with humor!
Kathy wrote: "Jim wrote: "When writing or speaking, avoid the "I" syndrome - excessive utilization of the personal pronouns: I, me, my, mine. As difficult as it may be to comprehend, there are many more importan..."Kathy,
I have been stalked by professionals; you don't even come close to qualifying as one. Besides, I've never been accused of being inspirational before. Thank you.
Honestly, most of this is common sense. There are places where I can see making errors about where posting your own title is acceptable, for example in a discussion about a book that you believe is similar to your own, but some of the more random stuff? The multiple "buy my book" posts, messages, etc.? Or the brand new arbitrarily placed threads involving a single title?How can anyone think this is either acceptable or effective? Some of it strongly reminds me of the well-meaning souls who dump huge piles of orphaned paperbacks onto my personal space and say, "Here, you read books, don't you?"
It can be kind of like, "Here, you eat food, don't you?"
At least the people who give me paperbacks a) don't expect me to pay for them, and b) are giving me something that probably meets basic standards of literacy.
I do agree with the idea that cautioning newbies away from this behavior is a good idea, as is encouraging them to read the author guidelines, but I'm still kind of amazed that anyone thinks it's a good idea, ever.
Linda wrote: "KnowledgeGeek wrote: "LMAO!!! Thank you SO much for that. We can only hope these people take your advice."Most of them won't, though, because they don't bother to read ANYTHING before they start,..."
Maybe not before they start pooping but while they are pooping, and finally relieved, and blood starts to head back upstairs :o)
Oh and yeah listen to this guy because I am a sucker for good ads about a new author's book. However, if you get a taker and they read, review and recommend your book like crazy, definitely send a thank you at some point to your reader or readers...time is money and posting reviews takes time and a good review that gives a fair rating and entices people into the book without giving away what happens in the book is a very important skill. Heck I've seen authors review books and give away "the" most important parts or surprise endings on Goodreads and just stared in shock and thought ...wow I don't need to read that book now.
Lolz it makes em sound like no talent hack writers
Personally I find the BUY MY BOOK posts are rude. Goodreads not only has millions of readers but it has thousands of authors too and the spammers show disrespect to everyone. If all the authors were to spam threads in this way all the readers would leave. Fortunately most have more courtesy and common sense. There are specific threads in most groups for promotions and you can always pay for an ad to reach more people. Do that and I might read your blurb, spam an otherwise interesting discussion and I will just yawn and switch off. Sorry, but it is rude!
Not that I'm a spammer... as I said before, I'm a rule reader. That being said, I'd never used Goodreads for anything other than a shelf before I started writing. I barely had an internet presence before this year.There are so many of us who want to connect and are trying to do what's suggested and get ourselves out there. I'm pretty sure the first thing I did on most of the groups I joined was to head straight for the "correct" board to hunt for a beta reader then later to post my new release.
All I'm sayin' is that not all of us are out to twist you guys' panties. ;-) Many of us want the relationships AND the opportunities. We're not out to destroy the Goodreads universe. Promise.
Not directed at you, Al. Al, you're funny. My beagle showed her bad-Goodreads skills off today... here, there, everywhere. Heheh
I agree with all that's been said so far. Like Melissa I'd only used Goodreads as a shelf and rarely updated it because I didn't read anything for a while once I started writing (and I set up my own business so that took up all my time).When my book was being prepared for publication my publisher sent me an author pack detailing how I should go about promoting my book. It listed lots of social media accounts etc.
To be fair, digital marketing is my day job so I know better than to just post adverts. However I was new to goodreads groups and where there was a section about introducing your book I used it. I have been guilty of starting a new thread about my book in a relevant section but I wouldn't hijack a thread to mention it unless that was the point of the thread.
I know what I like to read in groups and what I skip so I try not to post anything that I would ignore!
I do understand why authors want to post outside the designated areas because they want to post where the readers are, not where other authors are. But I agree it's highly irritating.
I wish they could understand that, Linda. I wrote a page on it over at HubPages where I have just started a new account to accommodate my articles. I couched it in quite gentle terms; trying to be positive but explaining that Goodreads is actually a readers' site and word of mouth is powerful whether positive or negative. There is a list of Dos and a list of Don'ts but it is a reflective article. It is not just readers that are antagonized by all the pooping, it offends other authors too. If interested the post is here. http://lisamariegabriel.hubpages.com/...
All I'll say is that it's hard enough for a new author to get noticed among all the noise. We aren't all imbeciles, we aren't deliberately trying to annoy people, but being new we still have a lot to learn. We're going to pee on the carpet whether you like it or not, but in time we'll stop making those mistakes and join the rest of the pack. Everybody started somewhere, so let's help each other instead of sticking our noses up and tutting when some new indie makes a faux pas :-)
Of course, if someone's deliberately being annoying - well, as had been said - negative word of mouth spreads just as easily!
Kat
@Kat I pooped in a corner once by accident. I argued with an evaluation of a five page sample on a group and now my book is condemned to rest forever on a Wall of Shame. Learn from those who went before - we are being realistic, not mean.
The posting rules of every discussion group are clearly stated in the preamble to the threads that follow. It takes less than a minute to read one. If not inclined to follow the rules of a particular group, don't join!It is human nature to be upset or frustrated when we have a statement or product we wish to be formally recognized is instead ignored.
Rather than begging others to read and review their book, authors should focus all of their energy and efforts toward creating a work that others will beg to read and perhaps rate and review. A well-designed website, promotional items, interviews, presentations, book signings, and word-of-mouth will do the rest.
Constantly posting desperate pleas for readers and reviewers that are, quite often, rife with misspelled words, bad grammar, incorrect punctuation, and total disregard for syntax will deliver the exact opposite results.
I read every rules post, ensure my grammar is up to par at all times, and take steps not to upset other authors by incessantly re-posting the same book promo over and over. Also, I have never whined about not having success (because I was humbled the moment someone read my work and took the time to give me a review) but I know I'm the kind of person to never succumb to that kind of behaviour anyway, I was simply standing up for others less capable. I won't apologise or feel bad about that. I have obviously walked into a place where there is a clearly marked line separating the classes, so I'll be keeping my posts among "my own kind" :-)
Melissa wrote: "...My beagle showed her bad-Goodreads skills off today... here, there, everywhere. Heheh "ROFL-CGU! Priceless! :-D
L.E. wrote: "I do understand why authors want to post outside the designated areas because they want to post where the readers are, not where other authors are. But I agree it's highly irritating. ..."The thing is that it's all so unnecessary. If you post in the author area where you belong, EVERYONE who gets a daily wrap-up for the group will see it, even if they don't specifically subscribe to the "author" area.
Got a candidate for the Poopy Puppy award.F L Ciano (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...) pooped on the carpet in this morning's wrap-up. Not as many messes as I've seen in the past, but he has no excuse. He's been a member since April of this year which is enough time to learn the ropes.
@Linda, I agree with nearly everything you've posted thus far. You've made some wonderful points. As an avid reader who aspires to become an author (although I've told few of this), I find, when used properly, goodreads is an excellent resource for readers and aspiring authors both.
To my utter annoyance, it's steadily becoming harder & harder to find a well written book simply because everyone & their dog can self-publish. That's bad enough but now, these same, in my experience, less than talented writers are shamelessly, self-promoting every place they can think to.
What these hopefuls need to spend their time on is less self-promotion & much more work. Most haven't the slightest idea of how to form a coherent sentence. They mutilate the written word with their lack of proper grammar & it's quite obvious, most have no grasp of what punctuation is or how it's to be used. I've wasted too much of my time reading utter drivel. It saddens me what passes as literature these days.
When we come right down to it, the problem, in this instance, as you've pointed out, is simply a lack of common sense, manners & professionalism.
Someone else did that too. A month ago I saw a person talking up a book and then I realized they wrote it. I should have said something but I thought I was misreading and no one's that dense..so much for that thinking!
Linda wrote: "The worst of it, Geek, is that so many of the pros, by which I mean the sincere, hard-working, dedicated SPAs who do respect the written word and their potential audience, are too willing to sit ba..."Wow! My hat's off to you, Linda. I wish I had the time to join your fight, but as a full-time editor for a publisher (AKW Books), I'm sick to death of staring at a computer screen by quitting time. As is, I only get Sunday afternoons off to do my own writing.
The literary world needs more people like you to fight this fight -- and an effective way to disembowel the cheaters permanently.
I don't know how the sock puppets get onto Amazon. You have to have purchased SOMETHING from them to post a review and I would think that would be difficult without a credit card in that fake name.
I know that Amazon is usually fussy about reviews. They even removed one of my 3-star reviews because the book in question was published by the outfit I work for (I can get away with having my own opinion without getting fired). I don't understand why they wouldn't do the same thing for these fakes.
Goodreads is harder to police. I'm a co-moderator for another group and I understand why the moderator pushed you off onto management (I get the feeling that there aren't that many people in management). Perhaps s/he just didn't want the hassle. And I can understand that, since I'm unaware of any tools available to me that would automatically keep the sock puppets out. It would be a manual job which would take a lot of time -- a lot to ask from a moderator who's a volunteer (no pay).
Also, I don't know who (if anyone) monitors reviews. It's not a part of a group monitor's area. Just the discussions and such within the group.
Certainly we have no authority over account creation.
Keep up the good fight, Linda. Our industry doesn't need this kind of crap floating around. It's hard enough to sell books with legitimate reviews. This sort of thing cheapens ALL reviews when the public finds out about the practice.We at AKW Books, like everyone else, are more than happy to give away free copies of books in return for reviews, but we want HONEST reviews, not this sort of crap. I a reviewer gives one of our books a crappy review, we don't hold that against him/her and we'll send another book for review if they want one (unless all reviews are lousy, then we begin to think about "enemy action" -- grin -- but that hasn't happened yet).
Linda wrote: "Here's another. Apparently this is her standard M.O.https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
She has two distinct GR author accounts, one of which has been here since 2012, the newer since ..."
Good grief.
Some puppies just poop; this one has dysentery!
Al wrote: "Keep up the good fight, Linda. Our industry doesn't need this kind of crap floating around. It's hard enough to sell books with legitimate reviews. This sort of thing cheapens ALL reviews when the ..."Just caught up with this thread. Linda does a great job and does get some help, but there's a reason she's been called a Superhero.
I have one question for every SPA out there: Why aren't the you helping her?
Why would any legitimate SPA sit back and ignore this situation. Many of you are fully aware of the unethical behavior and in many cases know all the details; who's at fault and which authors are involved.
Instead you say nothing and avoid any possible backlash. You stick your head in the sand, while the unethical turn the entire SP industry into a bad joke. Everyday more and more readers are turning back to traditional publishing and I have to admit I can't blame them.
Dominae you really have put this very well and I think your metaphors of the wild frontier and cartel really do describe very well what is happening. The traditional publishers aren't beyond bending the rules like the SPA's. And cheating when a prize is involved, well it happens everywhere and in every industry. Point of example - the banking fiasco and look at the chaos that has caused!
Dominae wrote: "Self-publishing does not deserve negativity and bad press just because it is. There can be gems among the slush. Traditional publishing by itself does not deserve prestige and reputation just beca..."A new website is up that replaces The Source group to locate those SP gems lost in the pile of unreadable unethical junk. See my blog for information. We agree with you.
http://christinehaytonwrites.wordpres...
Christine wrote: "Al wrote: "Keep up the good fight, Linda. Our industry doesn't need this kind of crap floating around. It's hard enough to sell books with legitimate reviews. This sort of thing cheapens ALL review..."I'm not entirely sure what's meant by why aren't we doing more. Lol. I'm an SPA and I'd love to do more... after I've cleaned up the LITERAL poo from a slightly incontinent beagle and a potty training daughter. :-)
And after I finish hunting down potential leads for my own books, posting (legitimately) to social media to build relationships, and cooking dinner, folding laundry, and dusting.
I don't know how anyone can hope to police the literate world, but it can't be me. Someone else will have to carry that burden. I do, however, do honest reviews for Indies and SPAs so the gems can be found in the wasteland.
Dominae wrote: "...Not even on a platform hosted by Warner Books because good ratings can be manipulated. This isn't a new phenomenon or confined to independent publishing. When there is a prize to be won, expect dirty dealings, politics and manipulation when people disregard fair play and merits. Over here the prize is publicity which in turn generate sales and prominence...."That's typical human herd behavior. Look at anything, from politics to the playground . . .
When something upsets me in a forum, before I post to it, I usually sleep on it. When I wake up and I have forgotten about it, if it comes up again I ignore it. But when I wake up and it is still the first thing on my mind I write my post. This is one of those threads.This thread goes beyond being a newbie punching bag. I am appalled at the snooty, look-down-our-nose, I've-been-a-member-longer-than-you, tone I read in many of the posts here. It it were possible, I think many of you would set up a virtual gallows for new members or at least have a set of stocks handy. Since it isn't, many of you have chosen to throw your virtual tomatoes at new members and those you call sock puppets through the vitriol you have displayed in this thread.
I am sure that there are those authors, publishers, and author agents who join Goodreads only to promote their books. However, I believe that most new members joined this site in an earnest search for help in this difficult world of modern publishing. I know that's why I joined.
Do any of you with your high and mighty attitudes remember when you first joined this site? If you do, you may agree that the interface here is not the easiest to follow. Amid the explore this, join that, fill up your bookshelves, rate this, and join that, it is downright difficult. And there is absolutely no help available that answers many of a new member's questions except for the ability to ask one. How many of those questions have you answered?
Like many groups, this one has a welcome thread, which IMO is a waste of everyone's time. How many of you use it to meet and greet new members? Who here has offered a helping hand to a new author that has introduced him/herself through the welcome thread? Do you really care if I have a dog, three tortoises, a bird and three snakes? That I love music, mostly classical and play the piano when I get some spare time? That I like movies as well as books? That I have been a copywriter since 1975 and have 15 years of experience in online writing and editing-- Oh oops. That last bit was promotional, wasn't it? But it is also a part of who I am.
Another part of who I was when I first joined was that I had, after being a closet poet nearly all my life, at the age of 63 years old taken the plunge and published my first book. I was enormously proud of that fact and also that I had more poetry in the wings to publish -- another oops. Self promotion again. Drat!
I didn't promote my book here to sell it. In this world of self-publishing I made a mistake. I published before I got any reviews. I published before I knew the first thing about marketing a book in this changed self-publishing atmosphere, especially a digital one.
I have been the route of poetry contests and magazine submissions to no avail. I have searched the Internet for those who are willing to review poetry and come up nearly empty. So I offered my book for review in every thread here I thought might accept it. Not to sell my work but to get some honest reviews that I might use to learn if my work is the type of poetry that has a chance to succeed in a saturated market.
Soon after that, I had my nose put back into joint when I suggested that reviews weren't for readers only, that authors could also use them as tools to improve their writing and fix the mistakes that would keep their future work from selling. I still believe that regardless of what anyone here thinks about the subject. Don't read your reviews if you don't want to. I like to know what the few people who will read my books think about them. Honestly. Good and bad.
So, all in all it seems this is not a site for authors like me. This is only for you who are expert in this world of publishing and as one post here says, " reserve the term "authors" for someone who is published by a legitimate press OR is self-published and actually selling books hand over fist"
So it would seem I am just a writer and not worthy of your company. I never have been one to stay where I wasn't welcomed. I hope you all enjoy the camaraderie of you hand-over-fist club.
Hi Linda,my name's Saul and I'm really new to Goodreads. Wow, that's quite an impassioned entry and I can see that you've slept on it and reflected on every word before you pressed 'send' - I appreciate that very much.
I have to say that I agree with much of what you say and that I've been excited to join goodreads for the very reason that it is not all about self-promotion (compare twitter for example). I guess I've been lucky that all the 'groups' or 'streams' I've joined seem to have been very welcoming and very helpful. Perhaps this particular stream is an exception?
In other words, it may be worth persevering with Goodreads for a while and finding a group that suits better?
Have a good week end!
Saul
Linda wrote: "The worst of it, Geek, is that so many of the pros, by which I mean the sincere, hard-working, dedicated SPAs who do respect the written word and their potential audience, are too willing to sit ba..."I was a moderator at SitePoint Forums for several years. What we did with spammers, trolls, and those who set up multiple accounts was to block their IP Addresses. It was a pretty tricky thing, though with all the proxy issues these days. However, some of our staff was smart enough to do it. They also had some add-in browser tools that helped. I can contact some friends from there if you think it's something that will help here. (The name of those tools escapeds me right now.)
You can pass this on to the moderator of this group if you think it will help.
I moderated a dog forum for a decade (had to take a break . . . new owners, too many drama llamas) and one of the ways I brought a few of the more determined spammers/trolls to their knees was dig up their identities and post it, publicly, along with a few personal details I'd found :D
-First of all, rush to the "Introduce yourself" section of your favorite discussion group and try to sell your book there. It'll make people think of an unruly puppy who charges in through the front door and poops on the carpet, before charging into the rest of the house. Whatever you do, don't just tell folks about yourself and your interests. You're an "author" and everyone should know about that right up front so they can be impressed by you.
-Barge all over the place, leaving more puppy droppings. You're here to sell and you don't have time to learn the ropes nor interact with the folks as a "real person". By all means, don't restrict yourself to the author marketing section that most groups maintain for authors. Post duplicates of your "ad" in every discussion thread within the group you can find that remotely fits the theme of your book (okay, I did that once, so I'm guilty too). That way, it will be splattered all over the daily wrap-up that most people get, since if you belong to a group, you get copies of every post within that group from all the threads. You certainly don't want them to miss your wonderful new book.
-Time is money, so fire your broadsides and move on to the next group.
-When you've messed on the carpets in every group, charge off to the next social site and repeat the performance. Then sit down and wait for the grateful public to flock to your offering. And wait. And wait.