Timon Of Athens, Act 3, June 5

[Candy]

Act 3 June 5, discussion can begin here....

[JamesD]

Right. I thought we'd be starting Act 3 on June 4. don't want to discuss act 2 for 2 weeks.
So Act 3 - Servants and 'Friends', might be an apt title. And this is where the cynicism of Middleton, the suggested co-author of this play, really comes on. The flattering friends and recipients of Timon's indiscriminate largesse are appalled and even outraged by tomon's plea for financial aid. One is even angry with Timon for apparently giving freely and then asking for it back.
We've not spoken of Middleton's assumed participation in the writing of this play but now is as good a time as any for that.
Some critics and reviewers over the last 400 years have called Middleton second only to Shakespeare as a dramatist so we can take it that he was no slouch at play writing. And his plays are often cynical of human nature; much more so than Shakespeare's (in my opinion).
There is an added factor relating to the planned first production of this play. It was meant to be performed at a lawyer's educational institute and Middleton, due to years of litigation over a disputed will was not fond of lawyers. So there is plenty in the themes of this play for Middleton to grind his axe with.
There will be a court scene to be sure later on.
The three strangers discussing the goings speak perhaps for the good viewers of the play (or readers if you will). I think we are meant to share their sentiments about the sad and pathetic goings on.
But are we missing something here? It's Timon. As Tom mentioned earlier in our discussion, it's hard to understand how Timon can be so dim, shallow even. I think this is where Shakespeare comes in because he often has characters who do really foolish things, things that 'motivate' the action and drama of a play, but still leave us bemused about the motivations of the character himself. Why did he do that? Is this how shakespeare manifests cynicism about human nature?
I'm finding that presuming that Middleton is involved in the writing of the play makes it more intriguing to read.
I'll be going back to Act 1 and 2 discussions with a few thoughts that I've not yet shared, and then read on further in Act 3. Hey!

[Gabriel]

Thanks for moving us on, James. Yes, act III is a big development. The first thing is the ingenuity of the false friends in finding 'honourable' reeasons for refusing to help Timon -marvellous depictions of clever hypocrisy. Then Alcibiades' argument with the senate. Although the senators are not named, they are clearly the same class and type as Timon's false friends but here we see a different and more complex issue. It seems that one of Alcibiades' soldiers has killed someone in a quarrel after being insulted, and the senators are condemning him to death. We see here more of the ethos that rules the society. The law is perhaps just, but Alcibiades' plea for mercy is more compelling, linked as it is with his own and his soldier's role in keeping the senate safe from enemies. When he persists, the senate banishes him, and he then vows to turn against Athens. This bit is parallel to events in Coriolanus, but Alcibiades is a much more sympathetic character than Coriolanus. But still, his argument is troubling - there's no perfect answer.
I didn't know about the possible Middleton co-authorship. My edition (Penguin) mentions it but says it's just a guess. I don't find it makes the play more intriguing, but then I don't have much concept of Middleton. With all plays there's a question about how the action holds together, whether in single or multiple authorship. So far, this holds together very well, including the sudden intriduction of the Alcibades issue, because we see then (in marvellous language) how it links with and expands our understanding of the money issue: 'I have kept back their foes/while they have told their money and let out/their coin upon large interest, I myself/rich only in hurts. All those for this?/is this the balsam that the usuring senate/pours into captains' wounds?' .
What multiple authorship, here and elsewhere, raises in my mind is the tantalising question of how the overall plan was agreed. But in terms of enjoying the drama, I can't say I greatly care.
btw, since you ask about the races here in Ascot, the big one starts on the 18th, and us locals get almost penned in for four days by a traffic gridlock while the Queen and her (?) friends relive a ceremonial contest. More time to read Timon.

[Lucinda]

Waves to Gabriel in Ascot from Mid Wales. Not nice weather for the races. I was caught up on a crowded train both ways with people going to the Chester Races at Whitsun.
As I said in my comment on Act I, the only copy my library could get for me was a reserved stock copy (which means it had been filed in a basement for years) dating back to 1959 an Arden version, edited by H J Oliver.
He puts forward interesting arguments on the issue of Middleton's co-authorship, suggesting that these are often based on the use of some of Middleton's favourite words, and he points out that they were pretty common, so there is no reason why Shakespeare wouldn't have used them too. He seems to take the view that this was an unpolished draft by Shakespeare,as shown by the verse not being in its usual form.
He suggests that a lack of 'dramatic tension' in the story is the reason why Shakespeare abandoned it.
I must admit that I have never read anything by Middleton, though I know he wrote a play 'A Chaste Maid in Cheapside' (and I just hope she wasn't as annoying as Richardson's Pamela).
Nobody seems to know if this play was performed in Shakespeare's lifetime or not. It seems the first recorded performance was 1761.
I fnd Act III a bit painful in that Timon's so-called friends reveal themselves to be every bit as bad as Apemantes said they were. It was clever of Shakespeare to have one rejection made offstage and only referred to in passing, lest things get too repetitive.
His servant F's request for an unspecified 'So many talents' in Scene II is ridiculous, and does seem to indicate an unfinished part where Shakespeare was going to go back and write them in (it seems he was confused about the value of talents).
The attitude of the two servants of Varros is dismal in 'How does his cashiered worship matter?' They have no reason to despise someone for being poor, but they do I suppose they feel that as he has brought it upon himself, it is blameable in him if not in themselves. But as James said in Act II, they are like 'company men'.
Really, we still don't know anything about Timon, so I can see how a critic of yesteryear said that he 'does not exist as a person'. Maybe Shakespeare meant to fill in more details. Maybe we do hear, later on, what age he is, where his family came by the massive wealth he squandered, etc.
I found the angry scene between the Senators and Alcibades drew me in. I can see there are parallels between that plot and the Tmon one. Both the spendthrift and the warrior have been treated with ingratitude and made outcast from their communities. Alcibades and the steward and a two of the servants seem to make the sum of the admirable characters in this. I believe some critics argue that Apemantus is reasonably admirable in his 'churlish' way, too.

[JamesD]

So immersed in Act 3 and researching who is Plutarch's Timon. Apparently he was a citizen of Athens, and a contemporary of Alcibiades. Plutarch says that timon was legendary for his misanthropy. A rich man's son, he lavished his fortune on flattering friends who then deserted him when the money ran out. He was forced to work in the fields as laborer. One day he dug up a pot of gold in the field he was working. When his flattering friends came back to him to see if he would share again he threw clods of dirt at them. He was from then on an 'angry despiser of mankind'. Interestingly he was said to have held Alcibiades in high regard because he thought that Alcibiades would someday harm Athens. He hated Athens so much.

Looking at scene 4 where Timon comes out raging I was wondering what would come of this.
Scene 5 jumps to court proceedings with Alcibiades pleading for Timon and as a result himself being banned from Athens. In real life the historical Alcibiades fled Athens because of charges of sacrilege against him.
Back at Timon's home for Scene 6 and the Warm Water Banquet scene which is a treat and has some memorable lines from the mouth of Timon.
" ...who stuck and spangled with your flatteries, washes it off and sprinkles in your faces".
" Uncover, dogs, and lap." (when the dishes covers are lifted)
One I especially warm to is " You knot of mouth-fiends!"

Bring on Act 4 I say, though I dare say there is still plenty left to discuss in Act 3.

An interesting note is that the roman Mark Anthony revered the spirit of Timon when he became fed up with too many false friends. He built a retreat at the end of a marine mole in the harbour at Alexandria that he called Timonium, after Timon of Athens, as he considered himself like Timon to be forsaken by his friends and desired to live the rest of his life in solitude.

|Regarding John Painter the translator that I mentioned a while back. It was probably his translations of Plutarch in his book The Palace of Pleasures that Shakespeare/Middleton used as a basis for their play.

[Lucinda]

Fascinating information, James.
That is odd about Mark Anthony admiring Timon'; he comes across as an opportunist himself in 'Julius Caeser', which I believe like 'Anthony and Cleopatra' was based mainly on North's translation of Plutarch, though he shows admirable magnaminity in his praise of Brutus at the end,and in his treatment of that friend's treachery (I've forgotten his name) in 'Anthony and Cleopatra : -'the Barge she sat in' one -'in sending all his goods after him.
Timon's former friends seem to be wholly shameless. You would think that even someone wholly mean (in the UK sense of stingey) and insensitive might think that there might not be a good atmosphere at the banquest, after their betrayals, or that Timon might seek to take his revenge in some way. But no; they don't think of that.

[Candy]

"Men must learn now with pity to dispense;
For policy sits above conscience."

This must be some sort of thesis of the play...it stood out to me so harshly when I read it...it's got to be part of what concerned Shakespeare when he created this strange Timon.

This play fits so soundly with a recurring theme and study by Shakespeare...of what it takes of the best leaders and the worst leaders. Shakespeare has compared and contrasted two archetypes of men...inner-directed men and worldly or outer-directed men. They almost always oppose each other and here I feel he is up to some kind of study with this play...although I am not able to form a complete approach yet.

[JamesD]

Lucinda wrote: "Fascinating information, James.
That is odd about Mark Anthony admiring Timon'; he comes across as an opportunist himself in 'Julius Caeser', which I believe like 'Anthony and Cleopatra' was based..."

Hi Lucinda. About the historical Marcus Antonius aka Mark Anthony: he tried for the world, to be the leader of the Roman world and his allies turned their backs on him and supported someone else. Mark Anthony was mortified. He was in Alexandria, Egypt, at the end of his rope and out on the Mole in his Timonium. He attempted there to kill himself with a sword, thinking that Cleopatra his lover was going to do the same. As he lay there bleeding from his self inflicted wounds he was told that Cleopatra was alive. He asked to be taken to her and as the story goes, died in her arms.
So in the end after a hugely successful and interesting life MK became very disillusioned with humanity like timon did.

[JamesD]

Candy wrote: "There must be someone that Timons represents for Shakespeare...is it possible that it is King James? James court was so different than Elizabeths who she gave the country structure and security ( a..."

James the first of England (though he preferred to say, of great Britain and Ireland) was only recently installed on the throne and in London at the time of the writing of this play. He had his mainly Scottish 'flatterers' with him and to whom he was extravagantly generous. He paid off eye watering debts of his companions before paying off his own. In this we can see a parallel with Timon and a finger point to James with a warning about the dangers of excess.
It was a good point to bring up Candy. I hadn't thought of that, though I did wonder why Shakespeare/Middleton chose this particular story at this particular time to make a play of. It adds some reason to the wonderful ryhmes of the piece.

[JamesD]

JamesD wrote: "Candy wrote: "There must be someone that Timons represents for Shakespeare...is it possible that it is King James? James court was so different than Elizabeths who she gave the country structure an..."

PS Why do you keep calling him Timons?

[Lucinda]

JamesD wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Fascinating information, James.
That is odd about Mark Anthony admiring Timon'; he comes across as an opportunist himself in 'Julius Caeser', which I believe like 'Anthony and Cleo..."

JamesD wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Fascinating information, James.
That is odd about Mark Anthony admiring Timon'; he comes across as an opportunist himself in 'Julius Caeser', which I believe like 'Anthony and Cleo..."

JamesD wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Fascinating information, James.
That is odd about Mark Anthony admiring Timon'; he comes across as an opportunist himself in 'Julius Caeser', which I believe like 'Anthony and Cleo..."

That is an interesting interpretation, James. I had never really thought of Tone as being disillusioned by Cleo's still being alive, so I didn't see him as entirely cynical at that point, unlike Timon. Also, unlike Timon, he never seemed to have much faith in human nature anyway, and had made a political marriage himself which was a form of betrayal of Cleo. But you may well be right. Well, she kills herself rather than be taken by Augustus, anyway. Tone is, as you say, certainly disillusioned by his allies at that point. Anyway, I am wandering too far from the point with this.

[JamesD]

Lucinda wrote: "JamesD wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Fascinating information, James.
That is odd about Mark Anthony admiring Timon'; he comes across as an opportunist himself in 'Julius Caeser', which I believe like 'A..."
Hi Lucinda. The Timon story was well known in Roman times and later in Elizabethan times to anyone who studied the classics, Latin and Greek. That was my point really; that this story (that
I had never heard before) has struck a chord with people down through the ages; over 2000 years!

[Candy]

OOOPS!!!

Sorry everyone...I made a spoiler!!!! I've deleted it. My bad I accidentally posted something in this thread which I intended in another thread. Ugh. LOL

[Lucinda]

Ha, Ha, I missed it, *Candy*.
*James* Let us hope that most of the people don't feel any urge to follow his example; although I suppose, there are limited empty forests these days...