"Black Leopard, Red Wolf" by Marlon James (BR)

[Kaa]

BR starts Feb 5, which is also the publication date! Please use spoiler tags and indicate which chapters you're discussing.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ugh, I am 15th in line for this book. We'll see if I can wait that long or if I break down and buy it.

[Kaa]

I am 3rd, but my library hasn't said yet how many copies they're getting so I have my fingers crossed.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I’m first!!

Now if I can just find the motivation to read it. 😒

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Does my curiosity and jealousy mean nothing, Sarah?! I thought we were friends!

[Bobby]

Allison wrote: "Ugh, I am 15th in line for this book. We'll see if I can wait that long or if I break down and buy it."

I feel your pain, I'm 18th. When we first talked about it, it wasn't available to hold at my library yet. Then a couple weeks ago I panicked when I realized I hadn't looked again. Sure enough, I was late to the party at my library. I did suggest it as an e-book in two different library systems I can access, so hopefully that works out.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Haha! I’ll be here. I’ll try not to spoil anything.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Bobby, we can be in misery together, until one or both of us break down and buy the thing!

Yes, Sarah, make sure you do lots of spoiler tags of things so that the FOMO makes whatever outrageous ebook price seem like the height of reasonableness.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Allison wrote: "Bobby, we can be in misery together, until one or both of us break down and buy the thing!

Yes, Sarah, make sure you do lots of spoiler tags of things so that the FOMO makes whatever outrageous eb..."

Ugh FOMO. The death of my wallet.

You never know- your library might purchase 20 copies if they see how long the waitlist is before release. My library system has 21 holds on 9 copies and I’m guessing there are still a few out there to be added. I really hope I don’t end up starting alone!!

[Travis]

Unless anyone needs anymore coaxing:

There are allusions in “Black Leopard, Red Wolf” not just to countless Marvel series and characters (like the Black Panther, Deadpool and Wolverine), but also to myriad literary works including Octavia E. Butler’s sci-fi classic “Wild Seed,” Angela Carter’s “The Bloody Chamber,” Salman Rushdie’s “The Satanic Verses,” Tolkien’s Middle-earth novels, Ursula K. Le Guin’s Earthsea books, Jung’s writings on archetypes and the collective unconscious and African epics about trickster and shape-shifting characters who symbolize chaos and change.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/bo...

[Travis]

I'm 3rd in line, and my library system is purchasing 28 copies... So hopefully they'll process quickly!

[Kaa]

Hooray! Just found out my library is buying 16 ebook copies, so I'll have this on the first day. (The ebook waitlist is currently at 95 and the physical waitlist is at 87. Glad I got on the list early!)

[Topher]

Would suck if you didn’t seeing you made the post lol

[Bobby]

I'm confused by my library system. It says I'm number 18 in line for 10 copies. Then under that it says 16 copies currently on order. I'm hoping that means 16 additional copies, but it could mean 6 additional copies to make the total 16. Either way, hopefully I won't have to wait too long.

[Alondra]

I just ordered this yesterday!! WOOT-WOOT!!

[Trike]

Travis wrote: "Unless anyone needs anymore coaxing:

There are allusions in “Black Leopard, Red Wolf” not just to countless Marvel series and characters (like the Black Panther, Deadpool and Wolverine), but also..."

Marlon James was just on Late Night with Seth Meyers and they talked about how he was late for his own book signing because he was waiting in line to have Mike Mignola sign his Hellboy comics.

Once they put the interview up on YouTube I’ll add a link. Dude was hilarious.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

My copy came in!! I will be picking it up after work. I will likely start tonight, but I’ll be juggling this with a few other reads and taking it slow. Hoping a few of you can join soon?

[Bobby]

I woke up to a nice surprise this morning. One of my library systems got this as an e-book, and it was automatically checked out for me since I had suggested it to be purchased. That means that hopefully I'll be able to start today. I've got lots of irons in the fire, but I'm excited about this one, so it will probably be top priority.

Sorry Allison, I probably just ratcheted up your FOMO even more.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I should be in the next wave of lending, so 2ish weeks for me, unless all the borrowers are kind and finish their books ASAP and return them immediately.

[Travis]

My copy seems to be "in transit" so I'm really, really hoping to be able to pick it up tomorrow.

[Anna]

Holy crap the kindle book is expensive! No way I'm going to buy it, unless I use an Audible credit. I was waiting to hear about how well it stands on its own. I don't want to start a series if I have to wait years to have any sort of conclusion.

[Bobby]

I don't think this even counts as a spoiler as it's something in the book before the story starts, but I'll put it in tags just in case.

(view spoiler)[Uh oh, there's a character list that puts Steven Erikson to shame. That means I probably have to concentrate while reading this, so no multi tasking for me. I read it all, but I think I'm just going to have to go back and reference it later when I get confused. I mean it's got characters like "The Merchant" and "His Wife." They don't even have names and they still made this list? (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

I am starting today!

[Joon]

Anna wrote: "Holy crap the kindle book is expensive! No way I'm going to buy it, unless I use an Audible credit. I was waiting to hear about how well it stands on its own. I don't want to start a series if I ha..."

In the Seth Meyers interview, James described the trilogy as one story told by three different characters, and it sounds like it's one narrator per book.

Which gives each book a sort of stand-alone feel. The added hook is that apparently there will be a great deal of unreliability in the narrators. And finally, there will be no clear "truth"; it's going to go all Life of Pi on us and make us decide what really happened.

I was going to wait a while to start this, but I'm kind of intrigued now. I may start it after I finish Big Ship (next few days, hopefully).

EDIT: Read up a bit more and apparently it was inspired by Showtime's The Affair, which I've also not seen, but which is apparently told from multiple contradictory viewpoints.

But all I can think is don't any of these people know that Rashomon exists?

[Anna]

Joon, that sounds good! I think that means I'm OK reading it soonish. I haven't even read the blurb, I didn't want to know anything about it. African GoT is quite enough to go on!

Haha, looks like the Finnish readers aren't as excited about this, there are only eight holds in all of the Helsinki metropolitan area :D Looks like I'll be able to get it from the library in a decent time.

[Joon]

Take the "African GoT" thing with a huge grain of salt, apparently it was meant as a joke lol.

[Anna]

lol, I'm not expecting it to be GoT, it's just a perfect example of marketing something as the next this-and-that. I don't want another GoT, the one we already have is enough for me.

[Kaa]

The city where I currently live is the kind where everything shuts down for an inch of snow, so I've been able to spend my morning enjoying this book. I just finished Part 1 (~16%).

Thoughts so far: This is definitely a book that takes a lot of focus to follow. There's a lot going on and a lot of moving pieces. (view spoiler)[I think the hardest part for me is trying to keep track of the chronology, which keeps jumping around. I am really enjoying how much this feels like a story being told out loud, though. I feel like it's common to read books where the framing is the narrator telling the story to someone else, but it's rare for the narration to actually feel like oral storytelling. (hide spoiler)]

@Bobby: (view spoiler)[So far a lot of characters have been introduced, but I haven't found the character list all that helpful. There are some pretty major characters who are referred to by a label rather than a name, so the lack of a name doesn't seem to always indicate insignificance in the story. (hide spoiler)]

A few content notes for the first section (no spoilers, just general topics): (view spoiler)[discussion of pedophilia, abuse/murder of children, discussion of domestic violence, discussion of FGM (hide spoiler)]

[Bobby]

I just finished chapter two. Kaa, you are right about it taking focus.

(view spoiler)[ It seems like we are just getting background right now before we get to the real story. All we really know is that a boy died and a queen is angry enough to kill the messenger. Now Tracker is talking to an inquisitor and telling him about his life I guess? I'm a bit confused. That's fine because I always like world building, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around the culture as we go through Tracker's story. It's a bit hard to follow, but I'm optimistic right now. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Just finished chapter one: I wonder how much (view spoiler)[ I’m screwing myself by just acknowledging the background info as stories. It’s almost like you have to pick out the parts with characters you assume are going to come into play in the larger story. I don’t know that it’s so difficult to follow, but if all of these things happening are going to forge together at some point it’s definitely going to get confusing very fast. (hide spoiler)]

I also like the feel of the narration Kaa.

[Trike]

Marlon James on Seth Meyers: https://youtu.be/nZgavGUlLkI

[Kaa]

@Bobby & Sarah: (view spoiler)[Yeah, I've so far been just letting the stories kind of flow past. They're entertaining stories and I'm getting a good sense of Tracker's personality and the world-building, but I'm going to be in trouble if I'm actually supposed to be keeping track of all of the details. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Kaa wrote: "@Bobby & Sarah: [spoilers removed]"

This has been my strategy too, partly because if I was trying to keep track of all the details, I would be lost after only one chapter.

So far I'm really enjoying it.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Glad I'm not alone in the way I'm treating the stories. For a moment I was worried I was going to get halfway through and have no idea what's going on.

I also wanted to add that the hardcover edition of this book is absolutely gorgeous. I love everything right down to the paper it's printed on. There are a few different maps which made me pretty much squeal in delight. And I love Gaiman's quote on the back about it: "it's something very old that feels very new". Looking forward to reading more tonight.

[Kaa]

@Sarah: Yeah, I am already thinking that this is one I'm going to need to buy a physical copy of.

Through the end of Part 2 (~40%): (view spoiler)[Ah, now we're getting into what feels like the real core of the story. The style of telling hasn't really changed, but it's becoming more focused. I'm finding myself caught up in the search for this boy and the mystery of who he is and why everyone wants to find him. (hide spoiler)] I feel like I've shifted from observing the story more passively to being drawn into it and getting invested.

Re: reading strategy: (view spoiler)[All right, I'm starting to see more references to previous stories now, and there's definitely been a few times when I've gone back to look up things that he's previously talked about. (hide spoiler)]

Content notes for part two (no spoilers, just general topics): (view spoiler)[discussion of pedophilia, murder of children, discussion of domestic violence, rape (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Kaa wrote: "@Sarah: Yeah, I am already thinking that this is one I'm going to need to buy a physical copy of.

Through the end of Part 2 (~40%): [spoilers removed] I feel like I've shifted from observing the s..."

Kaa about the content warnings: (view spoiler)[Is the child murder and pedophilia similar to how it was in the first few pages? Is it sort of seen at a distance? I don't really know how else to put it.

It didn't bother me when I first read it because it was like a third hand account of something that seemed long past- but if it gets any closer than that I want to be prepared. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

And yes I agree- I might need to buy this even though I have no idea yet how much I'll really like it. Hopefully I'll love it but I might need it just as a book lover.

[Kaa]

Sarah wrote: "Kaa about the content warnings: [spoiler removed]"

(view spoiler)[The clear pedophilia continues to be pretty distant, as in the first few pages. There are some less distant scenes where the participant is described as young, or a boy, but the age is less clear and they didn't strike me in the same way as what's described in the first few pages.

Some of the killing of kids gets a lot closer - things Tracker or another person telling the story is directly observing and describing. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Kaa wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Kaa about the content warnings: [spoiler removed]"

The clear pedophilia continues to be pretty distant, as in the first few pages. There are some less distant scenes where the partic..."

Thank you. I'm going to forge ahead and see what happens.

[Kaa]

A conversation between Victor LaValle and Marlon James, largely about this book: https://www.vulture.com/2019/02/marlo.... I also really enjoyed LaValle's review, which is linked early in the Vulture article.

[Ariana]

So I am listening to this, and it is both awesome and hard. The narrator is great, and it as others have noted, listening to this book fits well with they style of narration itself. The hard part is that the narrator has a deep voice, and so it's hard for me to catch all of the non-English words sprinkled through the story, which makes it even trickier to figure out what's going on. I'm on hold for the ebook at the library, so hopefully that'll come in before I get too far and I can go back and forth as needed.

[Travis]

My audio book came in from the library before my print book, so I've started off by listening to the first three chapters. On the one hand, doing so makes following along even more difficult. I really want to refer back to the list of characters and, ummm, did I already forget the first what happened during the two stories told in chapter 1? Yes, yes I did. On the other hand, it's gorgeously narrated, and the language is so good I feel happy going along for the ride, though I'm looking forward to being able to review in the print book. I can already tell this one will require a future reread.

Quick point about ch. 2

(view spoiler)[The notion of the human body as essentially hermaphroditic unless "corrected" through circumcision is just fascinating. And then the corresponding notion that homosexual desires will emerge from this hermaphroditic self. This part really fascinated me. It reminded me somewhat of turn-of-the-century books like The Intermediate Sex: A Study of Some Transitional Types of Men and Women, which used sexual inversion (male body, female soul, e.g.) as an explanation for homosexuality. But I also wonder if James has other, non-Western histories in mind for this explanation of Trapper's queerness. (hide spoiler)]

[Bobby]

I am finished with chapter 4. I'm starting to get the flow a little better and I'm getting a feel for the world and characters. I'm still confused about certain things, but reading slowly has helped me absorb most of the information I need. I do agree with others saying a re-read might be in order later down the road.

Spoilers up through the end of chapter 4.

(view spoiler)[I thought I had a handle on the children at Sangoma's hut until there was a smoke girl. At first I thought they were just children with disabilities or cultural taboos, but apparently there is a little bit of magic there.

I'm enjoying all of the magical/mythical creatures like the Yumboes and the creepy monster dude that just got killed.

The one thing I'm not really clear on yet is the timeline. I think this is a story of what has happened previously in Tracker's life, but every once in a while there's something that confuses me. Like when Sangoma sent Tracker to find the boy, I thought it was the boy that died from the beginning of the story. Then I finally felt like it was a different boy, and that boy died too, so I went back to being confused. I'm pretty sure at this point that the story up to this point is still just a story of Tracker's early years that just happens to have a similarity to what has happened in the "present." Maybe that's why he's telling this story to the priest/inquisitor. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

My print copy finally came in!

I'm now through the middle of chapter 4 and still amazed by the writing and the richness of the world...

One thing I'm struggling with regarding characters though:

(view spoiler)[It seems like the default attitude of any one being toward any other is hostility, antagonism, and aggression. Or am I missing something? In some books, events have occurred or the world is explained in a way that such universal mistrust makes sense. But I'm not sure yet why that would be the case in *this* world and with these characters. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Travis wrote: "One thing I'm struggling with regarding characters though:

(view spoiler) "

I was thinking about this also! I was sort of reading it as (view spoiler)[not necessarily true of the world in general, but more of a reflection on Tracker's view of the world. He grew up with an abusive parent, and then finds out the bit of family history that makes him feel totally betrayed, and it feels like a lot of the negative things that happen in the rest of Part 1 can be traced to Tracker treating others with suspicion (which makes sense, given what he's found out and what he's experienced). (hide spoiler)] (spoilers for Part 1, through Ch. 5).

But yes, (view spoiler)[the end of Ch. 5 is awful and heartbreaking, and so so dark. I did think the contrast between the different groups of people and their moral and ethical beliefs was pretty interesting. We know the Ku regularly kill children that they deem to be "cursed" in some way or another, which is despicable, but they view as a "needs of the many" type of justification. Then we have Tracker trying to imply that City Folk are more evolved, only to have it pointed out people in the city are just as bad, if not worse. And the Gangatom start off being the sworn enemies of the Ku who killed Tracker's father and brother over a feud, but turn out to be the only group that isn't practicing child torture and murder.

I thought Tracker's own moral arc here was pretty interesting: starting off believing that the Mingi are actually cursed, to eventually killing his own blood to avenge the murder of the children. (hide spoiler)](spoilers for Part 1).

[Travis]

End of Part 1

(view spoiler)[I just read your comments Ariana and agree entirely. Awful and heartbreaking, and so so dark, indeed. Just when I thought it couldn't get sadder, Tracker has to act cruelly to Smoke Girl in order to push her away from him and back to the Gangatom.

The ending of Part 1, as horrible as it was, also brought things together for me and helped orient my reading to the plot, characters, and world a bit more. (hide spoiler)]

[Joon]

Only up through chapter two so far, but this book is impenetrable. Glad to see I'm not the only one struggling.

[Kaa]

Ch 17: (view spoiler)[I've been waiting for this chapter for a while! It's nice to see things coming together. I really like how the book is structured so far, with part 1 focused on background, then part 2 on setting up the quest, and now finally in part 3 starting to put together some of the stories. Seems like we're getting close to the big confrontation... (hide spoiler)]

Ch 18: (view spoiler)[ I feel like I've read a lot of stories recently where people are constructing cities in trees, but I still find it a very cool set-up. ETA: that's quite a reveal at the end of the chapter, though. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

@Ariana and Travis: Those are both really excellent points. I've kind of been wondering about this myself, but I really like your take on it Ariana and I think that probably makes the most sense.

[Travis]

I've read through chapter 8 now and (view spoiler)[the overwhelming and unrelenting nature of the violence is becoming almost unbearable. (hide spoiler)]