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The Divine Comedy > Paradiso, Cantos I thru V

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message 1: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Summary

Canto I

After Dante (the author, not the character) gives glory to God, he points out that one who returns from up high can neither fully explain nor fully grasp his experience, but he will do what he can. In emulation of the classics, he invokes Apollo, the god of the sun, to help him in this effort. It is now noon and Dante (the character) turns to loom at Beatrice, who is staring at the sun. The light reflecting off her eyes pours into Dante’s soul so strongly that he can only sustain it for a short time. But as he continues to gaze on her, he feels changed within. Through her, he can see the heavens spinning like wheels, bright as the sun and on fire. He feels his body lifting and asks, how could this be? Beatrice explains that it is natural to be lifted toward the heavens, and that it is unnatural—because sin is the unnatural state in man—to be held down to earth.

Canto II

In a naval metaphor, Dante (the author) warns the reader that not all are fit to follow him on this journey. Because of their innate thirst for God, the two pilgrims (Dante the character and Beatrice his guide) rise with the speed of an arrow shot to the first heavenly sphere, the moon. Dante asks Beatrice, what do the dark spots on the moon signify? She turns the question on him and asks him what he thinks they are. After Dante answers incorrectly, Beatrice goes on to explain first why he is wrong (it has nothing to do with rare or dense matter) and second proposes an experiment of mirrors to arrive at the truth. If the mirrors are staggered, then a light shining into them appears different size but the original light is the same for each mirror. The differences in light and dark coloration on the moon is due to the different distribution of graces God has used to create the universe, though it’s the same light that shines on all. It is the matter which has varying capacity to absorb it.


Canto III

As Dante was about to confess his error on the moon spots, he sees the outline of faces as if in the bottom of a pool of water. The faces are all eager to speak to him. Beatrice explains to him these beings are assigned under the sphere of the moon—the moon associated with inconstancy—because they in life failed in maintaining their vows. She urges him to speak to them, and he finds the one who speaks back to be his cousin-in-law, Piccarda, mentioned in Purgatorio (cantos XXIII & XXIV) when Dante met her brother and his friend, Donato Farese. In life she had vowed to be a nun but was forced out of the convent by her other brother to marry for political reasons. Dante asks her if she is content to be in the lowest sphere of heavenly blessedness. She responds that she has no desire for more, that she would not be blessed in the first place if her will was discordant with God’s. She replies with the famous line, “In His will is our peace.” She speaks of the spirit beside her, Constanza, the Empress and wife of Henry VI, who was also pulled out of a convent to marry. So both have failed in keeping their religious vows, though both forced. Piccarda then fades into the mist, singing Ave Maria.

Canto IV

Still at the sphere of the moon, Dante (the character) is perturbed by two equally perplexing implications of his encounter with Piccarda. Beatrice reads his mind and formulates for him the two questions at the root of Dante’s confusion. She answers the second question first by explaining that these souls do not reside in these heavenly spheres but appear to him at the sphere as a sign to reflect the distinct heavenly graces that people receive. These spirits at the moon reside in Empyrean with all the other spirits in heaven but here reflect the lower rank they received. This, she continues, is in complete contradiction to what is generally understood on earth. He then answers the first question, pertaining to the justice of people forced from their vows being of lower rank. It is true, they were forced, but nonetheless their wills to maintain their vows was incomplete. Their will could have found an escape or even death to uphold their vows. Satisfied, Dante asks a third question, can a person make up in some other way for a vow left unfulfilled? Beatrice looked at Dante with eyes so radiant that it almost overpowered him.


Canto V

Beatrice first addresses Dante's inability to directly look at her, telling him that she has flamed out more brightly because having moved closer toward God, she has more perfect vision. Then she reformulates his question on whether a vow left unfulfilled can be made up. Beatrice explains that one's free will given to God in a sacred pledge, one sacrifices further freedom. The only allowable substitution for an unfulfilled vow must be of a significantly greater vow granted through God's representative, the Church. She cautions about making foolish vows. As fast as an arrow shot the two rise up out of the moon and reach the sphere of Mercury. He sees a number of spirits there as if they are fish in a pond, and one approaches to speak to him. He tells Dante that he and the spirits around him are on fire from the light from heaven, and then asks Dante whether he would like to receive some of this light. Dante responds that he doesn't know who the spirit is and why he is under the influence of this sphere. With apparent joy, the spirit glows even brighter.


message 2: by Galicius (last edited Jan 28, 2019 01:32PM) (new)

Galicius | 495 comments Canto I

The beginning of Paradiso differs from the beginning of the first cantos of the Inferno and Purgatorio. Dante steps back and recognizes God as the prime mover and agent whereas in the previous parts Dante set himself as the guide as he offered to take us through Hell and Purgatory.

The first word of the Canto “glory” is used in a different sense than we normally understand such as fame or splendor. Here it means “light” because Dane tells us that glory “shines”. God is the mover of all things and also the source of glory which is light. He moves all things and shines over all. This is THE message of the first stanza.

The mention of light shining “In one part more and in another less” (Longfellow translation) suggests some kind of an order. Dante tells us he is in heaven “which most his light receives.” He is as close to God as anyone can be. He does not have the full ability to tell us in language what he saw with his eyes because memory intrudes but he will disclose what he can remember. He looked into infinity and came back into time. There must be a great difference.

Dante turns to Apollo, god of poetry, to inspire him. He appeals to Apollo in a voice similar to poets asking the muse to inspire them as in the beginning of Iliad. He does not want to be presumptuous like Marsyas who, in some versions of this myth, tried to outdo Apollo in music, and was either killed or flayed. There is also the question of hubris and Dante is asking Apollo for inspiration in a passive way and as he addresses God it is in a spirit of humility because Dante fears transgressing:

O power divine, lend'st thou thyself to me
So that the shadow of the blessed realm
Stamped in my brain I can make manifest,

Thou'lt see me come unto thy darling tree,
And crown myself thereafter with those leaves
Of which the theme and thou shall make me worthy


Dante realizes he is in Heaven and when he sees Beatrice and is changed like Glaucus in Ovid’s “Metamorphoses” who became a sea-god by eating some herbs that he saw fish eat. Dante’s change is internal. He says he passes “beyond humanity” and he cannot describe it. Dante makes a reference, we are told by the translator Sinclair, to St. Paul who wrote “I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven.” (2 Cor. 12.2) Third heaven is a concept of a mode of vision. St. Paul kept silent about his vision, Dante is somewhere between. He does not want to overstep himself like Marsyas did but does not stop completely like St. Paul. Is Dante a pilgrim, or a visionary mystic?

At this point Dante is overwhelmed by what he experiences. It is beyond his mind’s comprehension which brings a sight of pity from Beatrice:

"Already did I rest content
From great amazement; but am now amazed
In what way I transcend these bodies light."

She tells him that the universe resembles God in the form and order of all things. This order of things in the universe resembles God, she tells Dante. This does seem like a radical idea. What does she mean? Or rather what does Dante mean by putting this statement in her mouth? Canto I ends with this perplexing statement. Beatrice suggests that in the order of the universe fire naturally moves up it can come down in a thunder. We the creatures

“Sometimes the creature, who the power possesses,
Though thus impelled, to swerve some other way,”

Canto II

What seems significant in the beginning of the second Canto is how Dante describes our journey if we want to follow him in terms of traveling by water. This type of a journey is both dangerous and leaves no trace behind. Who was his intended audience, I wonder. The few that he refers to might indeed have been very few. He dedicated it to a nobleman but I am learning it was only the first ten cantos of Paradiso that were delivered to him. Dante may have a greater intention, a spiritual one.


message 3: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Good points Galicius. I'll have more on the variation of light as I complete my essay. It's part of a rather complicated idea that is formulated in these early cantos and runs through the entire Paradisio.


message 4: by Manny (last edited Jan 30, 2019 09:19AM) (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
The most important theological concept in these first few cantos I think is this inequality of graces that are distributed and attained. And what I think makes it difficult to grasp, at least for me, is the multifaceted nature of it. Let’s look at the several suggestions in the text. First is right in the opening lines:

The glory of Him who moves all things
pervades the universe and shines
in one part more and in another less.

I was in that heaven which receives
more of His light. He who comes down from there
can neither know nor tell what he has seen,

for, drawing near to its desire,
so deeply is our intellect immersed
that memory cannot follow after it. (Par. I.1-9)


So right at the beginning we see that God’s light permeates “in one part more and in another less.” This appears to suggest that there is an uneven distribution of blessings. Later in the canto Dante states “The lamp of the world rises on us mortals/at different points” (ll. 37-38) which on the surface is a simple statement of astronomical fact, but as you read further down it makes you wonder if Dante implies more. The bright heavenly light shines into Beatrice, and Beatrice turns toward her left (l. 46) to fully face the sun, and the rays bounce off her and return to the heavens, Dante peering into her eyes is a recipient of the light and through her can see the glory of the sun. And then:

Much that our powers here cannot sustain is there
allowed by virtue of the nature of the place
created as the dwelling fit for man.

I could not bear it long, yet not so brief a time
as not to see it sparking everywhere,
like liquid iron flowing from the fire. (ll. 55-60)


Light is clearly more than just the external energy we experience but in the poem a symbol of God’s grace. So he was allowed to receive this grace because he is up in heaven and not on earth, so location does seem to make a difference, but even here he could only sustain it for a “brief time.” Again by itself, I don’t think it reaches a complete theological point, but it is accumulating force.

Let’s continue. And then in Canto II we get the discourse on varying spots of the moon. Dante believes it has to do with density and rarity but Beatrice first refutes him and goes on with her experiment of three mirrors:

'Take three mirrors, placing two at equal distance
from you, letting the third, from farther off,
also meet your eyes, between the other two.

'Still turned to them, have someone set,
well back of you, a light that, shining out,
returns as bright reflection from all three.

'Although the light seen farthest off
seems smaller in its size, still you will observe
that it must shine with equal brightness.

'Now, as the substantial form of snow,
if struck by warming rays, is then deprived
both of its former color and its cold,

'I shall now reshape your intellect,
thus deprived, with a light so vibrant
that your mind will quiver at the sight. (II. 97-111)


The location of the mirror is critical to the size of the source, and the further from the source, the less the intensity. Also important here is how the recipient reacts to the light. Just as snow melts from sunlight, so does one’s mind and intellect get reshaped by the light. She goes on to explain that the source of light is behind it all and His light moves the varying spheres, which direct their distinctive influence across the universe for His purpose. Ultimately this reaches the individual:

'And the heaven made fair by all these lights
takes its stamp from the intellect that makes it turn,
making of itself the very seal of that imprinting.

'And as the soul within your dust
is distributed through the different members,
conforming to their various faculties,

'so angelic intelligence unfolds its bounty,
multiplied down through the stars,
while revolving in its separate oneness. (II. 130-138)


It is from this “imprinting” of heavenly light that we receive grace and influence from above. But that is still not the complete picture because a “stamping” would eliminate the free will. “The soul within [the] dust”—that is the fundamental element of ones being—varies in faculty, and so reacts individually to that light. Just so the moon spots. They are reacting differently to the light.

So to sum up here, Dante is trying to capture the immense complexity of God working His will while we individuals maintain our free will. Light, allegorically standing for grace, does not permeate evenly through the universe, and we the receptacle of that grace do not process it equally.

We can then see it worked out in Canto III with the character of Piccarda. She is under the influence of the moon because she has been inconstant in her vow to be a nun. Unfortunately her brother, Corso, forced her out of the convent to marry for his political advantage. She did not want to break her vow, but was forced to. Same goes for her neighbor in this sphere, Constanza, ironically named because she was inconstant. Constanza too was forced out of her convent against her will to marry the Holy Roman Emperor.

Later, Dante (the character) in Canto IV asks Beatrice—actually more precisely intends to ask but Beatrice can read his mind and articulates it before he does—about the justice of these two spirits limited from the highest spheres of heaven because they were forced to break their vows against their will. Beatrice clarifies:

No, all adorn the highest circle --
\but they enjoy sweet life in differing measure
as they feel less or more of God's eternal breath.

'Those souls put themselves on view here
not because they are allotted to this sphere
but as sign of less exalted rank in Heaven. (IV. 34-39)


There is no injustice. All saved souls reside in the highest circle, but they experience God’s breath (another metaphor for grace) “in different measure.” They are here at the moon because they are “of a less exalted rank.” This explains why the two spirits are in this sphere but it still doesn’t quite answer why a forced broken vow is inconstant. Beatrice explains this further down in a beautiful simile:

'For the will, except by its own willing, is not spent,
but does as by its nature fire does in flame,
though violence may force it down one thousand times.

'Thus, if it stays bent, whether much or little,
it then accepts that force, as indeed did these,
since they could have retreated to their holy place. (IV. 76-81)


The human will is like a flame striving upward. If force attempts to curb it, it will either be indomitable or it will acquiesce. There is here a subtle difference between those that resist the force and those that accept the force. Beatrice goes on to contrast Piccarda and Constanza against St. Lawrence and Gaius Mucius Scaevola. Someone with constant will finds a way to keep their vow or dies trying.

Each person, then, has a different capacity to receive God’s grace, which shines unequally on people. So is the notion of unequal capacity for grace theologically sound? St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians outlines the differences in abilities between humans:

There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes. (1 Cor 12: 4-11)


Dante aesthetically reformulates St. Paul’s differences of gifts into his influences of the spheres. And so we will see that each sphere has a gift associated with it. Jupiter for just rulers, Mercury for ambition, the sun for wisdom, and so on. What about the notion that everyone receives varying degrees of light, and therefore grace? Yes, that is Church doctrine. God provides sufficient grace to all to attain salvation, but it is not equally distributed. And what about the notion that each individual can only hold so much grace? Well, look at Luke 1:28 where the angel Gabriel addresses the Blessed Virgin, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” If Our Lady is “full of grace,” then others are not “full.” In Dante’s anthropology, then, humans are like cups—receptacles—holding quantities of God’s grace, some bigger, some smaller, some full, some not so full. Picture the Blessed Mother as being one supersized cup filled to the top. Perhaps then someone like St. Francis of Assisi is a large cup, maybe three-quarters full. Someone like Piccarda is a regular sized cup maybe just half full. Now perhaps sinner me is probably only a small whiskey shot glass perhaps only a quarter full. ;)

If you’ve understood this concept, I think you’ve understood one of the most difficult concepts in the Paradisio.


message 5: by Galicius (last edited Jan 30, 2019 09:47AM) (new)

Galicius | 495 comments Manny wrote: "The most important theological concept in these first few cantos I think is this inequality of graces that are distributed and attained. And what I think makes it difficult to grasp, at least for m..."

You’re making the theology here quite clear and humbly as a “small whiskey shot glass”. I follow your outlining of these Dante Cantos. My reading was that Dante is not talking about the distribution of grace among men here on earth but where he is at his level in heaven but you are correct and we have Piccarda and Costanza to consider and they are on earth. Dante is telling us that he cannot describe his experience of what he experienced of his vision in heaven, that he cannot even fully experience the vision because he lacks the necessary grace. You may recall Dante is afraid and tells us at the beginning of his entrance to Inferno “I am not Aeneas, I am not Paul”. The reference to St. Paul is probably accurate here. St. Paul had difficulty in describing his vision in 2 Cor. 12.2. Dante thinks he lacks the grace to describe what he experienced:

“The passing beyond the humanity cannot be set forth in words; let the examples suffice, therefore, for him to whom grace reserves the experience.” (Sinclair translation


message 6: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Galicius, I think it's the distribution of graces both on earth and heaven. But I'm not a hundred percent sure. Let me think about it tonight. Bringing up that opening where Dante questions his fitness for it is spot on. What is not answered in these opening cantos is whether a person can expand the size of his cup. Is there something I can do that makes me go from shot glass to at least regular size...lol. We will get an answer to that in some future cantos.


message 7: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Some random observations.

In the middle of the first canto, in answering Dante’s question on why he is able to move through matter, Beatrice makes what I think is a statement that captures the aesthetics of the entire Divine Comedy:

‘All things created have an order
in themselves, and this begets the form
that lets the universe resemble God. (Par. I. 103-105)


All things have a reason for their form, which in turn is an image of God. So too does the Commedia, an order built on the form of logical patterns—spiraling circles downward for hell based on justice, rising ringlets upward in heaven built on levels of grace. The form of the book is the form of the universe, which resembles God.

In that passage, Beatrice in explaining why Dante is moving upward, she describes the bent of natural inclination, either upward or downward.

'In that order, all natures have their bent
according to their different destinies,
whether nearer to their source or farther from it.

'They move, therefore, toward different harbors
upon the vastness of the sea of being,
each imbued with instinct that impels it on its course.

'This instinct carries fire toward the moon,
this is the moving force in mortal hearts,
this binds the earth to earth and makes it one. (I. 109-117)


Each created thing will move toward its destiny, and the created thing of man is like the flame is designed to move upward toward God like flame moves toward the moon. She goes on to explain why not all move souls move upward.

It is true that as a work will often fail
correspond to its intended form, its matter
deaf and unresponsive to the craftsman's plan,

'so sometimes a creature, having the capacity
to swerve, will, thus impelled, head off another way,
in deviation from the better course

'and, just as sometimes we see fire
falling from a cloud, just so the primal impulse,
diverted by false pleasure, turns it toward earth. (I. 127-135)


So given free will (“having the capacity/to swerve) man does not always choose to respond “to the craftsman’s plan.” The “primal impulse” to go upward is perverted. Sin therefore pulls us down. The natural state of man is really to go up.

See how this works in the conceptualizations of hell, purgatory, and heaven? When one is fixed in sin, one spirals downward to ones fixed level of justice in hell. The climb up the mountain of purgatory is the struggle to dispose of this sin and find one’s true natural state. Once one reconfigures to the state one was intended, one rises to its heavenly position.

The workings of heaven are such that the spirits have very little definition. When Dante first sees Piccarda and the other spirits in the moon, it seems to him that they are vague reflections. He describes them as such.

As through clear, transparent glass
or through still and limpid water,
not so deep that its bed is lost from view,

the outlines of our faces are returned
so faint a pearl on a pallid forehead
comes no less clearly to our eyes,

I saw many such faces eager to speak,
at which I fell into the error opposite to that
which inflamed a man to love a fountain. (Par. III. 10-18)


The outlines of their faces are so faint that their heads I think look like pearls. That is interesting. What we’ll find is that each character’s features get less distinguishable the further into heaven Dante travels. In a few spheres further in, the characters will be no more than just lights. Dante later points out to Piccarda how her face shines forth.

Then I said to her: 'From your transfigured faces
shines forth a divinity I do not know,
and it transforms the images I can recall. (III. 58-60)


So those in heaven have achieved a “transfiguration” and the shine is of the measure of grace. No wonder as Dante goes further into paradise the character’s faces, actually their entire bodies, have a more intense glow.

I guess the outline of Piccarda’s face is clear enough to see her smile when Dante asks her if she is content with the lowest level of paradise. She smiles when she answers him. The facial smile is certainly a leitmotif in these early cantos. In addition to Piccarda here, Beatrice smiles twice in these cantos (lines I.95, III.25). Recall how at the end of Purgatorio after Dante receives absolution he can now look into Beatrice’s face and sees her second beauty, her smile. This was associated with love. And there is much more smiling in heaven. Hollander in his notes points out that Paradisio refers to twice as many smiles as in Purgatorio, and I don’t believe there were any in Inferno.

Piccarda’s answer to Dante about being content is a well-known passage, and warrants quoting the entire speech.

Brother, the power of love subdues our will
so that we long for only what we have
and thirst for nothing else.

'If we desired to be more exalted,
our desires would be discordant
with His will, which assigns us to this place.

'That, as you will see, would not befit these circles
if to be ruled by love is here required
and if you consider well the nature of that love.

'No, it is the very essence of this blessèd state
that we remain within the will of God,
so that our wills combine in unity.

'Therefore our rank, from height to height,
throughout this kingdom pleases all the kingdom,
as it delights the King who wills us to His will.

'And in His will is our peace.
It is to that sea all things move,
both what His will creates and that which nature makes.' (III.70-87)


The power of love subdues our will so that our blessed state depends on God’s will, and “in His will is our peace.” St. Thomas Aquinas defines love as wanting the best for the other person. We see it here in action. Wanting others to have the highest grace is more important than we achieving the highest. There is no envy, even though Piccarda was denied a higher place because of her brother’s despicable action and not through of her fault.


message 8: by Frances (new)

Frances Richardson | 834 comments Absolutely beautiful, Manny. You’re giving us a master class in Dante.


message 9: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Frances wrote: "Absolutely beautiful, Manny. You’re giving us a master class in Dante."

Thank you Frances. I hope I'm not going over people's heads. If so, please ask questions.


message 10: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1865 comments Mod
Dante still uses the term "shades" for the persons he encounters. For Inferno and even Purgatorio that seemed quite fitting, as we are dealing with sin and its effects. A shade is something dark, less bright than the surroundings. Somehow it doesn't seem to be as fitting for heaven. What am I missing?


message 11: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
On which sphere are you seeing "shade" Kerstin? Could you give me the canto and line number? On the moon he thinks they are reflections, but in each subsequent sphere they become more vague than that. He seems to call them lights and I've seen he calls them "splendors" which is a great name for spirits in heaven. Also, which translation are you using?


message 12: by Joseph (new)

Joseph | 172 comments Kerstin wrote: "Dante still uses the term "shades" for the persons he encounters. For Inferno and even Purgatorio that seemed quite fitting, as we are dealing with sin and its effects. A shade is something dark, l..."

What Dante's getting at with that terminology is that all the souls he encounters are awaiting the General Resurrection. He'll get into it more later on, but the gist of it is that, as long as their souls are separated from their bodies, the persons are incomplete and unable to experience the fullness of the Beatific Vision. That's not to say that they're not already experiencing the Eternal Bliss, but that it won't be fully realized until they're reunited with their bodies.


message 13: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1865 comments Mod
Manny wrote: "On which sphere are you seeing "shade" Kerstin? Could you give me the canto and line number? On the moon he thinks they are reflections, but in each subsequent sphere they become more vague than th..."

Canto V, 106 - 108

"And as these shades approached,
each one of them seemed filled with joy,
so brilliant was the light that shone from them."

This wasn't the only time, though I haven't marked it, so I need to find it again...


message 14: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Kerstin wrote: "Canto V, 106 - 108

"And as these shades approached,
each one of them seemed filled with joy,
so brilliant was the light that shone from them."

This wasn't the only time, though I haven't marked it, so I need to find it again... ."


OK. Interesting in Canto IX he writes:

There above, brightness is gained by joy
as is laughter here, but down below
a shade shows dark when sadness clouds its mind. (70-72)


message 15: by Kerstin (new)

Kerstin | 1865 comments Mod
Joseph wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Dante still uses the term "shades" for the persons he encounters. For Inferno and even Purgatorio that seemed quite fitting, as we are dealing with sin and its effects. A shade is s..."

That explanation, Joseph, makes a lot of sense! I hadn't thought of that.


message 16: by Madeleine (last edited Feb 03, 2019 07:40PM) (new)

Madeleine Myers | 751 comments It's been 50 years since i studied Dante in college, so this is like starting all over. My first question is, which translation are most of us reading?

Second, I'm a bit confused by Canto V and what Dante is getting at--I don't know if it's me or this translation (Kirkpatrick). Is Dante merely curious about what seems to be a caste system in heaven or is he asking whether Piccarda is stuck on a lower level of heaven not because she broke her vow as much as her being (against her will) forced into a lesser vocation, a lesser state of holiness? Is he asking if she should have resisted more or if she might have made more of her spiritual accomplishments within her married state? Does he think God has been unfair to her?

Is Beatrice telling Dante that different souls have different capacities for grace and one may as a result be more or less capable of the beatific vision/or seeing God's light than another? Does Beatrice's explanation answer any of his concerns?


message 17: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Madelieine, I think we're all reading different translations. When we started the Divine Comedy as a long term read, I recommended the Hollander and Hollander translation. I've read several translations and compared several more, and I find the precision and beauty best captured by Hollander husband and wife (Robert and Jean) team. What's great is that through Princeton University, you can also access the translation for free. You might want to compare. Here:
http://etcweb.princeton.edu/dante/ind...

Where in Canto V are you alluding to? I think Dante asks Piccarda in Canto III about not achieving the highest realm because of the broken vow and Beatrice explains the different capacities and distribution of grace in Canto IV.

Madeleine wrote: "Is Beatrice telling Dante that different souls have different capacities for grace and one may as a result be more or less capable of the beatific vision/or seeing God's light than another? Does Beatrice's explanation answer any of his concerns? ."

Yes, she is telling Dante that. Read my explanation in comment #4 above. Especially read my second to last paragraph. I concluded with a glass analogy: The Blessed Mother is a supersized cup filled to the top. I'm just a shot glass filled a quarter way. ;) I think Dante is satisfied with the answer. He doesn't bring it up again.


message 18: by Madeleine (new)

Madeleine Myers | 751 comments Thank you. I will look that one up. I wanted to find the Esolen translation, as a friend recommended it, but settled for the one in the library (I found the version in the Harvard classics too much work to read!)

Yes, Dante's concern does begin in Canto III, And your explanation agrees with my understanding. I think that also applies to our individual glory--once we are in community with God, He fills us each with all the glory we can handle. Nothing to be envious or sad about....I'm reminded when we were arranging our mom's funeral, my brother and I had been searching for a suitable picture, and after almost giving up, my brother went back to the box he and I had already been through, and there on top was a picture of her we had never seen before, when she was 19 years old and so beautiful. I told my brother--that's how she looks now, and I think she was trying to let us know! (She was 95 when she died).


message 19: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Ah, that's sweet about your mom Madeleine.

What is not answered in these early cantos is whether we can grow that cup size. I think that gets answered later on, but like I said in my introduction, my knowledge of Paradisio is not as strong as Inferno and Purgatorio. We'll both just have to wait to find out.


message 20: by Madeleine (new)

Madeleine Myers | 751 comments What is not answered in these early cantos is whether we can grow that cup size. I think that gets answered later on, but like I said in my introduction, my knowledge of Paradisio is not as strong as Inferno and Purgatorio. We'll both just have to wait to find out.

I'll be watching for that answer. I think Inferno is the most memorable--I still remember much of that, but much less about the other two books. I did pick up the Princeton website, and like it much better.
Thanks for the tip.


message 21: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
You're welcome.


message 22: by Manny (new)

Manny (virmarl) | 5046 comments Mod
Many translations of the Divine Comedy use Gustave Doré's illustrations throughout. You can read about Dore here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave...
and more specifically his illustrations of scenes from the Divine Comedy here:
http://www.worldofdante.org/gallery_d....

His prints of Dante's work are not in color as far as I know, but someone put color to this one of Beatrice and Dante entering heaven that I thought was so beautiful, I had to share it. Here:
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/25/20/90/25...

Isn't that absolutely gorgeous!


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