A Song of Ice and Fire

[Book Nerd]

I just read Fire & Blood and now I'm rereading A Game of Thrones so I just wanted to talk about ASOIAF.

I've had a theory about weirwoods for a whilte now that I've never heard anybody else mention. (view spoiler)[ I think the trees actually are Children. In GOT the first reference to weirwoods say: "It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea.
In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch."

So no human saw these faces carved. Maybe they're not carved at all.
Also in a thousand years nobody has planted a weirwood. So they probably don't just grow from seeds like normal plants.

There's also the Isle of Faces, which is full of weirwoods. Legend says the Children used magic on the Isle to break the land bridge to Essos. It says they may have sacrificed a thousand humans or a thousand of their own kind.
Maybe the "sacrifice" involved turning a thousand of their people into weirwoods.

What do you think?
(hide spoiler)]

[John]

I may be alone on the planet, but have yet to take a crack at Game of Thrones. The size of it has always kept me away. I can do Tolkien at that size, but almost no others.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

John wrote: "I may be alone on the planet, but have yet to take a crack at Game of Thrones. The size of it has always kept me away. I can do Tolkien at that size, but almost no others."

It's really good, at least the first three books are. Books 4 and 5 are not quite as good as the first three but still well worth reading. Book 6...? Still waiting....

[Clare]

My husband has read them and recommends the early books anyway. I have not as I'm in college and haven't time for half the reading I was doing.

[Book Nerd]

To me A Feast For Crows was the one that kind of dragged, mostly because he did this weird thing of splitting the story in half and none of my favorite characters were in it.
But I know the coming books will be great and reveal a lot.

[Jim]

My wife & I eagerly read the first few & loved them. The last 2 disappointed us since the world expanded too much. As others have mentioned, favorite characters weren't on stage for an entire book. When I finished book 5, I didn't feel as if the story had advanced much, certainly not enough for all the words.

Then book 6 kept getting put on hold & folks asked Martin if he'd made any contingency for finishing the series in case he died. (Jordan's demise & his plans for having Sanderson finish his series were on everyone's minds.) Since Martin is a fat old man, it seemed a reasonable question to me, but Martin took it as an affront & literally flipped his readers off in an interview when asked. Rude.

I've been reading his books since the early 80s, at least. His reaction blew me away. I won't be buying the 6th book, if it is ever published, new. I'm sure that won't upset him with all the money he's making off his TV series, but I am not happy with him. Selling out is fine, but doing it with so little class is just a shame.

[Andrea]

Jim wrote: "if he'd made any contingency for finishing the series in case he died"

It's admittedly an awkward question, no one likes to be reminded one is reaching the end, and I could see how it's an insulting question (hey old man, since you're so ancient about to pop off...) but one could respond better. After all the only reason that person was asking is because he actually cares about the world you created and wants to know how it ends. If the books sucked, he'd have no fans, and no one would care what he did with it. So in it's way it was flattery not an insult to be asked that question.

I have sympathy for writers like Rothfuss who has some medical issues and can't write. But Martin is still churning stuff out, just not the one that most people seem to care about :) And that's where the insult to fans lies in my mind. I invest in the first book of a series with the expectation I'll get an ending. If I knew in advance the series wouldn't end, I wouldn't even start. So he got rich off of people paying him in good faith to get more than half a story. I disagree with people that say I paid for just the book I got and shouldn't expect more.

Makes me think of Stephen King that had a near death experience in a car accident that motivated him to finish the Dark Tower series. One shouldn't need to nearly die to remember that one will eventually die though. You can't just stick your head in a hole and hope that DEATH won't find you (after all, he did find his own creator)

Personally, I think he has no idea where the story is going, and it's gotten so tangled with so many characters, he's kind of afraid to touch it. But that problem won't go away ignoring it, just sit down, kill off a few characters to trim the complexity (and don't keep bringing the back!) and figure out where this will end (apparently he doesn't do outlines and I think that caught him here)

However it is his fault that I now shy away from new series, waiting till they are finished before starting them. And that's unfair for other authors because if no one buys their first book, the publishers won't pay them for a second.

[Book Nerd]

Andrea wrote: " I could see how it's an insulting question (hey old man, since you're so ancient about to pop off...)"
Exactly. I can see how getting dozens of messages like that could piss a guy off.

[John]

Andrea wrote: "Personally, I think he has no idea where the story is going, and it's gotten so tangled with so many characters, he's kind of afraid to touch it. But that problem won't go away ignoring it, just sit down, kill off a few characters to trim the complexity (and don't keep bringing the back!) and figure out where this will end (apparently he doesn't do outlines and I think that caught him here)

Sounds reasonable, and a good problem to have. Wonder if his editors have sway in this. Maybe he's too important to risk pissing off.

J.R.R. Martin has said there are two types of writers: architects and gardeners. Architects do meticulous outlines, and gardeners plant seeds and let things grow. I have to think parts of both is probably the way to go, particularly with a series.

Andrea wrote:
However it is his fault that I now shy away from new series, waiting till they are finished before starting them. And that's unfair for other authors because if no one buys their first book, the publishers won't pay them for a second."

Not sure that latter half is always the case. Kensington Books wanted a commitment for a 3-book series as a condition of accepting the first in my Mars Wars series ... without sales as a factor.

I even asked about a wait-and-see approach, thinking why would I want to write out the series if the first didn't sell. Their position was readers often arrive at a series at Book II or III, and then seek out the others.

[Andrea]

John wrote: "Not sure that latter half is always the case. Kensington Books wanted a commitment for a 3-book series as a condition of accepting the first in my Mars Wars series ... without sales as a factor."

So I don't have to feel bad about not supporting new series until they are at least partially established? Good to know :) I mean it's not a hard rule for me (after all a group read may drag me in) and some series like Chronicles of Elantra or The Dresden File, don't really have an ending in sight by their nature...more like Star Trek episodes. Yes, eventually I hope when they decide to stop working on the series they will write some kind of wrap up, like ST: Voyager, the ship could spend as much time bouncing around aimlessly as it liked, but give me one episode at the end to tell me if they got home or not. Those I don't mind reading as they come, when they come, though I got into the habit for both to read one a year and it messed with my reading plans when I didn't have one to fill that same slot the next year :) So I usually try to be 2-3 books behind the most recent ones.

They also tend to really complete mini story arcs so each book is self-contained, and the main story arc is usually vague and kind of a background thing that merely ties the mini arcs together. And so you don't care so much if you ever get the main arc resolved or not.

That's unlike an epic fantasy where it's really one long single story and the main arc is the important one. Even LotR was intended to be a single book. ASoIaF is also a "single book" just unwieldy large to actually be published that way, although maybe as an e-book since it wouldn't weigh to much to hold :)

[John]

Andrea wrote: "So I don't have to feel bad about not supporting new series until they are at least partially established?"

From a reader standpoint I can see where there's reluctance to invest emotional attachment to a series that might leave you hanging. My personal reading habit is to take them as they come and reap the entertainment, regardless. If there is no end to the series in sight, it will remain one of life's few true mysteries.

There's also a chance another writer will finish it, with the publisher's help. Not optimal, but worth exploring.

There is a lead time involved with a new series. Established with the publisher is different than established with the public. The publisher will have the next installment(s) some period of time prior to the readers, in my case an entire year.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

John wrote: "...J.R.R. Martin..."

I'm not sure if this was intentional or not but I enjoyed it all the same.

[John]

RJ wrote: "John wrote: "...J.R.R. Martin..."

I'm not sure if this was intentional or not but I enjoyed it all the same."

I realized later but was too lazy to change. Google let me get away with it, for some reason.

[Jim]

It was an apt & amusing slip. Thanks!

[John]

Life's about the little things, lol

[Book Nerd]

I'm really wondering if Melisandre and R'hllor are the good guys here. They're set up as evil but the whole thing is about a battle between light and dark literally if not spiritually.

[Book Nerd]

Something I noticed: I think the Starks represent the seven.
Ned and Catelyn are the Father and Mother, not just because they're actually the father and mother but because they have those qualities. Ned is all about honor and justice and Catelyn is all about the family.
Rob is the Warrior, Sansa is the Maiden, Arya is the Stranger learning to kill, and Bran is the Crone learning the ancient wisdom.
The leaves the Smith for Rickon though we don't know much about his personality yet I'm betting he becomes some great architect or something.

[Book Nerd]

Also I was wondering how they measure years in this world.
The easiest way to measure years is by the seasons but the seasons are all screwed up there.
A more advanced method is to use the solstices but the solstices are controlled by the tilt of the planet along with the seasons so I assume they're just as random.
They could be just counting days but it's been thousands of years so I doubt anybody really remembers how many days a year is at this point.

[Andrea]

Book Nerd wrote: "Something I noticed: I think the Starks represent the seven.
Ned and Catelyn are the Father and Mother, not just because they're actually the father and mother but because they have those qualities..."

That's an interesting idea, I doubt the 7 family members is random chance, though it leaves out Jon.

And your comment on seasons is actually something that's been bouncing around my head lately. Earth has the seasons it has, as you said, because of it's tilt. But look at the various other planets in our system, each one is different. What is the chance that all these fantasy/SF worlds all have similar seasons to the one we're used to (other than the fact that both authors/readers have certain expectations of it).
Just looked it up tilt ranges in our solar system - Mercury has 0.03 and Uranus has 82 and Earth of course 23. Mercury also has only about 1.5 days in a year! I guess Uranus would have forever winter on the equators with the poles getting the most heat?

At least in Martin's world the seasons appear to be controlled more by magic than by nature so he can make up whatever rules he wants :) Though good question, how do you calculate a year, especially if you are in a society that probably assumes the sun revolves around you?

[Book Nerd]

Jon is an outside of the main family though a lot of them care about him. But he's enough a Stark to get a wolf.

I thought the planet rotating along two axies could account for the seasons but people have said there doesn't seem to be any way to explain it.
And I doubt they believe the sun revolves around the planet. Probably average people don't think about it but the Maesters and other educated people probably know the truth. They seem to have been at a medieval level for thousands of years, probably because they have to survive the long winters, but they're more advanced in some ways and even in the middle ages educated people knew that.

[Megan (The Gemini)]

Im just starting this book! Im excited to read it!!!

[Book Nerd]

Cool, enjoy. I'll try to keep it spoiler free.

[Book Nerd]

Ygritte is just as annoying the second time around.

[[deleted user]]

Spoiler!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that the night king is defeated Bran can just sit back under a tree and have a glass of wine while Daenyres and cerise fight for the throne.