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Sylvester Group Read May 2019 Spoilers thread
He is most truly the gentleman, while still being a kid.In this book, even the two publishers have distinguishable personalities. Everyone feels like an individual.
Heyer is good with secondaries most of the time, but this book really shines! I almost feel as if I would know any one of them if they walked into a room, and I heard them talking for a very few minutes.
yes, I agree with this and good point about the publishers, Abigail. They are such minor characters and yet fully drawn.
Thomas Orde is a really great guy who supports Phoebe and is completely honest with her - and such a gentleman.
I just love the moment it all began—when she looks at him and says, “I haven’t any conversation.” It reminds me of that moment in Pride and Prejudice (the BBC adaptation with Colin Firth) when Elizabeth overhears Darcy’s disparagement of her and walks past him, head down, the ghost of a smile on her lips. Little did he know, but he was caught. So, too, is Sylvester. Like Darcy, it takes a while and he has to battle his own pride to get there, but he eventually realizes that this seemingly unsuitable girl is the only one for him!
I'm glad to still be listening to the audio version even if it is abridged (and that's an abomination!) because I just found something I don't remember even though I've read this book maybe a dozen times. In describing Sir Nugent when he comes riding with them he is wearing so many rings it looks like he is a jeweler advertising his wares. I can't believe my eyes skimmed over that tidbit every time!
Jackie wrote: "Abigail wrote: "Funny, one of the things I like about this book is that both hero and heroine are so passionate that they don’t always behave well! Their emotions overtake them. So I take his cruel..."I find the ballroom scene to be the pivotal scene for Sylvester; it is the first time he loses control and fails to act with perfect propriety and icy aloofness. It is also the appropriate social trigger that leads into the final set piece. It allows Phoebe to leave London, but not to go home where she will never again cross paths with Sylvester, and allows Heyer to get her naturally to the coast where she rescues Edmund. Yes, it is painful, as it is supposed to be. You need to feel for Phoebe and feel that this relationship is on the brink of doom. It's not all rainbows or unicorns. The story benefits from this darker scene as contrast to the humorous ones.
Cindy wrote: "The answer to the above question is yes, there is something better! And that would be when the Duchess brings the two of them together. That scene, from the time Phoebe enters the Duchess's room, t..."Agreed! I always reread it right away!
Rebecca wrote: "Heyer is good with secondaries most of the time, but this book really shines! I almost feel as if I would know any one of them if they walked into a room, and I heard them talking for a very few mi..."Yes, the completeness of all the secondary characters is critical to the success of the novel.
I adore Thomas and Edmund especially.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "It is puzzling that Harry didn't give joint custody to Sylvester & Ianthe. We are told by Lady Salford that she believes Ianthe was "most sincerely attached" to Harry. It is important to the plot Custody is a modern concept. It was guardianship in 19th century, and it came with control over the ward's property as well as person. Women of the nobility, except in very rare circumstances, legally were not given control over their own propery or lives, let alone that of their children or other family members. It always fell to a male of the family, no matter how dissolute or incompetant that male was. Never would an Ianthe have been included in the arrangement, nor would she truly have believed or expected to be. No matter what she claimed.
It is also a modern concept giving mothers or a mother's family any preference over their childrens lives. Back in the 19th Century amongst the nobility children belonged to the father and the father's family legally, with rare exception.
Heyer did not have to alter or stretch anything to have a 'wicked' male family member to use.
To return briefly to the waltz when Sylvester loses control...isn't his anger as much from the hurt of Phoebe not telling him about using him in her book, as it is in her portrayal of him?
I think it is also that he is angry at himself for being so hurt by her opinion. And by recognizing that he is not perfect, maybe.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "I think it is also that he is angry at himself for being so hurt by her opinion. And by recognizing that he is not perfect, maybe."Oh, yes, indeed.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "I think it is also that he is angry at himself for being so hurt by her opinion. And by recognizing that he is not perfect, maybe."yes, all of that, and he can't believe how dumb he is being - even while he is telling her off right in the middle of the dance floor! could he have picked a worse place? I don't think so. Some part of him knows he is behaving very badly and he is angry and trying to blame her for that, too.
His behavior when he firsts meets her again in Paris is also unforgivable. I enjoyed his discomfort when he hadn't enough money and was treated as an ordinary traveler.
Yes, I just finished that and I love how disconcerted he is to be treated as just "Mr. Rayne" - although he then asserts himself ("coming the Duke", Tom calls it) and gets them a private table.
I've finished. Can't say it's one of my favorites. There were a few characters I really liked. Tom being one of them but I didn't quite take to Phoebe or Sylvester. I thought Phoebe a bit over the top at the end of the book and he was just too high handed for my liking.Glad I read it though as it had been a long time since my last read. Onwards to the first of June!
This is one of my favorites, but next month I'll be in your shoes, Venetia being one of my least favorites! It will be only my third reading, and we'll see if I warm to it.
And I'll be in yours from this month Abigail:) I love Venetia is one of my favorites. It's great isn't it how we all love different ones.
This group is great for opening my mind to other possibilities and interpretations!
I'm definitely with Abigail on that one!
Abigail wrote: "This group is great for opening my mind to other possibilities and interpretations!"although it's great when we agree, it's more interesting when we don't!
Lady Ingham, Phoebe's grandmother, is someone I really like when we first meet her but she becomes really annoying once she gets to the coast, getting so cranky and completely unwilling to travel in anything but absolute calm weather.and then I am so struck by this passage, which explains why Phoebe weeps when met with kindness by Sylvester's Mother:
"Miss Battery was gruff, Mrs. Orde matter-of-fact, and Lady Ingham astringent, and these were the three ladies who had Phoebe's interests most to heart."
kind of makes me tear up, too.
Abigail wrote: "This is one of my favorites, but next month I'll be in your shoes, Venetia being one of my least favorites! It will be only my third reading, and we'll see if I warm to it."And here Venetia is one of my top 2 Heyers! Frederica holds the number one spot for me - always and forever.
Jackie wrote: "and then I am so struck by this passage, which explains why Phoebe weeps when met with kindness by Sylvester's Mother:"Miss Battery was gruff, Mrs. Orde matter-of-fact, and Lady Ingham astringent, and these were the three ladies who had Phoebe's interests most to heart."
kind of makes me tear up, too."
Yes, indeed! The Duchess is, in fact, one of the warmest, most kindly and least caricatured characters in Heyer's writing in general!
I want to introduce language for a moment here. There are great fun of words like 'farouche' and 'betwattled' and even 'gut-foundered' - all of which I'm determined to start using in everyday conversation🤣- what are some of yours?
And aside from those, what do you all think about the entire conversation between Sylvester, Phoebe and Georgie about riding? I'm talking of course about: "Will you let me mount you while you are in town?" and essentially the whole conversation about Sylvester mounting Phoebe, which today has a very salatious even pornographic meaning.
Or have I just read too many romances that are really little more than pornography?
It has me wondering if Heyer used 'mount' tongue in cheek or is the more erotic meaning even more contemporary than I thought? Certainly this has happened to other words - 'pussy' comes to mind.
It's not my intention to offend, but language is a living thing and connotations and acceptable use change. Another example in Sylvester is of course the references to 'half-wit' at the Blue Boar. Was that acceptable use in Heyer's day? Or was she simply channeling what was acceptable in Regency England? And should be offended or think less of Heyer as a writer for conforming to those norms - whichever it is?
For me, I wince but don't let it be a reason to disparage or take umbrage.
Thoughts?
Heyer tends to use language from the time period in which her novels are set - a lot is taken from letters written during regency times. The use of 'mount' to mean 'providing a mount' appears in other books, between characters who have no romantic connection. I am not sure what 'half-wit' means in the book, but I assume it would be for someone who wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. That might be an insult - is it actually an acceptable term for another person? I don't know. Certainly not today.
The term 'natural' is also used, and I am not sure what that means. Throughout history, people who are seen as being different mentally are often ill-used, and while that doesn't happen in this book, it seems that some of the characters are uncomfortable being around that character.
Yes I too cringed at some of the wording. The 'mount' thing especially. But I admire her for using the wording if that was the way of it in Regency times. She really was an authentic author.
honestly, I am so used to hearing "mount" as meaning providing with a horse that it didn't even make me smile (or cringe). Hearing the landlady's son called "a natural" was new to me and I wondered about it.
I love the slang from the "lower" orders the best, such as "gut-foundered", as it's such fun.
I think the language is very much of the time and for me 'mount' does not have a double meaning here. Sylvester would never stoop to such a vulgar thing! As for 'natural' and half-wit, I think we have to accept that part of the reason we love Heyer is that she is authentic to her period. Gut-foundered, is one of my favourites too!
I do like authenticity in language in books set during a specific period. Would Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn have had the same impact, delivered the same message, if his use of a certain word had not been included? I don't think so given that showcasing the racial divide was key to the story. Yet, I know readers who are so offended by it, they think the book should be banned. I'm not in favor of banning for any reason. I can disagree, be offended, wish it had never been written, consider the most poorly written book in history, or elect not to read, but ban? Nope.
Back to Heyer - I particularly love a book like Sylvester which does a really lovely balance between street cant and slang and the more refined language of the upper classes, with modern style of narrative. April Lady I found more difficult at times - the street cant a little too heavy handed for me - and I didn't particularly enjoy it (April Lady not one I will likely want to re-read again - did not really care for it). It's a fine line to walk. Or write!
A 'natural' is a term I've encountered before when reading - but not as often as half-wit. I think 'natural' refers more to someone born with mental/emotional limitations that prevent learning or developing as opposed to diminished due to sustaining an injury or just being a bit slower than those around.
Until this reread, this had been one of my least favorite of the Heyer books. The first time I read it, I was a teenager and the ball scene horrified me. I thought of Sylvester as an adult and I identified with Phoebe. I couldn't believe he humiliated Phoebe that way. The scene was almost the only thing that stuck with me. So over the years, I seldom reread it. Now 40 plus years later, I still did not want to reread it but I did. This time I saw what other people above mentioned about why Sylvester did it. And so it was almost like a new to me Heyer and I loved it!
I love the way rereading a book after many years can change your opinion on it completely. It's happened to me too, unfortunately not this time.
So glad this book was rehabilitated for you, Diane! Hoping I'll have the same experience with Venetia.
I think 'natural' came about because of the Enlightenment/Rousseau (second half of the 1770s) philosophy that society/education is negative, that people are born with 'natural' (innate) goodness which becomes corrupted.Those who do not have the capacity to develop reason and knowledge through education remain 'natural' and uncorrupted.
So yes, it does mean what we would now refer to as intellectually disabled (or whatever term is used where you are - it varies worldwide!), but when it was introduced was meant as a positive. Whether that implication was still current by 1810 or so, I don't know. Just as at one point the terms 'cretin' and 'moron' were considered to be specific medical terms, but rapidly became insults.
Abigail wrote: "So glad this book was rehabilitated for you, Diane! Hoping I'll have the same experience with Venetia."I hope so, too! Venetia is another one of my favorite Heyers. I'm not going to talk about it (although I REALLY want to) but I'll just say that, to me, it is one of the most romantic of Heyer's books in the development and portrayal of the relationship between the two protagonists. Still lots of humor, of course! I look forward to the discussion next month and hope that your reread changes your mind!
Very interesting, Ah! Thanks for the context.
Ah wrote: "I think 'natural' came about because of the Enlightenment/Rousseau (second half of the 1770s) philosophy that society/education is negative, that people are born with 'natural' (innate) goodness wh..."Thank you for that Ah, that is very informative.
By coincidence, Rousseau and his beliefs get discussed along with Mary Shelley and Frankenstein's Monster (published 1818) in this episode of a BBC radio programme this week :)https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00...
Sylvester, or the Wicked Uncle by Georgette HeyerMy rating: 5 of 5 stars
It is really hard to review a book that is in your top 5 favourite books of all times. I am going to add further detail to this review when I have a chance and some more head space to do it justice. I have read this book so many times since I was in my early teens and I never seem to tire of it. The main characters Phoebe and Sylvester are so believable, full of faults and whimsy, yet loveable withal. The secondary characters: Sibby - Phoebe's governess, Sylvester's mother- the Dowager Duchess, Phoebe's Grandmother - Lady Ingham, Thomas Orde - Phoebe's best friend, Keighly -Sylvester's groom, Georgiana - Sylvester's cousin, Thomas' father - the squire, and especially the show stealer little Edmund -Sylvester's young nephew, all hold a precious spot in my heart. Even the would be villains, the incompetent Lady Ianthe Rayne and her cockscomb swain, Sir Nugent Fotherby, make for brilliant and amusing dialogue, with moments of laugh out loud comedy.
On top of all of this, there is a love story between two hopelessly flawed persons who find a balance and security in each other and the friendship that grows between such unlikely comrades. I have yet to read the last couple of chapters without shedding a happy tear over the most romantic lines Heyer ever wrote, in my opinion. The deep emotion is overlaid with humour and so makes it all the more real and sympathetic to my ideals of true and lasting human love.
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Nice tribute, Jemima! And how kind of Heyer to give one the occasion to use the word withal. :-)
a very nice review, JemimaI have yet to read the last couple of chapters without shedding a happy tear over the most romantic lines Heyer ever wrote, in my opinion.
I think you should quote them so we know for sure which ones you mean!
Jemima wrote: "Sylvester, or the Wicked Uncle by Georgette Heyer
My rating: 5 of 5 stars
It is really hard to review a book that is in your top 5 favourite books of all times. I am going to add further detail..."
You have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you, Jemima!
Rebecca wrote: "Heyer is good with secondaries most of the time, but this book really shines! I almost feel as if I would know any one of them if they walked into a room, and I heard them talking for a very few mi..."Yes this! I've read so many books by other authors recently where I have trouble keeping the characters straight!
I was also thinking that if we don't count Pistols For Two Phoebe was the last ingenue heroine that GH wrote. Cressy from (other GH book spoiler)(view spoiler)
This read has helped me realize why my favorite Heyers are my favorite Heyers. Sylvester, A Civil Contract, Frederica all let us into the hero's mind and heart, as much as the heroine's. We see their initial opinions changed as they come to know the other more and see their true character.Sylvester, interestingly, is really what my British co-worker would call a "tosser" at the beginning. He is not rude but he is completely focused on what befits him and what benefits him. The fact that his mother -- one of Heyer's most sympathetic characters -- is bothered by this immediately gives us pause.
His come-uppance at Phoebe's hands is staged and crafted so masterfully. GH sets up a situation in which Phoebe doesn't have to care what he thinks so she is brutally honest (unless her stepmother is around) and neatly takes Sylvester down a peg or two.
The scene at the ball is hard to read because we know exactly how this will affect Phoebe, and it's harder when we realize that Sylvester knows it too but he keeps on going. He does the same thing when they return from France, right before he proposes. I think it is proof of Phoebe's effect on Sylvester that she completely throws him off balance and makes him lose his confidence. One of my favorites lines in all of Heyer's work: "Thus Sylvester, an accomplished flirt, making his first proposal." Phoebe is also able in the second instance to step back mentally and realize that he is trying to blame his confusion on her bad behavior, not his own.
As others have said, travel is always revealing. I think one of my favorite scenes is when Phoebe asks Ianthe for Edmund's clothes. Ianthe has represented herself as cruelly put-upon by Sylvester, and Phoebe has no way of knowing about that for sure, but in this scene Heyer cleverly shows us that Sylvester was right about Ianthe. We also see that Edmund, and Sylvester, are right about Sir Nugent as well. Tom learns from their conversation aboard the schooner that he is indeed a "Bad Man."
I know this is a lot but needed to get it out while it was on my mind.
Elza wrote: "This read has helped me realize why my favorite Heyers are my favorite Heyers. Sylvester, A Civil Contract, Frederica all let us into the hero's mind and heart, as much as the heroine's. With both,..."Eliza, you raise some really insightful points - and remind me why this is a favorite of mine, also, along with Civil Contract (very divisive in our last read, as I recall), and Frederica!
Jackie wrote: "a very nice review, JemimaI have yet to read the last couple of chapters without shedding a happy tear over the most romantic lines Heyer ever wrote, in my opinion.
I think you should quote them..."
Thanks everyone. Yes you are right, I will. I wrote this review in a rush and plan to addd a bit of polish. Unfortunately that means I have to read the last chapter again...lol! Such a hardship!
Elza wrote: "This read has helped me realize why my favorite Heyers are my favorite Heyers. Sylvester, A Civil Contract, Frederica all let us into the hero's mind and heart, as much as the heroine's. With both,..."Some wonderful points raised!
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Thomas Orde is one of my favourite secondary males. Im assuming he is 19 & look at all he copes with!