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Sylvester Group Read May 2019 Spoilers thread
Hah! I re-read Sylvester about a year ago...and really liked it. I'll definitely be reading it again. And next month is one of my absolute faves!
Theresa wrote: "Hah! I re-read Sylvester about a year ago...and really liked it. I'll definitely be reading it again. And next month is one of my absolute faves!"Hi Theresa
I hope you read that I made a blue & it is Venetia now, not the Unknown Ajax.
& on to Sylvester. I loved this read, but I had a quibble. This may be meant to show Sylvester as being a tad unreasonable but... it had been four years since Harry's death. How long did Sylvester think Ianthe should wait to remarry?
Sylvester really was unreasonable at the beginning of the book. Too hard on Ianthe (well, I guess that's debatable) but arrogant at least when even his Mother is worried about that. it's my biggest complaint against the abridged audio book: it doesn't show this. It cut out the part where he offers to ruthlessly get rid of his Mother's companion and then when they discuss his marriage it cut out where he explains how love matches are always terrible. So cynical!
Really, it's an abomination to cut out big chunks of Heyer's work!
I think the beginning clearly shows Sylvester isn't thinking straight when it comes to Harry, or his family in general. I expect that some of that was the twin bond, abruptly broken, and also Ianthe's nature too....
I agree with Maith. HIs unusually strong bond with his twin and his sense of obligation and love for Edmund make him unusually hard on Ianthe. I think if there hadn't been Edmund to consider he would not have minded Ianthe re-marrying quite so much.
Maith wrote: "I think the beginning clearly shows Sylvester isn't thinking straight when it comes to Harry, or his family in general. I expect that some of that was the twin bond, abruptly broken, and also Ianthe's..."& such an unworthy replacement for Harry too.
He does have a legitimate concern that neither Ianthe nor her fiancé would be a responsible parent, and in a ducal family any male scion would be an important figure. If Sylvester has no male heirs, Edmund would have to learn how to manage vast estates and other assets. That said, clearly Sylvester and Ianthe are oil and water and exaggerate each other's flaws.
I don't think he really cares if Ianthe re-marries. He doesn't want to give her son into the care of her and her despised prospective husband, for which I can't blame him. And Ianthe wants to take her son with her when she leaves for her new marriage. I can't decide if Ianthe really has much maternal love, or if she doesn't want to appear unfeeling. She talks a lot about how much she loves her son and wants him to live with her, but she doesn't actually have much of a relationship with him.
I think she doesn't want to appear unfeeling but I think she is more concerned with her own feelings than anyone elses. Of course, it was not unusual for parents to keep a distance from their children. I think we can already see that Sylvester is genuinely fond of Edmund, this together with his affection for his mother and his twin show that he is capable of a depth of emotion which redeems him from his less likeable traits and hints that if a woman can engage his affections, she will be a lucky lady.
I think he finds Ianthe shallow and 'not good enough' for Harry - either alive or dead. Her choice of second husband feels to him like an insult to her first, but whatever she does he won't like it, because fundamentally she wasn't - in his eyes - worthy of his brother. Plus, of course, he doesn't want Edmund to be brought up by that pair, and who can blame him? That comes from his affection for Edmund personally, as well as for Harry's son (and his potential heir). He does say that Ianthe can have Edmund visit her as often as she likes.
I don't think Ianthe has genuine feelings for anyone except herself - Edmund is just one of the possessions she has that create the image she likes to present to the world (and believe of herself).
Good points, everyone. I love how Heyer shows us right from the beginning that Sylvester is redeemable and worthy of being the hero of this story. We see his very stiff, "ducal" side, but his softer side is also shown when he's looking out the window at Edmund and then again with his tender, affectionate interaction with his mother, and his remembrances of Harry.I wonder what life would have been like, if Harry had lived. I can't imagine Sylvester's twin being leg-shackled to Ianthe for the rest of his life. I can maybe see her whining to him for the rest of his life because he hadn't managed to be born before Sylvester so that she could be the Duchess! I think Ianthe is all about Ianthe.
Jane wrote: "I think Ianthe is all about Ianthe."I agree with this 100%
I think it couldn't have been any other way really. Sylvester is right to refuse to let Ianthe take Edmund when she remarries, she's a bad mother. She makes a show of spoiling Edmund when she wants people to admire her motherly devotion, and the rest of the time she neglects him. And Fotherby is not a good role-model for a boy and he wouldn't be a good father!
On the other hand, I have a sneaking suspicion tht Sylvester would never have let Edmund, his ward and heir, be raised elsewhere. Even if Ianthe had been a model mother and marrying a rational man, Sylvester would still have wanted to keep Edmund at home because Harry left him to Sylvester's care. And that would've been much harder to sympathise with, as a reader!
I think Sylvester needed to have more of a sense of humor about his eyebrows. If he had laughed it off instead of making a scene, the ton would have laughed too. Of course Ianthe is a ninnyhammer and should have kept her mouth shut but Sylvester is too hard on Phoebe. As a Duke he knows the social rules and to fight with Phoebe on the middle of the dance floor is a massive faux pax for someone who holds himself as a standard of behavior. That whole scene ruined the book for me. I expected much better from a Heyer couple.
Funny, one of the things I like about this book is that both hero and heroine are so passionate that they don’t always behave well! Their emotions overtake them. So I take his cruelty in the ballroom scene as an expression of the intense and conflicted emotions he’s experiencing. And it kinda gives Phoebe the upper hand when she was in a weak position ethically to start.
For me, the ballroom scene is the main reason I re-read the book! The angst level is through the roof! By the time I get to his woeful 'Mama, I've made such a mull of it' I am once again convinced that he really does love Phoebe and that will be well. Happy sigh...
QNPoohBear wrote: "I think Sylvester needed to have more of a sense of humor about his eyebrows. If he had laughed it off instead of making a scene, the ton would have laughed too. Of course Ianthe is a ninnyhammer a..."I don't think Sylvester minds about his eyebrows. Same as there is no sign that he minds not being all that tall. I always visualise Sylvester as 5ft 9in, but GH could well have meant us to see him as shorter than that.It was brilliant of GH to give Sylvester such a distinctive facial characteristic so there can be no doubt who Phoebe is parodying.
Sylvester reacts badly not only because he was angry but because he was hurt. The book says Sylvester thought he had himself well in hand, until he touched Phoebe.
I also enjoyed the ballroom scene. The fact that Sylvester loses control even though he did not mean to points towards his conflicted emotions about Pheobe. If another person for whom he felt little regard had been the culprit, I feel his reaction would have been very different.
Abigail wrote: "Funny, one of the things I like about this book is that both hero and heroine are so passionate that they don’t always behave well! Their emotions overtake them. So I take his cruelty in the ballro..."that's a very good point, Abigail.
I hate the ballroom scene too, I find it painful to listen to or read and skim it as quickly as possible. I love the last few chapters after they return from France. I listened to them this morning doing my housework and crying my eyes out. The ending always makes me forgive Sylvester’s previous arrogance and high handedness and the awful way that men in this period could be given custody of a woman’s child without her consent. I don’t think Ianthe a good parent, but as others have commented a selfish, self centred one If however the decision is taken from her hands I think she will enjoy vilifying Sylvester and miss Edmund very little.
It is puzzling that Harry didn't give joint custody to Sylvester & Ianthe. We are told by Lady Salford that she believes Ianthe was "most sincerely attached" to Harry. It is important to the plot that Sylvester have full custody, but - odd.I love the way GH depicts Sylvester's grief both at the loss of Harry & Phoebe rejecting him. Moves me to tears.
Losing Harry brought Sylvester's arrogance to the fore.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "It is puzzling that Harry didn't give joint custody to Sylvester & Ianthe. We are told by Lady Salford that she believes Ianthe was "most sincerely attached" to Harry. It is important to the plot t..."I agree, I found that so sad and touching at the end, where the duchess sees Sylvester’s face and realizes he is as devastated as when he lost Harry. I enjoyed this reread so much!
QNPoohBear wrote: "I think Sylvester needed to have more of a sense of humor about his eyebrows. If he had laughed it off instead of making a scene, the ton would have laughed too. Of course Ianthe is a ninnyhammer a..."I think he admits later that he went to the ball intending to play it cool and laugh it off, but the fact that he lost his cool so thoroughly just reinforces how hurt he is — and how strongly he feels about Phoebe. It was incredibly rude and he knows it!
Susan in NC wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "I think Sylvester needed to have more of a sense of humor about his eyebrows. If he had laughed it off instead of making a scene, the ton would have laughed too. Of course Ianthe..."Poor Sylvester knew he was in the wrong the minute the words left his mouth. His cry of 'Sparrow', as the distraught Phoebe turns to leave him standing alone in the middle of the dance floor just gets to me every time. It wasn't just rude, it was cruel, and there's no way for him to rewind the scene and try again.
I think Heyer does a masterful job of creating complex characters in both Sylvester and Phoebe. Yes, he is arrogant, sometimes even cruel, but she always shows us the sterling character underneath. She also makes this paradox believable. Back in Regency times, being a duke (especially a SINGLE duke!) was akin to being a Hollywood A-lister today. Everywhere he goes, people are fawning over him, complimenting him--no one ever tells him no. Try as a person might, it would be very hard for that to not have some effect on your character and behavior.I agree with Carol about his eyebrows. I don't think he cares two bits about her criticism of his looks. His pride is wounded at being made a laughingstock, and he's hurt that she apparently sees him in this light. He's hurt and angry, remembering all the laughter they've shared, and she never once mentioned that this was coming out. I'm sure he feels sucker-punched! The fact that he can't control himself is a testament to how deeply he is hurt.
On the other hand, is there ANYTHING better than Sylvester's attempt to propose to her in the chaise after the trip to France? "He was silent. Well! now she knew how right she had been. He was not in the least in love with her, and very happy she was to know it. All she wanted was a suitable retreat, such as a lumber-room, or a coal-cellar, in which to enjoy her happiness to the full," (386). So funny!!
The answer to the above question is yes, there is something better! And that would be when the Duchess brings the two of them together. That scene, from the time Phoebe enters the Duchess's room, to the end of the book, is utter perfection (imho)!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "I think Sylvester needed to have more of a sense of humor about his eyebrows. If he had laughed it off instead of making a scene, the ton would have laughed t..."So true - the old toothpaste out of the tube...
Cindy wrote: "The answer to the above question is yes, there is something better! And that would be when the Duchess brings the two of them together. That scene, from the time Phoebe enters the Duchess's room, t..."Yes, I loved it, what a perfect ending...
I wonder if perhaps Phoebe is in part a self portrait, she seems to share several of GH’s literary talents, a gift for humorous portraiture, the swift unerring sketches of minor characters and of course her wickedly diverting dialogue. GH also shunned the limelight, perhaps she was also nervous and of strangers as Phoebe is, happier with a small circle of family and close friends. I also wonder a little how Phoebe would cope with being displayed to the world the way the royal duchesses are nowadays.
Interesting idea, Yvonne! Phoebe even looks rather like Georgette Heyer.
Yes, I agree too, that's a really perceptive comment, Yvonne!I wonder if Rougier had impressive eyebrows?
Darn it, I returned the biography so I can’t check the photos section for eyebrows- to the Google mobile!
Susan in NC wrote: "Darn it, I returned the biography so I can’t check the photos section for eyebrows- to the Google mobile!"LOL!
yes, what a good idea Yvonne, Phoebe is an author so it totally makes sense.
Here’s a photo that shows her husband on the left. No physical resemblance. And I don’t think he was much of a Sylvester type—too easygoing and supportive—based on the biography. So while she may have seen some of her younger self in Phoebe, this book doesn’t seem to have many autobiographical elements.https://jenniferkloester.com/heyer-so...
I always thought the original inspiration was Glenarvon. Gh wanted to take the idea of a Roman a Clef even further. & she wanted to create a disastrous Darcy style proposal & whipped it all together into a really original mix.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I always thought the original inspiration was Glenarvon. Gh wanted to take the idea of a Roman a Clef even further. & she wanted to a disastrous Darcy style proposal & whipped it all..."It certainly was an original mix, and a darned fun read (and listen).
Susan in NC wrote: "Darn it, I returned the biography so I can’t check the photos section for eyebrows- to the Google mobile!"He didn't Susan. Just ordinary ones like us other mortals:)
Teresa wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Darn it, I returned the biography so I can’t check the photos section for eyebrows- to the Google mobile!"He didn't Susan. Just ordinary ones like us other mortals:)"
Lol!
I just finished and had such a good time! One of Heyer’s most satisfying books for me. I love the humor, the range of characters from Sir Nugent to Edmund, the fact that there’s just enough of Lady Ianthe and not too much, the intensity between the hero and heroine, the combination of innocence and quick perceptiveness in the heroine, and the kindness of Sylvester’s mother. I have always enjoyed those of her novels that take us to France, as well.
Mod
Well, of course Sylvester isn't royal, so no danger of that - and part of the upper class's horror of 'scandal' (being in the news for any reason at all) was due to that very reason, a distaste for being a public display. Even to talk about a lady was 'bandying her name about in public' and the reason the two ladies in other books who get involved in public carriage races are in such trouble with their menfolk is because it's making them newsworthy. Indeed, the reason why Phoebe's book causes such anger is because it's getting people talked about.
The newspapers and public gossip were bad enough for the upper classes in those days - none of them would be able to cope with the modern mass media and the internet!
Mod
I think 'custody' is a modern concept deriving from our divorce laws and more concerned with where a child lives. Edmund was left to Sylvester's guardianship, which is a bit different - it's more concerned with who makes the decisions on behalf of a child than where it lives, in which case according to the notions of the time it would make perfect sense for a boy's uncle to be his guardian rather than his mother.
Even if Harry had lived, Ianthe would have had very little say in where he went to school or what profession he took up, so there's no reason why she should have been given that power after his death (especially if Harry knew what she was like!)
Jenny wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "It is puzzling that Harry didn't give joint custody to Sylvester & Ianthe. ..."I think 'custody' is a modern concept deriving from our divorce laws and more concern..."
Very true - the terms of Harry’s will make it clear hewas realistic about his beautiful wife - even if he didn’t realize how self-centered she was, I think he realized she wouldn’t be single forever, and knew Edmund had to be in his family’s care to get the education he’d need to be a responsible heir and future “Dook”!
Heyer demonstrates just how poor a mother Ianthe was by her failure to bring Edmund any clothes in all those bandboxes of new outfits.If I remember correctly, Harry made out his will when he got married so there was no actual mother - son relationship at that time. I agree it would be the father's family responsibility to bring up any children and the will made the arrangement formal. It also gave Sylvester the legal right, but I expect he would have taken charge regardless.
Ah wrote: "I think he finds Ianthe shallow and 'not good enough' for Harry - either alive or dead. Her choice of second husband feels to him like an insult to her first, but whatever she does he won't like it..."Oh, that is made MOST painfully obvious when she buys mountains of clothing for herself when she and that flitterbye she married went to France, and not a SINGLE NIGHTSHIRT for her son. Neither of them are fit to have that child, and Sylvester knows it very well. And he DID unbend enough to say that Sir Nugent might come to Chance if he chooses. He's a better person than I.
Ah, I am enjoying this much more this read, indeed! Sylvester's great opinion of his consequence, and certainty that he acts civilly and correctly, is just ridiculous. I love the way he plans to punish Phoebe for refusing him, convinced that she deserves it, all the while angry at her for showing him how unpleasant his behavior is. And I love how Phoebe's grandmother sees everything. And Sylvester's mother as well.
Rebecca's comment from the first threadIt strikes me that I actually think that the marriage of Ianthe and Nugent Fotherby may end up being wildly successful. Not wise, but wildly successful!
I'll bet with Sir Nugent along to complain about Edmund and the lack of high ton society, Ianthe's visits to Chance will be much shorter. Clever Sylvester!
Hana wrote: "I'll bet with Sir Nugent along to complain about Edmund and the lack of high ton society, Ianthe's visits to Chance will be much shorter. Clever Sylvester!"I agree, unless they are part of a house party, Sir Nugent will have no one to impress with his wealth and Ianthe no one to show how much she 'dotes' on her son.
I am still in the beginning of the book where I really, really like Phoebe's Grandmother. I remember from past reads being disappointed she becomes so cranky later. I know it's necessary to the plot for her to refuse to make the channel crossing, but she also seems so angry by then, and it's only resolved when she finds out Sylvester still wants to marry Phoebe. This contrasts with Sylvester's Mother who is kind throughout.
Hana wrote: "I'll bet with Sir Nugent along to complain about Edmund and the lack of high ton society, Ianthe's visits to Chance will be much shorter. Clever Sylvester!"once Sylvester is married I'm hoping they can so much enjoy how ridiculous Sir Nugent is that he isn't so much of an annoyance.
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I have quite a few opinions, but I'll wait for the rest of you to catch up. :)