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The Dark Game
Group Reads: Guest Author Invite
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June 2019 Group Read with Guest Author, Jonathan Janz
The below isn't really a spoiler, but you might skip it if you haven't read the first half or so of the book. So...here's a tiny bit of the original opening (the later original opening) with Corrina Bowen referred to as Cora:
Cora willed her legs to pump faster, prayed the uneven path wouldn’t trip her up. Thorns snagged her white dress, whipped her sweating face, the bony branches at the right level for her to lose an eye. People always told her being little was an advantage. She made a smaller target, could fit into spaces others couldn’t. Cora knew that was bullshit. All it did was make her more vulnerable.
She heard Richard behind her, maybe thirty yards back, laughing.
Cora burst from the forest, pounded past the gazebo, and had a brief flash of drinking wine there last month. That was before the first death, before they realized what they’d gotten themselves into. Before they tore each other apart, the prize like some fresh kill on the savannah, all of them clawing and scratching to get at it like earth’s last morsel of food.
Things had been good for a couple weeks, and though everyone had been edgy, no one had gotten hurt. Then Jack departed, her one friend. The man she liked so much she toyed with the notion of going with him.
But she hadn’t. She’d stayed.
Then Richard unleashed the monster.
Jesus, even now, with the gazebo and the lake safely in her rearview, the image of the fanged, long-tailed creature sent a shivery thrill down her spine. She’d scoffed at the notion when Richard mentioned it to the group, but deep down she’d known Richard was her main competition, known he was the one she’d have to outwrite if she was going to be Wells’s champion.
Cora lunged into the forest, and though it was gloomy here, she couldn’t help feeling safer.
“Cocoa,” Richard called.
I’ve never read anything from Janz yet, but I’ve heard great things only. Really looking forward to reading this! Sounds like a lot of fun!Thank you for joining us this month. :)
Ami wrote: "I’ve never read anything from Janz yet, but I’ve heard great things only. Really looking forward to reading this! Sounds like a lot of fun!Thank you for joining us this month. :)"
Thanks, Ami!
Almost halfway through, and now wondering whether Wells gets his youthful look and energy by somehow 'feeding' on the authors.I like how the writers are so different (as already mentioned above re. their voices), which helps me to distinguish them (which I still have problems with, poor memory). I love the many different stories told in this book, and now can understand how the original version was easily so much longer. I guess the full-length doorstopper may have discouraged me from giving it a try, but after this 'appetizer' I wouldn't hesitate a second to read it.
Question: Is 'Martin's Oath' related to some existing work?
Elke wrote: "Almost halfway through, and now wondering whether Wells gets his youthful look and energy by somehow 'feeding' on the authors.I like how the writers are so different (as already mentioned above r..."
It isn't, but for that book I wanted something that sounded literary, like something that would have been in the curricula of my Purdue courses. Martin's Oath sounded a lot like something that would have won literary prizes back in the fifties or sixties. :-)
Names are always crucial. They have great power. I'll maybe talk more about names this month, but one of them--Marek--came from my wife's cousin (my father-in-law came to America from Belarus, and his nephew is named Marek). I always dug that name, and the guy who owns it in real life is quite a character.
Another name, Rick Forrester, came from my favorite novel DANDELION WINE by Ray Bradbury. Bill Forrester, I believe, is the name of the thirty-something reporter in that book. Rick definitely contains some of Bill's flavor, so I figured the name was fitting.The name Rick came from a good friend of mine, a farmer/music minister whose no-nonsense demeanor always made hanging out with him fun. He's about twelve years older than me, and I used to teach several of his kids (he has ten children). So some of this character came from him.
Okay, we all want to look good, which is why we're rarely vulnerable with each other. I'm about to look bad here, and I'm okay with that, and I hope you'll take this the way I mean it. So when I wrote the opening you all have now, the one with Lucy in the limo and eventually with Bryan and Tommy in the clearing, my agent really called me to the carpet for a lack of situational realism.
One trope I've always detested is the helpless woman. The notion that the woman needs to stand on the sidelines quailing while the men do the saving makes my blood boil. So I had Lucy basically being a verbal buttkicker in this scene, and even had her slap Bryan a couple times to break up his scuffle with Tommy.
My agent pointed out how Lucy would feel a) in a limo with a man she doesn't know, and b) in a forest with *two* men she doesn't know. And as elementary as it sounds, I hadn't considered how threatening that situation might be for a woman by herself.
My agent started talking about how when she gets on the subway, she's aware of where every man is sitting, where the exits are, etc. I sat there on the phone flabbergasted as she then explained how unsafe Lucy would probably feel in the same situation.
Now, I'm not saying every woman feels the same way, but I talked to my wife later, and she looked at me like I was a fool. "Well, duh," she basically said. "I *always* feel unsafe when I'm around a man I don't know and it's an isolated setting."
So I guess what I'm saying here is that I didn't know as much as I thought I did. I was thinking how *I* would feel if I were Lucy, but I've never really felt unsafe the way she probably would. I've never worried about being assaulted or abducted or anything that could happen to Lucy in that scenario, which meant I was missing some pretty key elements from that scene.
My desire to not make a female character weak was leading me to ignore important truths, truths about men that maybe I needed to think more about.
I hope none of this offends anyone, but I think it's interesting. And I feel like the Lucy scene rings truer now because of my agent and wife sharing their perspectives.
Mod
So when I ..."
And I thought you did that deliberately (view spoiler)
Kimberly wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Okay, we all want to look good, which is why we're rarely vulnerable with each other. I'm about to look bad here, and I'm okay with that, and I hope you'll take this the way I mean..."Yeah, that’s a good point. That part was deliberate. But I was thinking more along the lines of Wells making Lucy uncomfortable at the two men’s competitive, primitive attitudes than I was about her feeling physically threatened by Bryan or Tommy.
Jonathan, thank you so much for talking about your experience writing that! I definitely would second what your agent and wife both said. Hell, I was in a scenario just earlier this week at work where I had to spend half an hour alone in an empty elementary school with a strange man, and even though he was as nice as could be, I was on edge the whole time. That's a reality for most of us! So, hearing that you were able to learn and make it more true-to-life is really cool to me. Plus, you already know I'm very fond of how kickass and authentic you write your women! :)
This is an interesting discussion that has been a big focus in my home as my daughter has grown and now completed her first year of college. We always tried to raise our kids to treat people with compassion and respect and see past physical differences, and so naturally they would often expect the same in return. Particularly my daughter, who tends to think the best of everyone, which we love about her, but we had lots of discussions before she left for school about keeping safety in mind, especially because she's fairly petite.I guess I didn't think much of it at the time because we really didn't know Lucy yet, and I have met women who either truly are not wary of those types of situations, or more often who channel their fear into aggressive behavior to cope with it, and I assumed Lucy was like that. Just because she feels fear doesn't necessarily mean she'll show it, IMO.
I’m about 30% right now and seriously loving it so far! A very fun and scary story. :D I can’t wait to find out what exactly is happening. Love the creepy build up and the eerie atmosphere.
Jonathan wrote: "Okay, we all want to look good, which is why we're rarely vulnerable with each other. I'm about to look bad here, and I'm okay with that, and I hope you'll take this the way I mean it. So when I ..."
This was fantastic to read Jonathan. I think your agent and wife are right about this.
Even though I feel like I can kick ass or at least try if I needed to, if I was in an isolated place with a "questionable" guy that I didn't know, I would not feel safe.
I think that's why some women can have strong gut insticts on people when we meet someone new.
Maybe it's the spidey sense that's always being on.
Examples: Being on the subway at night with a couple of guys in the rail with you, or being stuck in an elevator at work and it's after hours and a guy gets in the elevator.
As a woman living in the city, I'm always aware of my surroundings.
destiny ♡⚔♡ wrote: "Jonathan, thank you so much for talking about your experience writing that! I definitely would second what your agent and wife both said. Hell, I was in a scenario just earlier this week at work wh..."Thank you so much, Destiny, and I appreciate your sharing that experience. It definitely dovetails with what I've heard, and it's further evidence of why I believe--though some don't like this--I believe we need to take a long, hard look at how boys are raised and how manhood is perceived and cultivated in the human race.
It breaks my heart that women feel unsafe in these situations, and I feel stupid for not realizing it--I mean REALLY realizing it--before the past few years.
Jonathan wrote: "I believe we need to take a long, hard look at how boys are raised and how manhood is perceived and cultivated in the human race. It breaks my heart that women feel unsafe in these situations ..."
Amen, brother!
Ha! Hadn't a lot of reading time the last two-ish weeks, but finally made it! Really liked this one, especially the pacing was spot-on. Also, I have to ask: (view spoiler)
Robert wrote: "This is an interesting discussion that has been a big focus in my home as my daughter has grown and now completed her first year of college. We always tried to raise our kids to treat people with c..."That's really well said, Robert, re: Lucy. And I appreciate your sharing your family's experiences with this too. It's a badly broken world, and there's such a fine line between being overprotective and not preparing your kids. I usually err on the side of overprotective, but I know that can be a negative too.
Ami wrote: "I’m about 30% right now and seriously loving it so far! A very fun and scary story. :D I can’t wait to find out what exactly is happening. Love the creepy build up and the eerie atmosphere."This is so awesome to hear. Thank you so much, Ami! I hope you dig the rest. :-)
Kimberly wrote: "In Lucy's case, [spoilers removed]"I really like that, Kimberly, and I suspect I might have had that in mind for Lucy because she certainly does try to project more confidence than she feels later on in the book (when in contact with the other writers).
Jannik wrote: "Ha! Hadn't a lot of reading time the last two-ish weeks, but finally made it! Really liked this one, especially the pacing was spot-on. Also, I have to ask: [spoilers removed]"Thank you, Jannik! I'm so happy you enjoyed it.
From where in Germany are you from?
Regarding that legend, if I'm remembering right, I had to research a good while to find that one. I have quite a few reference books on mythology and legends, and I go to my old MAN, MYTH, & MAGIC encyclopedias quite a bit, so it might have been in there. I forget where exactly that came from, but because of the suicide angle, it connected with that particularly backstory really well.
Thanks again! :-)
Okay, so there are quite a few touchy subjects in THE DARK GAME. I think a writer can either a) ignore those subjects, b) deal with them in the best way she/he can, or c) jar the reader out of the story by getting too preachy about them. Just a few of the subjects addressed in the novel are...Fat shaming
Homophobia
Sexism
Racism
"Slut shaming"
Sexual assault
Domestic abuse
Pedophilia
Child abuse
And those are just off the top of my head. The deeper you all get into the book, the more you'll encounter these things.
A question I have is how well you think horror is dealing with the above issues (or any others) right now, and what approach to you prefer? Should writers leave them out, deal with them, and if the latter, how much should authors examine them?
Do you feel like they're mishandled often? Do you feel like they're treated with the proper sensitivity?
Jonathan wrote: "A question I have is how well you think horror is dealing with the above issues (or any others) right now, and what approach to you prefer? Should writers leave them out, deal with them, and if the latter, how much should authors examine them? "Great questions Jonathan! I don't think authors should leave out "taboo" subjects if it's crucial to the plot.
I think authors who are trying to shock the readers is a whole other topic though. I think it's got to be crucial to the plot and development of the characters.
I don't shy away from books with controversial topics and feel like the horror genre would have more of an "in" when bringing them up in a book.
All of these topics are scary or horrifying by themselves but when horror is also attached to it, it goes to a whole new level and I love that.
I hope this all made sense. It's 7am here and I haven't had coffee yet. hahaha!
Phew. That was one hell of a novel, sir! I just finished it a few mins ago and really loved it. I had a hard time putting that book down. I loved how you had such a variety of characters. It was a lot of fun getting to see what kind of baggage everyone was dealing with. The reveal at the end about the other people who lived with Wells was pretty awesome. Very twisty. As for authors writing about touchy subjects... I think sometimes it is hard for someone to find the right balance. Sometimes when a taboo subject is brought up, it either becomes too sensationalized or too preachy. It's good to have awareness about things, but when that subject takes over the whole book, it just feels like the author is beating a subject in to the ground and cares more about their particular agenda instead of plot with awareness. Even if it is brought up for a really good cause, if you push the subject too far, and come on too strong, it will be a huge turn off to everyone.
The Dark Game, for example. You touched on subjects that were sensitive, but you didn't become preachy about it. You didn't push your own personal feelings on the subject. You brought awareness to the subject and then you continued on with your over all plot. The things you brought up didn't feel shoehorned in there just because you felt you needed to get on a soap box about important subjects, you know? The way you brought them up, it felt like it really was just a part of the story. It felt organic, not forced. You gave us something to think on without beating us over the head with it.
Sometimes, when you are reading general fiction, those sensitive subjects end up swallowing the the whole book and the original story feels lost. But, to me, horror has an easier time addressing those things because it feels like the taboo subject is just one piece of the puzzle of fear. It doesn't become the whole puzzle. It's just a piece. I think a piece at a time (basically baby steps) is easier for people to understand and deal with (and accept) then having the sensitive subject in your face the whole book.
Think of it like this. You get a brand new, bright pink toy for your cat. You show it to your cat, waving it around it the cat's face, making a huge deal about this nice new sweet toy. The cat just gives you an annoyed look and turns it's head and looks the other way. But, if you get the toy, say "here it is" and just lay it on the ground and don't make a huge hoopla event, the cat comes over, checks it out. Then before you know it the cat is playing with that toy.
I hope all this makes sense. I'm fighting a head cold that is kicking my butt today and downing cough syrup left and right and had very little sleep. XD
Ginger wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "A question I have is how well you think horror is dealing with the above issues (or any others) right now, and what approach to you prefer? Should writers leave them out, deal with..."I totally agree with horror having an "in," Ginger. I think, by its very nature, horror is equipped to explore areas that other genres might not be able to as easily or appropriately (not that it's ever easy, of course, but you get my point).
Ami wrote: "Phew. That was one hell of a novel, sir! I just finished it a few mins ago and really loved it. I had a hard time putting that book down. I loved how you had such a variety of characters. It was a ..."Hah! That's a fantastic analogy and extremely well said. I think it really is about the handling, and that gets into the skill of the writer, and the writer's intent.
And thank you SO much for your kind words about THE DARK GAME. I'm so happy that it worked for you! :-)
Jonathan wrote: "Okay, so there are quite a few touchy subjects in THE DARK GAME. I think a writer can either a) ignore those subjects, b) deal with them in the best way she/he can, or c) jar the reader out of the story by getting too preachy about them..."First off let me say I had to set the book aside for a bit to finish a job, because timesharing the 2 wasn't working - I didn't feel like I could focus as much as I wanted to. I should be back on track starting tomorrow, and we're going on vacation (yay! :-) which I hope will afford enough reading time to finish it.
Anyway, great question! I have no problem with books tackling issues like that. They don't have to, but IMO it's just realistic - for better or for worse they are out there, and just about everyone is going to encounter them at some point.
My biggest pet peeve is your 3rd option - they have to be handled as part of the story, not eclipse the story. I've definitely read books where the "message" was so bludgeoned into me by the time I was done that it lost all its impact. You have to have a reason to care about the characters it is happening to (and/or care enough to hate the characters perpetrating it), or it's just a philosophical exercise.
Robert wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Okay, so there are quite a few touchy subjects in THE DARK GAME. I think a writer can either a) ignore those subjects, b) deal with them in the best way she/he can, or c) jar the r..."That makes total sense, Robert. Great points, my friend!
The novels that the characters write aren't ALL mentioned in THE DARK GAME, but they're all things that I've written, will write, or have toyed with writing. One of my favorite passages is from Elaine's novel, THE STARS HAVE LEFT THE SKIES. That's from a passage of poetry, and it's a novel I'll likely write after my current work-in-progress is done. I've always loved "winter horror" but haven't yet worked in that area. I'm planning to this winter, though, and Elaine's excerpt might make it, in one form or another, into my my novel.
The novel not only connects to my own body of work (like Will writing THE SIREN AND THE SPECTER), but there are allusions to other literary works as well. For example...What happens with Tommy Marston relates to Tennessee Williams's play SUDDENLY LAST SUMMER.
The whole book owes a debt to LORD OF THE FLIES.
The "feel" of Will's childhood scenes relates to SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES.
The notion of a twisted mentor comes partially from Peter Straub's SHADOWLAND.
The vibe of Anna's story (the latter parts) was influenced by Japanese cinema and even the American remake THE GRUDGE.
If you've not gotten to the second part of the novel yet, you probably shouldn't read on...One part of the fun of a novel like this is trying to figure out who's going to get picked off first, who's going to win, etc. For those of you who've read it or are reading it, did the order of the deaths go according to what you anticipated? Were there any that surprised you, saddened you, or made you gleeful?
Spoilers here, obviously. :-)
Jonathan wrote: "One part of the fun of a novel like this is trying to figure out who's going to get picked off first..."I just finished Jonathan and really enjoyed this!! Thank you for participating in our group read. I loved all of your comments in regards to the book and to writing horror.
In regards to your questions,
(view spoiler)
I enjoyed the ending of the book. (view spoiler)
Well done!
Finished and reviewed: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...Just caught up on all the postings, and wow Jonathan thanks for all the information about/around writing the book. It's been a pleasure to join in this group read!
I loved the way the story unfolded and the contrast between the different characters worked brilliantly. I found The Dark Game a refreshing twist on a familiar basic premise, with plenty of suspense to keep my nails bitten. The more books of yours I read, Jonathan, the more you entertain me. Thank you!
Ginger wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "One part of the fun of a novel like this is trying to figure out who's going to get picked off first..."I just finished Jonathan and really enjoyed this!! Thank you for participa..."
Good thoughts. I especially appreciated your thoughts on Bryan. That's how I saw him too. As Wilson says at one point, there was a tipping point where he could accept truth or lies (he parents' lies), and unfortunately, he bought into their terrible prejudice. He's not a likable character, but I think there's humanity in there.
Elke wrote: "Finished and reviewed: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...Just caught up on all the postings, and wow Jonathan thanks for all the information about/around writing the book. It's been..."
What an awesome review! Thank you so much! I especially liked how you considered the book a novel and a collection of short stories. I saw it that way too. :-)
Catherine wrote: "I loved the way the story unfolded and the contrast between the different characters worked brilliantly. I found The Dark Game a refreshing twist on a familiar basic premise, with plenty of suspens..."Wow! Thank you so much, Catherine! I can't tell you how much I appreciate that and appreciate your reading my work! :-)
One thing I love about horror is how incredibly diverse its sub-genres are. Brian Keene and I talked about this briefly on his show recently, and we both agreed that it was a blast exploring different regions of horror. Also, whether you like this book or hate it, I think most of you would agree that the kinds of horror in THE DARK GAME are varied. What I'm wondering, and what I'd love to hear about from you all, is what kinds of horror do you dig? Lovecraftian? Quiet? Splatterpunk? Old school? New school? Zombies, werewolves, or vampires? Supernatural or non?
Mod
For myself, supernatural above all else (with a special fondness for Lovecratian).
Kimberly wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "One thing I love about horror is how incredibly diverse its sub-genres are. Brian Keene and I talked about this briefly on his show recently, and we both agreed that it was a blast..."Ahhh...I never knew that about you. I know you dig supernatural, but I didn't know about the Lovecraftian fondness. Very cool.
Mod
They were practically the first books I read--the collections my mom had. Before we were able to get to a library, that's what we had (my sister and I were both early readers). Lovecraft and Poe it was!
Jonathan wrote: "What I'm wondering, and what I'd love to hear about from you all, is what kinds of horror do you dig? Lovecraftian? Quiet? Splatterpunk? Old school? New school? Zombies, werewolves, or vampires? Supernatural or non?"My tastes have changed as I've aged and read more. I used to love the more extreme stuff, but I've drifted away from it quite a bit. Though I do still love a lot of Richard Laymon's work, and I have to say, I felt a LOT of his style in this book - I hope that was intended. :-)
Like Kimberly, I definitely prefer supernatural, with a particular fondness towards ghost stories (quiet or not doesn't matter as much). I do love werewolf stories (like Wolf Land :-) - I read Mongrels very recently, and thought it was *brilliant*, though it's obviously somewhat polarizing.
Having said that, a few of Jack Ketchum's very much real world horror books have had a more lasting impression on me than just about anything else I have read. He was a true master of the craft - it makes me sad to know there won't be any more new Ketchum books, and that I'll never get to talk to him again, because the few times I met him very briefly, he struck me as very warm and genuine.
I'll try just about anything with a good story, I guess, but I think that sums up my leanings. Sorry, long-winded answer... :-)
I wanted to give this its own post rather than burying it at the end of the wandering novella above that probably no one finished reading...I finished this on vacation, and REALLY enjoyed it. While it was a familiar premise, many of the details of execution (oof, sorry, pun sort of intended) were original and unique, and I like the fact that it focused on writers, and wove in the story lines of the books they were creating. Like I said previously, this one gave me the strongest Laymon vibe of all your works. I'm not sure it unseated Children of the Dark as my favorite of yours - that one I connected with on so many levels - but this is high on the list!
As always, thanks for hanging out with us and providing so much great insight!
Jonathan wrote: "What I'm wondering, and what I'd love to hear about from you all, is what kinds of horror do you dig? Lovecraftian? Quiet? Splatterpunk? Old school? New school? Zombies, werewolves, or vampires? Supernatural or non?"When I was young I started with King, Koontz and Straub, as those were almost the only horror books available in book stores - yep, no internet back then, and only translations of well-known authors in stores. Only when I was able to order books online and the site telebuch (which was later sold to amazon) made intl books available with reasonable shipping costs, I discovered a whole new world of books. That started a phase where I collected everything vampire, but that soon became boring, so I switched (back) to other horror, especially after discovering Ketchum, which introduced me to a totally different kind of horror.
Currently, I love coming-of-age horror and creature features most, but also stories where the supernatural invades reality and normality slowly turns into horror (like I read in King's work).
Curiously, I never read any Lovecraft, as I always had the feeling that it's not my cup of tea. To make the list complete, I usually shy away from horror featuring music(ians) or religion.
Mod
You definitely did not kill many of the characters off in an order I would have suspected. Some more (seemingly) major characters kicked the bucket earlier than I thought they would.
Alan wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "One part of the fun of a novel like this is trying to figure out who's going to get picked off first, who's going to win, etc. For those of you who've read it or are reading it, di..."That's a good point. Without meaning to, I've sort of made that a trademark. Especially in a book called WOLF LAND.
Elke wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "What I'm wondering, and what I'd love to hear about from you all, is what kinds of horror do you dig? Lovecraftian? Quiet? Splatterpunk? Old school? New school? Zombies, werewolves..."Wow, you've really cycled through some interesting phases. Lovecraft isn't for everybody. I don't like who he was, but I'm influenced by his fiction, and I suspect a great many authors are, either directly or indirectly. I also loved that you mentioned Ketchum. King is my guy, but Ketchum matters a great deal to me too.
Just out of curiosity, and I swear I'm not giving you the hard sell here, because that's the opposite of my style, but have you read CHILDREN OF THE DARK? Because that's a coming-of-age creature feature. :-)
Robert wrote: "I wanted to give this its own post rather than burying it at the end of the wandering novella above that probably no one finished reading...I finished this on vacation, and REALLY enjoyed it. Whi..."
I am SO happy you enjoyed it, Robert! You're a great guy, and you know your stuff, so the fact that you dug THE DARK GAME means a lot to me. Thank you! :-)
Horror Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Mongrels (other topics)The Siren and the Specter (other topics)
The Sorrows (other topics)
So there were two other original openings of this novel. An early EARLY version where the book started pretty far in the future (as in ten or fifteen years after the contest ended). That beginning featured a character who didn't actually survive the version you're reading. That opening also featured the original inspiration for the title (which is a game my kids and I played when they were really little).
The later early version of the opening featured Corrina Bowen and her final adversary in the original contest. That opening was, in my opinion, a pretty visceral humdinger, but it gave a lot away about the contest, and those characters don't end up being that important later on in the book. Ultimately, my agent and I decided it should be cut, so now the book begins in the present with Lucy in the limo.