Beta Reader Group discussion
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Anyone having issues with paid betas/editors?
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I've only had one paid beta who failed to respond or provide feedback on my manuscript. I'm giving them a few more days to respond, but after that will likely make a comment the on here the next time they post they are looking for work. They have been soliciting new clients for months yet have still provided nothing on the one I paid them to read.Now, I've worked with probably close to 40 people from the web (editors, betas, artists, cp etc.) so 1/40 are pretty good odds, but I do feel it's important to have a way to hold people accountable if they fail to meet an agreement. I'd not go all over the boards hounding people if I didn't like what they had to say, but if someone takes your money agreeing to perform a service, then disappears, I think it is the responsible thing to let others know that the individual is untrustworthy.
I genuinely do not feel that these people are scammers, but they have just over-committed themselves or are simply not professional enough to balance their workload. I don't think identifying them needs to be cruel, but it's really the only recourse we have as clients. Writers don't make much money, so wasting it on unresponsive support is extremely damaging.
Of course, it's a risk for writers as a disgruntled person on the web can make your life miserable. Especially one that has a copy of your manuscript.
I feel like I've developed enough of a network now that I can ask for recommendations from other authors. I just don't trust testimonials as I know many authors feel pressured to give one when asked and don't want to rock the boat.
Another option is to use a service like Fiverr or Upwork where they take a cut, but if your reader or editor disappear, you can get your $$ back (as the company holds it in escrow until you sign off on the work). I found a few VERY solid readers from them and the one that ghosted - I got a refund in a few days, including the fees.
Just my experience/thoughts! I'm also happy to give you some recommendations if you are still in the market. There are some stellar folks on here.
I'm an indie author, so I worked almost exclusively with freelancers/small businesses. I worked with six paid readers I found through Goodreads. Five of the six provided feedback on time or early. The one reader who didn't deliver on time let me know ahead of time that she needed a little extra time. She delivered as promised on the slightly modified schedule. (About 36 hours later than originally agreed.) I was happy with all of my readers and feel like they were worth what I paid. (In a couple of cases, frankly, I feel like the reader should have been charging double.)I also made a few writer friends here through swapping manuscripts.
I found my book's editor and proofreader through a different online message forum. I found my cover designer through ALLi's list of recommended designers.
I made some friends with other writers early on to get recommendations, and I looked for paid readers with testimonials on their threads here and/or on their websites. But otherwise, as the board is right now, there's really no way for an author to tell who is good/reliable and who isn't...
Chesspawn,I have also had issues with some paid services here, which is disappointing. My opinion is that if you're providing a service for payment, you should treat it as a business, and thus act professionally, and if you can't meet the deadlines, communicate that fact.
Me personally, I actually started a publishing business and will soon start advertising my services on Goodreads, and couldn't imagine treating other writers the way some of us have been treated.
Jeffrey Thomas
I’ve only hired 4 betas here on goodreads so I can’t say my experience was the norm. So far only 1 beta was disappointing. When she missed her deadline the first time, I told her that it would be ok as long as she informed me beforehand that she needed more time. She missed deadline again and didn’t bother to inform me. When I contacted her, she apologized so I let it pass and told her once again to please inform me if she needed more time. (I’ve used professional editors before. Almost everyone delayed in the delivery of their work, but since they informed me, I always extended the deadline, sometimes for months. So I’m very easy to talk to.)
Then this beta missed deadline for the 3rd time. Once again, she didn’t bother to inform me. That was simply rude and unprofessional. So I just told her to keep the money and moved on.
This kind of beta ruined the opportunities for other great paid betas on goodreads, in my opinion. Honestly, after this experience, other than the two betas who've earned my trust on goodreads, I intend to only hire betas on sites such as Fiverr where I can be sure to get a refund if the betas don't deliver.
Then this beta missed deadline for the 3rd time. Once again, she didn’t bother to inform me. That was simply rude and unprofessional. So I just told her to keep the money and moved on.
This kind of beta ruined the opportunities for other great paid betas on goodreads, in my opinion. Honestly, after this experience, other than the two betas who've earned my trust on goodreads, I intend to only hire betas on sites such as Fiverr where I can be sure to get a refund if the betas don't deliver.
There's another danger to look out for: paid betas who won't finish the story simply because they didn't like it. I understand free betas but with paid, that's no excuse. It's like not accepting to copy edit simply because the story isn't to your liking. Either read to the end or don't.
Kate wrote: "I intend to only hire betas on sites such as Fiverr where I can be sure to get a refund if the betas don't deliver...."It's not a bad idea, frankly. One of the other great advantages to hiring thru Fiverr et al is the rating systems they provide. A vendor might gin up five or ten fake reviews, but many freelancers have hundreds or thousands of reviews, some going back a number of years. You can't beat due diligence in advance.
I've only used Fiverr once (for a cover designer) but was very happy with the entire process.
v/r
Boris
I get a lot of work done via Fiverr, and have gotten burned a couple of times, unfortunately. For example, I got a person overseas to fix a problem I was having with my author website, and found out later that he installed a pirated copy of a paid plugin. I was lucky to discover it, and went ahead and bought the plugin to cover myself legally. For that reason, I recommend people be wary of who you use on Fiverr, and what you use them for. I have used Fiverr successfully for some really great stuff, like my book launch poster, which I used for advertising my launch. I kept a copy, and it's framed, hanging on the wall at my house! If you go to my author page www.jeffreythomas.net, scroll down to the middle of the page. Beautiful work.
Jeffrey wrote: "I get a lot of work done via Fiverr, and have gotten burned a couple of times, unfortunately. For example, I got a person overseas to fix a problem I was having with my author website, and found ou..."Forewarned is forearmed. Thanks for the advice.
I agree about the warriness with Fiverr. For beta reading? No problem. If you need something created? Yeah, do your homework. I've designers who have stolen copywrited images for covers and marketing. I imagine hiring someone to write something for you runs the risk of plagiarism as well. However, I had my map made on Fivert and is was PERFECT. Hard to pirate/steal a map of a fictional world :)
J wrote: "I've only had one paid beta who failed to respond or provide feedback on my manuscript. I'm giving them a few more days to respond, but after that will likely make a comment the on here the next ti..."Hi there, J
I'd love some recommendations, if you're still offering! Thanks!
Question (for mods or anyone else):Is there a rule on this board about not communicating when someone has failed to uphold their end of a bargain in beta reading/edit? I see people putting up testimonials all the time, but I've now seen two instances where someone (one of them me) pointed out a reader who took money from someone and never delivered - those posts were deleted. I'm not sure if this was done by a mod or the person who was called out. Can someone delete another person's post in a thread they started?
I don't want to use this board as a snipe fest or to badger people, but the post I made I only did to warn others after weeks of trying to contact the individual and talking to others who also paid and never got their work back. Not getting quality work back is one thing, taking money and never delivering is another.
There are a lot of really good people on here doing honest, quality work, the few that do not make it very difficult for them. Publicly warning others seems to be the only recourse.
J wrote: "Question (for mods or anyone else):Is there a rule on this board about not communicating when someone has failed to uphold their end of a bargain in beta reading/edit? I see people putting up test..."
Posts get deleted sometimes by mods and GR librarians. It's impossible for a non-mod or librarian to delete a post because of the GR authorization settings so only one of those two Goodreads-Gods can do it. There's a few reasons it might happen.
1. It's possible someone you mentioned is actually a mod or librarian themselves under another name -or- someone they know that the experience might be unusual for (or is at least different from the experience they or the majority of others had with the person you did). It's a tight group and they usually know who is legit and who isn't. So if the mod/librarian/person they know has a solid history and the poster doesn't (ie: no reviews, no lengthy profile, no books, etc) the post can be removed with a simple petition.
2. The person you mentioned was contacted by a mod or librarian and they were able to show proof to the mod or librarian that they responded and/or offered a refund, etc. If the complaint posted is materially false it gets deleted.
3. If they find the complaint suspicious they may also delete it. Usually this is if the person complaining is offering the same service (ie: the person complaining is competing for the same business).
They don't delete for no reason so some or all of the above would have come into play. I'm a mod on two other indie groups and this is how it works.
I have tried to complain to Goodreads about a beta reader, but Goodreads never responds.
Ed wrote: "I have tried to complain to Goodreads about a beta reader, but Goodreads never responds."It's possibly because you only joined 2-3 months ago and have no reviews or books or anything really listed on your account. If you paid for a service and the beta reader is refusing a refund to you then do a chargeback. It's what anyone can do if a service provider is legitimately ghosting you.
Mod
Moderator here... No, I haven't deleted any posts. I thought only myself or the other moderators can do that.
As for the other options Michele mentioned for deleting, I'm not familiar with those. I'm going to check them out though.
As for if someone ghosts, I've been watching the posts and I check here often and I always investigate before deleting a post. I try and contact both parties and get all the information. I have banned people from the group for unethical business practices.
I was hoping that commenting on their thread would lead them to contacting you. I'm sorry this happened to you, J. If you want to chat offline, send me a DM.
If anyone else has issues with a beta reader, please reach out to me or the other moderators. I'm always here to help. Don't ever hesitate to send a message. I do more than enforce the '1 ad per 30 days' rule ;)
Dakota
@Dakota:Thank you for the reply (and other folks who have cleared this up).
I in no way hold Goodreads or this thread responsible for the behavior of the folks on it, I just wanted to make sure that I did not break the rules by bringing it up. I've hired several readers from this board, online folks are always a risk but of the dozens I've worked with, it's only one that ghosted.
I am also a beta reader, so I can see how the post may seem like an issue.
Quick, random update: Apparently the thread and posts in question where just renamed and moved to a different category. The original poster deleted their post, but did not delete mine (just sort of buried it) :).5/28 - After I posted in Goodreads, the reader I posted about contacted me on 5/27 and issued a refund on 5/28.
I want to thank Dakota for helping to get this all sorted and following up regarding my experience.
Let me see if I understand?Since I have only been on Goodreads for 2 - 3 months, and I have no books on my Goodreads account (I have 3 books published on Amazon) then I HAVE NO CREDIBILITY??
Also the options you say I have... Where can I find dteails on them???
Ed wrote: "Let me see if I understand?Since I have only been on Goodreads for 2 - 3 months, and I have no books on my Goodreads account (I have 3 books published on Amazon) then I HAVE NO CREDIBILITY??
Als..."
That's not what I said, Ed. Anyone can open a Goodreads account which can make it difficult for a librarian to sift through the thousands of requests they receive every week. If there's little to no activity on an account it can easily be overlooked in favor of one that has a lot. Have a look at the Goodreads Librarian forum for all your options. It's a great resource!
That does not solve the problem. If a beta reader is ripping off authors and if you are not aware of it, IT WILL CONTINUE, One author refusing to pay a beta reader (individual transaction) does not solve the problem for the rest of the authors on Goodreads that my use that beta reader.
The credibility of Goodreads is the issue...
@ Ed - I can only speak to me own experience, but the Goodreads mod has been extremely helpful and responsive, as well as impartial. I don't have a very robust Goodreads account (I don't write reviews, and I'm not uber social), however they discussed the matter with me and were willing to look at my side of the story before taking any action. My question was more regarding the rules. People can edit and delete their own posts, which appears to be what happened in my case (their OP was deleted, the title changed and the thread moved) - the mods did not delete anything I wrote without contacting me.
I was not reprimanded in any way for bringing the matter to light. It's all been handled very professionally which I think goes above and beyond for board mods. Keeping people from blowing up into nasty fights? Sure. Actually investigating email trails to determine if an accusation has merit? I wouldn't expect that level of involvement but I'm grateful for it. I'm very appreciative of what they've done and don't feel that they look at me as having lack of credibility just because I don't have a huge bookshelf.
Other boards may handle things differently, but I was surprised by how supportive this board was and have absolutely no concerns about continuing to work with folks on here.
Thank you for your comments and information.How do I reach this board directly to discus an issue?
Pardon my frustrations.
Thank you again.
Ed
Dakota Rayne posted up above. They are a mod on this board, but you can contact any of them through the private message feature. Click on their name to get to their profile. The option to message them will either be on their profile page or will show up if you click the 'more' button.
Mod
Thanks for getting back to me.I am not sure where to go from here. I was warned that if you complain about a beta reader you run a risk as they have your MS. Along with your name and email address. '
What to do???
Ed
I mean, that's true, but that is true no matter where you hire them from. You can have them sign contracts or NDAs, but there is always some risk when you hand over your information to someone.
Mod
As with anything, you do run the risk in every and any situation where there is a transfer of information. It's just the nature of the game. The suggestions I gave are to minimize risk. As J mentioned too, there is a contract or NDA that they can sign which will aid you should something happen.
That being said though, there are a number of reputable editors and readers on GR. If anyone complains, I do my best to figure out what happened so that everything gets settled as amicably as possible, but I won't tolerate unethical or disrespectful behavior on the board - whether it is through posts or behind the scenes.
-Dakota
Hi, I need beta readers, please? Usually for short works, but I thought I had seen someone post recommendations earlier? Please can someone inbox me those details? I cannot seem to find them, just now? Thank you :)
So I think everyone has had issues with cps and betas not following through or vanishing... It happens. Life isn't always accommodating for writers and I totally get that. As much as it's irritating when betas disappear without a trace it does make sense.
What really irks me is when this happens with paid readers and editors.
I've had several betas from here that have been really lousy about giving me back my critiques or edits that I've paid for--skipped deadlines and not told me--made me send multiple emails asking what became of my manuscript.
As I see it I've been willing to talk and have always willingly extended my deadline, sometimes several times. But I'm getting pretty sick of it. At the very least I just ask for communication.
Don't get me wrong, I've worked with fantastic readers here. And I don't just want to vent. If any paid editors are here, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I just want to open up the chance to talk. I know many of you aren't full time editors so I want to be understanding. How is it from your point of view?
Other writers, what experiences have you had?
Cheers!
A.