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Semiosis
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"Semiosis" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
I feel like I'm breaking the rules by commenting before the 7th. Scandalous!I went into this novel fairly blind, although from the cover art I gathered there would be some plants involved. I had just finished up my last non fiction book while driving to a hiking spot that happened to be covered in a super bloom. Normally, I would have picked a high fantasy to listen to while I hiked, but Spinning Silver wasn't available for check out at my library and Semiosis was. As it turns out, Semiosis was the perfect book to listen to while hiking in the unusual and beautiful landscape of a super bloom.
The first few chapters weren't really that great for me. Maybe because it sounded a bit desolate and my view as I hiked was anything but. Or maybe because I just wasn't rooting for any of the characters from the first generation. Then suddenly we were skipped a head several years. I was not prepared for that. At first I thought this skipping around was going to be horrible, but the concept grew on me.
The struggles each generation went through, along with their technological de-evolution, and interactions with the new world were very compelling. I loved the concept of an intelligent plant and the ambiguous nature of their "morals". I was certain Stevland was going to become a villain and that the glassmakers had abandoned their city because of Stevland's domestication efforts. I'm really glad it didn't go in that direction in the end.
A few misses for me were the hawks, the stupidity of the returning glassmakers, and the general lack of exploration that happened through the generations. The hawks seemed to be inconsistently intelligent and also seemed like they would not survive on that planet. The glassmakers were desperate and apparently violent by nature, but it seemed pretty clear that they could co habitat with the humans without fighting as they did. Even though the first generation or two had the satellite for exploration, it seems like they didn't really care for anything outside of their little city with Stevland.
That said, I'm very excited for the sequel Interference in November. Maybe I'll have to find another place to hike while I listen to it!
This one was quite difficult for me. I still haven't rated it cause of that. Somebody in the initial impression thread said the beginning reminded them of Planetfall, and I guess it would have been better had I gone into the reading with this in mind. As it was I went into it expecting a story with heavy emphasis on natural science, partly cause this is my fav part of SF and quite rarely to be found.And in this aspect it Just didn't work for me. The first chapter is from the POV of a botanist, and there was little to no deeper science insight. It felt basic and dissapointing. So I was off to a grumpy start.
Since I loved the concept, I was hoping for more science in following chapters, but there was not much. The plants get Earthen names and the bamboo felt extremely anthropomorphized. Honestly, for the first half I was wishing some other author would have written it. ^^'
Then finally in the second half I got my mind around the fact that this isn't a novel about science, but about social dynamics and I started to appreciate the jump from generation to generation to show the developement of a new society. And what happens? The jumping stops and we stay in the same generation. Which got me grumpy again.
I'm really sorry. It's not the book, it's me . ^^'
I liked the novel, for me the author is a rising star, her prose while a little simple has a lot of potential. The idea of many generations is neat.At the same time the very idea of sentient plants needed more polish. If a plant is just a few hours may change its juices to poison then animal life that need generations to evolve stands no chances o such a planet
Paul wrote: "II was certain Stevland was going to become a villain and that the glassmakers had abandoned their city because of Stevland's domestication efforts. I'm really glad it didn't go in that direction in the end. ..."I had the exact same feeling up until almost the very end. I am also glad it went a different way. Stevland felt like all the AI we see in Sci-Fi that inevitably turns on humanity, but I really like AI stories that go the other way. So this felt very rewarding.
I was frustrated with the parents when we got to Sylvia's chapter. The Parents were supposed to get rid of the things that had turned Earth on it's head. Blindly following your elders is kind of a big one. I'm glad they turned that around in future generations. Although I was not a fan of Sylvia's characterization in her POV chapter. She seemed a bit like an airhead. Then all of a sudden she's leading the revolution. It just felt off.
I really enjoyed Stevland's POV. I giggled every time he wondered what plant the humans had been trained by. His outlook on things was so interesting. The whole thing with the humor root was great.
I have tried to imitate human existence by isolating groves to experience your viewpoint, although isolating my viewpoint in my humor root offered insights of doubtful utility.
I also really enjoyed his interactions with the other plants. I wish we had gotten more of that. I am however very glad we did not have the orange's POV as they were being slaughtered. I don't think I could have handled that.
The very childish part of me also got probably too much amusement about the whole "gift" thing.
He didn’t say anything. He was probably shocked giftless. That was kind of what I’d hoped for.
I like to pretend I'm sophisticated and prefer cerebral comedy. But sometimes nothing beats a good old fashioned poop joke.
One question I did have was about the rule that generations can't sleep together. Does anyone know why this is? It would seem that the youngest of some generations would be really close to the oldest in others. I would think more gene combinations would make for greater diversity. It was only mentioned a couple of times, and it felt like a throwaway concept. I don't think it needed to be there.
Overall, really enjoyed this book more than I thought I wood. (Especially all the plant related puns in the threads!)
This book drew me in from the beginning. I was a little disappointed to be introduced to different POV characters with each chapter/generation, but there was enough of a tie to the last generation to maintain continuity. I found the prose easy to read with occasional well-turned phrases. I’m about halfway through the whole book so I’ve a ways to go. Regarding the prohibition against sleeping outside of one’s generation, not sure I totally understand that. What in the Parents experience caused them to make that rule? I think a greater danger was interbreeding within generations since a few fertile males impregnated most of the women. One thing I did find interesting was the idea that women chose infertile males as mates so the woman could control when and by whom she was impregnated. I put aside a book from another book club to read this one, so I need to finish and get back to the first one, even though it is less interesting. Good pick, this one!
Paul wrote: "The first few chapters weren't really that great for me."It sounds like the initial chapters didn't grab many (most?) people, but I really enjoyed them. They struck me as a poignant picture of social collapse:
1. Idealists leave Earth to escape all the violence and conflict.
2. Things don't go at all according to plan.
3. Over the years, stress leads to dissensions, which devolves into chaos, maybe thanks to the seeds of violence and conflict they brought with them.
4. The new generation leaves the old to start fresh.
Gabi wrote: "And what happens? The jumping stops and we stay in the same generation. Which got me grumpy again."
It's funny, but I actually liked the shifting narrative structure, too.
When the book started looking like a series of generational short stories, that was kind of cool, especially given how distinct the characters' voices were. But then when it settled down into the final era, it felt like we were exploring what it all build up to.
I'm disappointed we didn't learn more about why the Glassmaker civilization collapsed, especially since that question was asked several times.
But otherwise, I enjoyed it from start to finish. Impressive world-building, and a fascinating look at two very different intelligences coming to terms with each other.
"Meanwhile, I contact the pineapples. They are intelligent but stubborn.""I am distracted. The lentils are sobbing."
Stevland's conversations with the other plants were some of my favorite things. Like the "change sap for bugs" thing with the snow vine. The audiobook narrator did excellent plant voices!
I agree with most of Gabi's comment. I read this last year expecting far more plant biology, less bickering humans. Every time things started to get interesting, like the humans starting to communicate with Stevland, we'd skip to a new generation. Then once the interesting plant stuff was pretty much over, there were no more time jumps. I loved the native flora and fauna, and the world in general. I hated almost everyone from off planet.
Anna wrote: "The audiobook narrator did excellent plant voices!"I think this may be one of the single most delightful things I have ever heard said about an audiobook. It makes me sad that I've never been able to get used to audiobooks. I want to hear the plant voices!
Anna wrote: "Stevland's conversations with the other plants were some of my favorite things..."Me too! I laughed out loud at his characterization of the oranges: “They refuse because oranges are naturally insubordinate.” And “[The orange trees] wish me and my fellow Pacifists harm.”
I also liked: “Don’t be a tulip.” Hilarious!
So I had lots of feelings about this book. I'm another person who really didn't like the first few chapters, but I enjoyed the last few a lot. For me, the way the story skipped from generation to generation was fine, but I felt like many of the narrators in the early parts of the book sounded too similar - secretive, a bit misanthropic, very focused on themselves. I didn't particularly care for this voice or the way the story in these sections was really focused on the actions of those individuals. One thing I enjoyed about the last few chapters was that the voices felt more varied and there was more of a sense of the community, rather than just the individual.
Like Anna, some of my favorite parts were Stevland talking with the other plants. I was very glad he didn't end up being evil, because I thought the process of adjustment as he and the humans learned to live together was one of the most interesting things in the book.
I didn't like the way the book navigated sexuality at all - the social dynamics in general annoyed me, but especially everything dealing with sex. The prohibition against sex between people of different generations reminded me of MZB's Darkover books. The rationale there, I believe, was that you wouldn't always know which individuals from your parents' generation were actually your parents, so you shouldn't sleep with any of them. It seems like potentially this might be the same problem here?
Mod
I liked the parts with the plants a lot. I would have liked more about their world and why the glassmakers forsook them?
But a rape survivor that just brushes it off to lead a coup and everyone's like "yeah, that makes sense, let's just have a murderer teen lead our way" really irritated me. Followed by a chapter of a guy who just wants to drink, screw, and play with kids and animals and doesn't understand why that's not enough to get any girl he wants. I was just not interested in that viewpoint. ESPECIALLY just after a rape scene.
I really liked having the generations change and the chapters start to incorporate Stevland! It grew stronger for me as the story went, though I was also a bit confused at how many times the tone/thrust of the story changed. I didn't expect it to ultimately be about fighting somewhat native aliens.
I can’t remember numbers, but they had a lot of genetic material from Earth in the freezer in addition to the colonists.
Mod
That's true. But I think they said they were beginning to run out by gen 3? It's been a minute, so I may have the wrong.
I also don’t remember, but for sure they started out with more than 50 sets of genes.
@Allison: I think the thing that frustrated me most was that almost every mention of sex was either 1) rape or 2) some guy who sleeps with everyone. I really wished there was more, like, average (whatever that looks like for this society!) relationships, both sexual and romantic. Also, you know, same-sex relationships where it wasn't just "there aren't enough women" or "he sleeps with everyone".
Kaa wrote: "The rationale there, I believe, was that you wouldn't always know which individuals from your parents' generation were actually your parents, so you shouldn't sleep with any of them. It seems like potentially this might be the same problem here? "I'm not sure but the chance of getting offspring with a parent in this story is offset by getting offspring with a (half?-)sibling, which is gene-wise close.
Mod
Yep, I agree with this.
It seems like I'm in the minority that liked it from the beginning. I really liked chapter 3 with Higgins. I know there are some problems there, but I just loved seeing how the society had grown and changed at that point. I wasn't fond of Higgins himself, but I was really interested in the Fippolions and Fippokats and the animal trainer aspect. Then of course in that chapter was Stevland getting a POV for the first time. At that point I was still kind of dreading the bamboo and it was nice to see that it wasn't as sinister as I originally thought.My absolute favorite chapter was 4 with Tatiana. It just really continued the evolution of the society to the point where we have our first real criminal. I loved the police procedural style story at that point, and how Tatiana tempered Stevland and made him understand humans more.
Then in chapter 5 and onward, I enjoyed the interaction with the Glassmakers, and by chapter 6, I felt like Stevland was truly one of the Pacifists without ulterior motives, and loved seeing him fight for the colony and deal with emotions. Plant talk was fun too.
Mod
I can't not like a book that gives us glorious sentences like this.
I also liked Tatiana's chapters. And I thought the first contact with the glassmakers was good too, in that it felt super alien and viscerally upsetting, but I liked that at that point their Pax mythos had asserted itself strongly enough that they followed their supposed creed.
Semiosis opened my mind to new science fiction ideas. I mean, people are so concerned with technology becoming sentient and taking over but, in reality, plants are already alive so it’s only a matter of time before they gain sentience and start communicating with us. I didn’t want to admit it but I bought this book because I was partial to the Drosera-like plant on the cover, being the carnivorous plant cultivator that I am. I didn’t find myself enjoying it at first but I made like a sundew & stuck to it.
It wasn’t until Steveland began his communication that my interests were peeked. That was during Higgins chapter. It was a little weird being in a bamboo plants mind at first but I learned to enjoy it, especially when he started talking to other plants to help the colony. I liked how the range intelligence gave each plant their own personality.
I had that suspicion when Steveland didn’t want the people to communicate the Glassmakers. I thought he was gonna be this evil plant that scared the Glassmakers away. I mean, it was super insistent on becoming leader of the human colony. It turns out the Glassmakers were huge jerks & Steveland was only looking out. I feel like the controlling nature the plant made for interesting conflict and the plants genuine aptitude to protect humanity was what exceeded my expectations.
Nye’s chapter was my favorite. I really enjoyed the disappointment when they finally met the Glassmakers. I liked the fact that after all the aggressive and wrong behavior the Glassmakers expressed that the humans still kept their peacekeeping mentality. The struggle for humanity to distance themselves from their violent ancestors was a theme I found interesting. Even though the Glassmakers didn’t quite get it the group was able to keep their cool, learn about the beings, and do what they needed to to get home safe.
Semiosis is definitely an original story with unique ideas and that’s what I appreciated the most about it.
Steqhanie wrote: " plants are already alive so it’s only a matter of time before they gain sentience and start communicating with us. "Why would they be interested in communicating with us if they already for 5000 years (dawn of agriculture) boss us around just fine :)
Oleksandr wrote: "Why would they be interested in communicating with us if they already for 5000 years (dawn of agriculture) boss us around just fine :)"Ah yes, silent rulers they are.
First of all: floating plants! Cactus balloon plants! Those might have been my very favorite worldbuilding detail. I've never considered floating plants before.This book was a mixed bag for me. I enjoyed the worldbuilding, and I enjoyed Stevland's character very much. I loved Stevland communicating with other plants. I enjoyed the experience of not knowing how trustworthy, how sincere Stevland was, and I was pleased with his growth and development. But I spent most of the book not enjoying the human characters--the narration felt so uniformly flat--and second-guessing/criticizing Burke's depiction of humans in general.
And also...the genetic diversity stuff, as mentioned above. They mention losing half of the stored genetic material by the second generation, and then when they celebrate the 100th Pacifist, that's Higgins' 12th direct offspring. :/ I know they're prioritizing survival over genetic diversity, but it still made me antsy.
I'm still not sure I "get" the very strict generations stuff. The no cross-generation sexual relationships (like Kaa mentioned above! there'll be younger people in one generation who are closer in age to the oldest people in the next generation, and they might not have any common ancestors to worry about, so why shouldn't they have reproduce together?), and the overtly ostentatious markers of generations (this generation wears beads! this one dyes their hair green! this one paints their faces! ...I just never got why). I understood the big distinction between the first two generations, the Parents and the Children, why they'd be so philosophically opposed, but the rest? I don't understand yet why they'd be purposely making themselves so distinct and separate from each other.
Megan wrote: "I understood the big distinction between the first two generations, the Parents and the Children, why they'd be so philosophically opposed, but the rest? I don't understand yet why they'd be purposely making themselves so distinct and separate from each other. "This was really interesting to me and it felt really current. Recently, in the real world, there has been a lot about the different generations and how they handle change and politics and life in general. So to me it felt like a commentary on that. How the Boomers, Gen X, Millennials and Gen Z are all going about the world in very different ways. But in this story, instead of causing fighting and tension, it was something that was celebrated. The generations were much more distinct in the story than in the real world of course, but I kind of liked it.
Kristin B. wrote: "But in this story, instead of causing fighting and tension, it was something that was celebrated. The generations were much more distinct in the story than in the real world of course, but I kind of liked it."That's a good observation! In the real world, it can feel like generational differences are all tension and negative stereotypes, used to dismiss each other. In the book, I didn't get the impression that Pacifists (post-Sylvia's revolution, at least) were discounted simply because of their generation (the youngest all got to vote, too!) and that having some proactive power over the symbols of the generation might play a part in that.
Megan wrote: "But I spent most of the book not enjoying the human characters--the narration felt so uniformly flat--and second-guessing/criticizing Burke's depiction of humans in general."So much this. I could have enjoyed one or two unpleasant narrators, especially if they were interesting. But it felt like almost all of the narrators (except Stevland) were not only very unpleasant, they were unpleasant in very similar ways. Basically none of the characters except the sentient bamboo felt like they had any unique personality.
Kristin B. wrote: "So to me it felt like a commentary on that. How the Boomers, Gen X, Millennials and Gen Z are all going about the world in very different ways. But in this story, instead of causing fighting and tension, it was something that was celebrated."
Oh, I like this perspective!
Yeah, I was hoping for the colony to fail the whole way to the end. I just disliked everyone completely. Which is a shame because I thought the concept behind this book was really cool and I kept telling myself that it would get better in the next chapter. Nope.
I am glad that I’m not the only one who found this book problematic because I wanted so much to like it. I work in forest management and the idea of sentient plants was an intriguing and unique sci-fi premise. I did like the science, using amino acids and sugars to communicate and control, and the idea of animals, including humans, being servants to the plant community was explored in a really interesting, thought provoking way. Like others, I didn’t care for the humans characters. By the time I got to the fifth or sixth chapter, the humans were all starting to blur together because they reacted and interacted in the same way. Even the main characters felt one dimensional. I felt like Burke was trying to tell too many stories at once: the development of a sentient plant story, a human colony on a distant planet story, a utopian society story, a generational story, and finally the alien/human encounter story. Ultimately I think that each of these stories did not get as much attention as they should have and that’s why the characters and stories felt flat to me.
I have read this twice, both times slowly and relatively carefully. I don't disagree strongly with the negative points made above, but I think maybe sometimes a few of you aren't fully appreciating what Burke is presenting.The genetic diversity is addressed... perhaps insufficiently, but we're to accept that some of the problems of population (non)growth may well have been due to 'inbreeding.'
However, the main thing of interest is the culture that is growing & developing. Every generation reinvents itself pretty much wholesale, as symbolized by Greenies and Beadies. Sylvia was indeed a teen, and even though she learned a lot from her explorations and conversations with Julian and from her experiences, she didn't have years of schooling and living on Earth to guide her. None of them do. They don't have the Sabbath, or the Koran, or the Buddha, or Cinco de Mayo, or New Year's Eve, or Worker's Day, or Mother's Day, or Aesop's Fables, or Alice in Wonderland, or Shakespeare... no touchstones except the Constitution, no traditions except those they invent.
So, they invent rules that don't necessarily make a ton of sense. And often those rules get overturned in a generation or two. I really wish the generations had continued. I have a sense of where Burke is theorizing this could all go, but the 'negotiations' with the Glassmakers couldn't have taken fewer pages to tell... maybe the sequel will resume in the future.
I'm also especially glad that Stevland's motivations, that developed in concert with his developing intelligence, were explored.
I did find each human character distinct, but that may be because I read it twice and also I have lots of experience reading short stories, which the generational chapters resembled.
I admit that I still don't understand the eagles (not hawks)... but then, I don't think the Pacifists understand them either.
My only book-dart marks this very special line, as spoken by Bartholomew: "I suppose an operational definition of sentience is saying you have it."
Mod
This is one I might read again at some point, or perhaps listen to if I can find it in a audio book. The switch between narrators didn’t bother me, and I kind of enjoyed seeing each generation through different eyes. As I read, I wished for more breaks in the narrative so I could think about what had happened in each generation.It was amusing how they named the flora and fauna on the planet by giving them almost chimeric names—deer crab, for example, and lentil trees. The animals or plants weren’t really described, but I formed a mental picture of them from their names.
I didn’t understand all of the biology, but it was interesting. Someone up topic commented on how quickly the plants adapted—like producing poison. Perhaps that is a little far fetched, but it wasn’t to hard for me to imagine that a plant could draw substances from the soil or air and introduce it into other parts of the plant structure. I guess in this case not knowing a lot about biology was an advantage to enjoying the story.
You I recall reading recently about research that showed plants can react quickly when attacked by pests and can send pheromone or chemical messages to the other plants around them warming them; and in turn those plants did....something. That’s where my memory runs out. But not as far fetched as it might sound - there is at little a little basis for it in science.....
Ah from a Smithsonian article:Trees share water and nutrients through the networks, and also use them to communicate. They send distress signals about drought and disease, for example, or insect attacks, and other trees alter their behavior when they receive these messages.” Scientists call these mycorrhizal networks
Cheryl, great points!Dayna wrote: "Someone up topic commented on how quickly the plants adapted—like producing poison. Perhaps that is a little far fetched, but it wasn’t to hard for me to imagine that a plant could draw substances from the soil or air and introduce it into other parts of the plant structure."
As people noted, Earth plants also adapt quite quickly. My point was that the adaptation in the book wouldn't make animal life possible - If a plant overnight can turn poisonous (how does it know what is poisonous) while animals need a reproduction to create mutants resistant to poison they could never compete
Oleksandr wrote: "As people noted, Earth plants also adapt quite quickly. My point was that the adaptation in the book wouldn't make animal life possible - If a plant overnight can turn poisonous (how does it know what is poisonous) while animals need a reproduction to create mutants resistant to poison they could never compete ..."In most cases, though, the plants don't want to kill off the animals. They need them for things like seed dispersal, pollination, soil fertilization and aeration. As Stevland puts it, the animals are trained. So the plants would not benefit from killing off the animals.
Mod
But, if plants saw humans the way humans see house pets, that'd help our survival haha
Allison wrote: "But, if plants saw humans the way humans see house pets, that'd help our survival haha ..."I am totally here for being the pampered house pet of some photosynthetic overlords.
Mod
I am totally here for being the pampered house pet of some photosynthetic overlords."
#thedream
Looking back over this thread, it sounds like I'm not the only one to have issues with the first few chapters. I found it totally unbelievable that this group of idealists would turn into rigid authoritarians in 20 or 30 years. And the idea that the parents would order rapes and murders to deal with rebellious teens just seemed ridiculous. But i agree that the later chapters featuring more of Stevland, especially his (its?) interactions and characterizations of the other plants were so entertaining. Bugs eat sap.
Kristin B. wrote: "In most cases, though, the plants don't want to kill off the animals. They need them for things like seed dispersal, pollination, soil fertilization and aeration. As Stevland puts it, the animals are trained. So the plants would not benefit from killing off the animals."All try but we should mix history of evolution and the present situation. (I guess we all believe in evolution, right?) Animals used the way you correctly described but it is unlikely that it started that way. Current theory for say evolution of pollination: insects eat/drink juice near plant seeds, a successful mutation puts juice/special treat closer to sexual organs and insect accidentally pollinates them. But in our story it is unlikely that a plant could have predicted it - heck, the humanity (as a multitude, supermind) cannot well enough predict effects of Anthropocene
Oleksandr wrote: "All try but we should mix history of evolution and the present situation. (I guess we all believe in evolution, right?) Animals used the way you correctly described but it is unlikely that it started that way. Current theory for say evolution of pollination: insects eat/drink juice near plant seeds, a successful mutation puts juice/special treat closer to sexual organs and insect accidentally pollinates them. But in our story it is unlikely that a plant could have predicted it - heck, the humanity (as a multitude, supermind) cannot well enough predict effects of Anthropocene ."I see where you're going. But as Stevland points out he wasn't as aware when he was younger. So we could apply that to all the other plants as well. While they wouldn't have been able to predict using animals, they wouldn't have been evolved enough to think much about it. So it would have originally happened by accident (like you pointed out) before the plants became aware enough to want to poison animals. Then, by the time the plants had evolved enough to become aware and start doing things on purpose, they would have realized the value of the animals and wouldn't want to kill them off.
(Side note. This is a delightful thought exercise and considering the thought processes of plants is possibly the most fun I've had in a book discussion.) (That and all the puns!)
Kristin B. wrote: "Allison wrote: "But, if plants saw humans the way humans see house pets, that'd help our survival haha ..."I am totally here for being the pampered house pet of some photosynthetic overlords."
I think that's actually more than just humorous, but one of the main points of the book. Is the humans r'ship w/ Stevland truly symbiotic, of mutual benefit? Or do the humans risk giving up too much freedom? Or does their Constitution actually require them to live even more symbiotically than they do now?
Ariana wrote: "Looking back over this thread, it sounds like I'm not the only one to have issues with the first few chapters. I found it totally unbelievable that this group of idealists would turn into rigid authoritarians in 20 or 30 years..."I admire your faith in our better nature. I wish that I shared it.
Again, given who these ppl were, why they chose to become colonists, what they found on Pax. and what happened to them there, I think it's very likely that they'd be even more likely to act from fear and respond to authoritarian leadership and interpret rules literally and distrust new ideas... more likely than for us here comfortably reading our fiction and talking about it on our digital devices, anyway.
My interpretation.
Mod
Even then, that tends to be frowned upon as a public response.
I thought the fear was a bit over the top though. So afraid of a city you'd rather kill one of the remaining ~50 humans rather than brave a plant? I dunno, that seems like a stretch.
In the general theory, I get it. It is a matter of survival that some people are inclined to believe that doing something different is better and some will think it's dangerous. That's just good sense, not to commit everyone to the same potentially ruinous fate. But there are ways humans tend to respond to these things, and generally if the "change is dangerous" people get a say, the path is retribution. So, like, maiming her so that she couldn't walk or talk or something...maybe. Rape though? That's a veeery different message, and serves a completely different mindset which wasn't well explained to me.
I do like the way you posed the questions, Cheryl! I wish there'd been more focus on that and less focus on breeding and fight scenes, personally.
I support Cheryl on it is quite easy to turn idealists to supporters of authoritarian leadership, esp. bearing in mind that their ideals weren't for personal freedom as such. The phrase that blow my mind in the first colonist words: "We brought educational programs in our computers for our children that left out Earthly irrationalities like money, religion, and war."
Allison, would you mind expanding on your assertion that rape sends a different message than physically maiming for what the Parents were going for?
Mod
But that said, the question puts me in a bit of a tight spot. I have to either assume your question comes from a place of knowledge or inexperience. If I assume the former, I have no desire to 'splain anything and it would hurt me tremendously to treat anything clinically in that moment, or to invalidate any responses. If I assume the latter, then I'm asking folks with knowledge to watch as we have a measured conversation about something that is so very personal, and I really don't want to give them the impression that anything they may have lived through is up for debate.
So, I'm afraid I won't provide a full answer, and I will put what I hope clarifies things behind spoiler tags so that if anyone would rather not participate, they may continue on!
(view spoiler)
I hope I've done okay, and I apologize for any unintentional hurt or clumsiness in my words. I know that as this is a very personal topic and I've painted it with such a broad brush that I am likely not doing this the justice I ought, but I think it's worth addressing.
I thank you for your explanation, Allison. I learned a lot. I mean, what you say makes so much sense that I'm sure I kinda understood it before, but it helps so much to have it in words. And yes, Semiosis does seem to misuse trauma in that way. (However, if Burke is a survivor, then lucky people like me who have no personal experience can't dismiss what she's exploring.)
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Interference (other topics)Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang (other topics)
Foundation (other topics)
Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang (other topics)
Children of Time (other topics)
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What did you think of the structure of the chapters?
Did the biology component work for you?
Which subplot did you like best?