"Remnant Population" Full Discussion *Spoilers*

[Ariana]

This is the full spoiler thread for the Remnant Population BOTM discussion for December 2019. No spoiler tags necessary.

Comments 1-32 were for a previous buddy read and so may contain spoiler tags.

[Ariana]

I am excited for this! My February is heavily front loaded, though, so this one might get shifted til a bit later in the month for me.
Who else is in?

[Anna]

I don't think I can resist a reread! <3

[Cheryl]

I'm so excited for a reread of this. Any time is fine, I think... I better go grab the download from my library asap though to be sure....

[Cheryl]

Oh, and I will say that I remember it as a fairly quick read, so y'all that are feeling overwhelmed in general: do not feel intimidated in particular... ;)

[Shomeret]

Cheryl wrote: "Oh, and I will say that I remember it as a fairly quick read, so y'all that are feeling overwhelmed in general: do not feel intimidated in particular... ;)"

This is the first time I'm reading Remnant Population and I've read half of it today. So it is a quick read. I might finish it tonight.

I asked a friend who reads science fiction if he read it and he wasn't sure. When I described the plot, he said it sounded like Falling Free by Bujold which I haven't read. When I looked at the summary, it didn't seem similar. Are there similarities?

[CBRetriever]

not sure what constitutes a spoiler so

(view spoiler)[I put off reading this for the longest time as I thought a book where the main protagonist was an old woman would be totally boring, but ended up loving it (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

Shomeret, I think you want to ask your friend what he means. I need to reread RP, and I've not read FF, so I'm not sure, but I don't see a kinship....

[Ariana]

I started this last night during a bout of insomnia and I am really liking it!
(view spoiler)[I love how free Ofelia feels once she's on her own, and the different personas she has: one for her son, one for the community, and this new emerging one that's just for her. (hide spoiler)] (mild spoilers through Ch. 4)

[Shomeret]

My favorite thing about this book is that at the age of eighty Ofelia learns, grows and changes. Talk about life long learning!

[Oleksandr]

I started this book recently, an unusual read, at least for me, I've never read Elizabeth Moon before, and unsure whether this is an author's style or this book's content that makes me feel strange about it. It is great to see such vigorous octogenarian, for the ones I've met through my life were way physically weaker and more fragile...

[CBRetriever]

Oleksandr wrote: "I started this book recently, an unusual read, at least for me, I've never read Elizabeth Moon before, and unsure whether this is an author's style or this book's content that makes ..."

The Paksenarrion series that begins with this book Sheepfarmer's Daughter is quite good

[Anna]

I read Paksenarrion last year and it was part boring/predictable, and part horrendous. No spoilers but it was sold to me as a book with asexual representation, and while it's technically true, the amount of sexual violence and the way it's dealt with was really hard to read through. I love Moon's scifi though!

[Shomeret]

Anna wrote: "I read Paksenarrion last year and it was part boring/predictable, and part horrendous. No spoilers but it was sold to me as a book with asexual representation, and while it's technically true, the ..."

I read two books by Moon before this one--one science fiction and one fantasy. The fantasy was Surrender None and the science fiction was The Speed of Dark. I actually loved both of them, but I read books based on summaries. I didn't see any other books by Moon with summaries that attracted my attention. Remnant Population's summary didn't either, but I finally started to see comments about it that did attract my attention. I'm glad I finally read it. I did like it very much.

[Anna]

I also really enjoyed The Speed of Dark! It's a very quiet/slow book, but I couldn't put it down.

[Rachel]

Wish I had time to squeeze in a re-read of this!

[Jen]

I enjoyed The Speed of Dark and I'm looking forward to reading Remnant Population, I think I'll start it this weekend.

[Cheryl]

I actually enjoyed Moon's 'Vatta's War' series a lot... and it is absolutely not something I'd've picked up if it weren't by her. It's very different from this. The thing is, Moon is a bright, and tough, and creative old woman, who was a bright and tough and creative young Marine.... she writes intelligently, authentically, and with affection for her characters.

I also liked The Speed of Dark but DNF'd Heris Serrano.

I'm about 1/3 through this 2nd read of RP. Only avl as ebook to me which means I can't read it in bed comfortably which slows me down a lot.

[Bonnie]

Shomeret wrote:
I asked a friend who reads science fiction if he read it and he wasn't sure. When I described the plot, he said it sounded like Falling Free by Bujold which I haven't read. When I looked at the summary, it didn't seem similar. Are there similarities?

It's been a while, but I don't think so. Isn't FF about kids who are bred to work in gravity-free environment, so that it is virtually impossible for them to leave space and go down to a planet.... moral implications?

[Bonnie]

I liked this (and loved The Speed of Dark).
Enjoyed these aspects:
(view spoiler)[
* Evil corporation
* Failed colony
* First Contact
* Smart interesting aliens
* Linguistics
* Getting revenge on your idiot relatives
(hide spoiler)]
Yeah!

[Cheryl]

I finished, and I love all those things too. And I love the nuances. I mean, it's hardly a spoiler to say that SimsBancorp is an evil corporation... or at least a typical one that doesn't care much about ethics... but that's the nuance: are they "evil" really?

Moon is good at asking the next question, taking the ideas one step further. It's still a fun read, but it's more literary than many because it's so thoughtful.

[Ariana]

I really liked this! It wasn't until I actually was reading it that I realized just how rare it is to have any characters in SF, let alone the protagonist, be an older woman.

I liked the bits (view spoiler)[with the baby indigenes. The ending felt a teeny bit too convenient, that the leader of the expedition who was so obnoxious happened to lose it and then was killed off. What if he had just been terrible and obstructionist but done nothing drastic enough to get himself killed? Then it doesn't feel like there's such a neat resolution in sight. But whatever, it was still cute and fun. (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

Yes, if it had a different ending, it'd be a different book. I'm not saying that to be snotty or anything, but just saying that this is the story that got told.

(view spoiler)[In this created universe, the Companies & colony workforces are going to encounter indigenes on other planets, and the stories of those encounters are going to be darker. This was the luckier one (except for that one batch of humans in the middle of course). (hide spoiler)]

[Jen]

I really enjoyed this book. Ofelia's character offered such a rare perspective.

In the beginning (view spoiler)[when she is left by herself, enjoying the natural rhythms of her peaceful days, reflecting on her long life, I was really moved. How lucky to be on a planet all by oneself! I really got a kick out of her additions to the official log, telling the human side of the story. (hide spoiler)]

Later, (view spoiler)[I saw the immense sense of an older woman who has borne and raised children to be the contact point for First Contact. It made so much sense in this context, with wicked smart aliens who wanted to learn from her. (hide spoiler)]

The ending (view spoiler)[pacing seemed abrupt compared to the slower, more tranquil beginning, but I think that appropriately fits the rhythm of the story being told. How wonderful Ofelia was chosen as nest guardian for the babies, and as the story progresses we the readers slowly learn how much that means. (hide spoiler)]

I plan to read only books like this for awhile. This was perfect.

[Cheryl]

I agree; I want more like this. Becky Chambers' are akin in the sense that they focus on the good people, the intelligent ordinary likable peoples, and that they give a reader hope, optimism, comfort. What else can we read like this?

[Jen]

I have a bunch of Ursula Le Guin and Sheri Tepper waiting in the wings. I'm going to start there.

[Oleksandr]

Cheryl wrote: "This was the luckier one (except for that one batch of humans in the middle of course). "

And the nest :)
Even after reading, one seems to forget ;)

While I'm happy the way all worked out, it was winning the lottery luck, not something you can reliably count on. (view spoiler)[more intelligent than humans aliens, predators, who curse with words like nut-eater and with strong hierarchy - they can be a tough opponent if they decide to do so. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Cheryl, I feel like your msg #23 is a tiny bit spoilery, would you mind putting it in tags? Thanks!

I swear I saw someone do a list of optimistic scifi / hopepunk recently, but I can't remember who/where. I'm always interested when I see something marketed that way.

edit: But at least we have a few lists on GR: https://www.goodreads.com/genres/hope...

[Cheryl]

Thanks!

And thank you Oleksandr. Shame on me.

[Anna]

I finished my reread. At first I thought I wasn't feeling it as much as on the first read, but I ended up with tears in my eyes, so I guess it's safe to say I still loved it. It was interesting to read the beginning of the book with knowledge of what happens in the end. Weirdly (view spoiler)[ I felt very tense about the middle part where Ofelia is starting to notice the people in the village, but before she knows for sure. I should've breezed through confidently, knowing they'd become friends, but I was on the edge of my seat! :D (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

I added this book to the Hopepunk listopia list that Anna linked above. If you agree with me that this should be more widely read, please go vote for it! :)

Sorry if it's not direct; here's the link to the votable list: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1...

[Rosie]

This sounds extremely interesting, especially having an older female protagonist. I'll be getting my hands on this when possible.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

This is the full spoiler thread for the Remnant Population BOTM discussion! Put on your all-seeing cloak and go nuts! (Ariana, could I impose upon you to please update the first post? Thank you kindly!)

Some questions to get us started:

-Did you see the real plot coming?
-What did you think of the different motivations of the groups?
-Did you resonate with Ofelia?
-What did you think of the end?

[Anna]

I also want to ask everyone a question about the book:

Uhoo *taps RemPop with beak* Kud? Nnot kud?

[Bookish]

I loved the first 20% of the book, when we’re introduced to the place Ofelia occupies in that misogynistic and claustrophobic society, and the determination she makes for herself that she wants to stay behind and has to if she’s going to have a life of her own.

We get to listen to the ‘public voice’ and ‘new inner voice’ debate which is sad for so many reasons (that its introduced as being new to her, and that she’s found her inner voice only at her age), yet showed me how much she grew just from the few months of not being dictated to and pestered.

I’m only halfway through so I can’t speak to the rest of the questions but I felt for Ofelia. I did feel very uncomfortable at her infantilisation of the ‘aliens’, and her repeated naming of them as ‘aliens’ when she’s the alien in that situation, and the fact that she repeatedly refers to them as animals. It was all so classically stereotypical that it didn’t quite gel with who the author seemed to set out Ofelia to be ... I started to lose my enthusiasm about a quarter of the way through. And oh my gosh, the way the aliens were written, their conversation etc, it just felt so lazy. Where’s the interiority? Or the complexity?

[CBRetriever]

give it time, Ofelia changes

[Cheryl]

Anna wrote: "I also want to ask everyone a question about the book:

Uhoo *taps RemPop with beak* Kud? Nnot kud?"

I've read it twice and I still can't translate. I don't have time to read it again this month. :(

[Cheryl]

Yes, give it time, the beginning of the book is not indicative of the whole.

[Anna]

Just trying to ask if Uhoo (you) think the book is good or not good :) Obviously there is only one correct answer!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Aaks ee hhhhopee!

[Oleksandr]

Bookish wrote: "I did feel very uncomfortable at her infantilisation of the ‘aliens’, and her repeated naming of them as ‘aliens’ when she’s the alien in that situation, and the fact that she repeatedly refers to them as animals. "

I'd say it is a great insight in her head that shows her cultural background - she was a down to earth woman, not some well-educated intellectual.

[Anna]

Allison wrote: "Aaks ee hhhhopee!"

Eeeyess!

I could also have asked if people are feeling hah-ahttt or kuh about the book.

[Bookish]

@CB & Cheryl: I plan on finishing it and seeing where this goes so I hope I see more depth.

I sense a lot of love for the book so I’m throwing a couple of questions out there. What did you appreciate about Ofelia? And what did you think of the way Moon went about depicting or introducing the indigenous lifeforms to us?

[Bookish]

Oleksandr wrote: "I'd say it is a great insight in her head that shows her cultural background - she was a down to earth woman, not some well-educated intellectual."

Yikes I hate to believe that she has to be a ‘well-educated intellectual’ to act in a different way, or rather that in acting as she’s done (which just doesn’t jive with some of her backstory) she’s displaying a ‘down to earth’ quality or to flip your quote a poorly-educated person with a poorly-developed intellect. Sure she’s a labourer but she’s also so much more, at least that’s what I got out of the first quarter of the book. Her gardening and her art was a great window into her outlook, and I feel comfortable saying intellect as well.

Ofelia herself tells us that she’s intelligent, more so than her parents or husband or children or one of her teachers gave her credit for. She knows she’s smart, she’s told us in so many words that she feels conflicted about the societal norms in the novel. As I’m reading (60% of the way through now) my singular thought is that Ofelia deserves a little more than this weird back-pedalling that the author seems to be doing with her character.

[Bookish]

Anna wrote: "Allison wrote: "Aaks ee hhhhopee!"

Eeeyess!

I could also have asked if people are feeling hah-ahttt or kuh about the book."

I went from hah-ahtttt to kuhhhhhhhh brrrrrr

:)

[Cheryl]

Oh the questions! I have such affection for Ofelia and for the book I didn't read it carefully / analytically. I just breathed it... and now I'm being expected to evaluate the component parts of the atmosphere... I guess I should read it again. :)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I liked that Ofelia saw the aliens in the context she knew. Threat to bodily safety? No. Going to try to make me some sort of slave? No. Okay, so then the context of relationships I have that is most similar to this is child to parent.

She wasn't studying the aliens, she didn't give a crap about them because she was done giving a crap about people in general, but she had maternal instincts. I loved that first she saw them as someone else's kids that had descended on her, then something more like her own kids, and when she realized how smart they were, they saw themselves as sort of her nestlings.

I did not feel that she was doing this stupidly. She had stuff to do to survive, so it's not like she could stop cooking and farming. She didn't think people were going to come back where she was, and she actively did not want them to, so any sort of attempt at getting more information, contacting experts, or doing a rigorous attempt at learning their language etc. wasn't warranted or helpful. She just needed to communicate with them and make sure the peace remained, and she did that better than anyone else did.

Long winded, sorry. But that's what I liked :D

[Oleksandr]

Bookish wrote: "Yikes I hate to believe that she has to be a ‘well-educated intellectual’ to act in a different way,."

I'd say it is more a cultural background than a capacity to reason. It is a tenuous analogue but not long ago I compared anti-slavery abolitionists in the US and people who cared about improving lives of serfs in the Russian empire (in both cases the emancipation happens in 1860s). In the latter case even among intellectuals freeing serfs assumed just too radical. That's a culture imprint I guess

[Bookish]

Allison wrote: "I liked that Ofelia saw the aliens in the context she knew. Threat to bodily safety? No. Going to try to make me some sort of slave? No. Okay, so then the context of relationships I have that is mo..."

Not long winded at all! Its meant to be a discussion after all :)

I get why you see her perspective as maternal above the other factors you mentioned eg. Bodily safety (and maybe above all else?), but I’m not convinced. I remember reading quite a few pages where she was afraid for her life and contemplating her mortality after listening to the transmissions and seeing those faded handprints etc.

When I read this, I see her reaction as pretty colonialist which is ironic given her formal status, and the relationship she has to that corporation but not unusual. Waiting for the arrival of the corporation and anticipating Ofelia’s reaction has revived my interest in seeing this through as well :)

[Bookish]

Oleksandr wrote: "Bookish wrote: "Yikes I hate to believe that she has to be a ‘well-educated intellectual’ to act in a different way,."

I'd say it is more a cultural background than a capacity to reason. It is a t..."

That’s interesting! I hope you don’t mind if I ask you a few questions about your study. What was the availability of people like Frederick Douglass in the Russian emancipation movement telling their stories, writing, lecturing etc? Was the movement led entirely from the side of the liberators? Who were the liberators?