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message 1: by Nathan (last edited Aug 20, 2014 09:23PM) (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments I participated in a discussion over in the Christian Supernatural Fiction folder that quickly became theological in nature and as such was off-topic in that forum.

One of the topics raised in that discussion related to Jesus' use of parables in His evangelism, and how that might serve as an example to Christian fiction authors.

I posited that the reason Jesus gave for speaking in parables was so that those not called to salvation by the Father would not understand and obey, lest they be saved. This view was challenged by Werner, who argued for the use of Parables by Jesus as a valid precedent for Christian authors to use their fiction to teach the truths of the gospel. You can read that (relocated and mildly rearranged) exchange in the "Christian Fiction's role in Evangelism" folder if you are interested.

I started this thread because I want to explore in more detail the point of Jesus' use of parables as it pertains to soteriology (salvation doctrine), which would be off topic in that location.

I submit Matthew 13:9-16 as my proof text:

[Mat 13:9-16 ESV] 9 He who has ears, let him hear." 10 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" 11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'"You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive." 15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

Jesus is very clear. He spoke in parables so that those to whom it had been given (by God)to know the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven would know them (with Jesus to explicitly provide the meaning of the parables to them in private later) AND so that those to whom it had NOT been given (by God) to know the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven would not know them.

Jesus' use of parables is NOT intended to persuade those not given to Him by the Father to change their minds. Jesus use of parables is NOT the cause of these people's unbelief. But it is specifically tailored NOT to change that unbelief.
Many times Jesus ended a parable (or an inspired exposition of OT scripture) with the words "He who has ears, let him hear." He did this because He was acknowledging that not everybody has ears; in other words not everybody is capable of hearing:

[Mat 11:25-27 ESV] 25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Jesus explains His reason for speaking in parables in the immediate context of having just told the parable of the sower. This parable gives more detail about the very thing He knows His disciples are about to ask Him. Hence Jesus, after explaining His use of parables, immediately goes on to explain the parable of the sower to His Disciples. People are soil. The gospel is seed. Can soil choose where it is located? It is beyond the control of the people whether they are soil by the wayside, soil in the thorn patch, soil on the rocks, or soil completely clear of fertility killers, and soil cannot change that. Many people will fail to produce fruit from the seed of the gospel. There is nothing people can do to "earn" the right to be fertile soil. All soil is cursed since the fall.

Paul makes use of a similar soil/clay metaphor in Romans 9:
[Rom 9:20-21 ESV] 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"

Yes, Jesus spoke in parables many times. But we must not forget that He began His public ministry by simply commanding all men to repent and believe the gospel. This is a role He continued throughout Judea for 3 years.

[Mat 4:17 ESV] "From that time (Following His baptism and overcoming temptation in the wilderness) Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

[Mar 1:14-15 ESV] "14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Thoughts?


message 2: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 132 comments Just to clarify my understanding, are you saying that Jesus' no-parable teaching was meant more for non believers to become believers and that his parables were meant to teach people who were already believers in a way that would not be understood by non believers?


message 3: by Nathan (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments Hi Jessica.
I am saying that scripture records Jesus as making general and clear calls to repent, to all in earshot. He did this constantly for years. This reaffirms the personal responsibility and culpability of us all. We are without excuse since we are no longer ignorant.

I am also saying that Jesus taught in parables to fulfill prophecy, and to instruct those who are being saved while leaving those who are not being saved to harden their hearts in their sin. It's not popular doctrine amongst humanists, but no person can come to Jesus unless God the Father first draws that person.


message 4: by Nathan (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments Jesus didn't speak in parables to make the gospel message palatable to unbelievers, and in some way hope to convert them by stealth. He spoke in parables to exclude those who aren't being saved from understanding the truth.


message 5: by Tom (new)

Tom Schwerbrock | 5 comments In other words, discernment of the parables only to the humble and contrite heart- yes?


message 6: by Werner (new)

Werner | 2268 comments This whole question ties in directly to the larger debate of Calvinism (determinism) vs. Arminianism (free will). Our thread https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... deals with that broader question, although it doesn't actually have very much substantive discussion of the merits of the two positions so far.

All interpreters of Scripture, I think, would pretty much agree that Jesus' use of parables was a teaching tool for the receptive, while veiling the teaching from the unreceptive. And it would similarly be generally agreed that receptivity is a gift of divine grace. The same thing would be true of any communication of spiritual truth in story or metaphoric form, whether Jesus was the storyteller or someone else. (The difference would be that Jesus' stories are perfect for God's purpose, while ours are necessarily imperfect.)

Even from a Calvinist standpoint (as I understand it), however, it does not automatically follow that we humans can infallibly distinguish which individuals reading or listening to a publicly available story will be receptive to its message. (God obviously knows, but He knows a great many things that we don't.) Nor does it necessarily follow that it's absolutely impossible that such a story could reach anyone who would benefit from it. In fact, even without assuming absolute determinism, a faith in God's general providence might assume that He's capable of bringing it to the attention of those who would be receptive and benefit from it.


message 7: by Nathan (last edited Dec 21, 2016 05:13AM) (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments Hi Tom,
Humility and contriteness of heart are definitely attributes we non-omniscient humans look for as evidence of a person's conversion, but they're not the focus of "qualification" for being granted the understanding of teaching from parables. I'd say discernment of the intended meaning of the parables is provided to those God has determined to reveal them to, even before the foundation of the World (and therefore before we had done anything to merit that determination from God.) [Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.]

Those who receive this gracious gift (for that is what something unmerited is) receive the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit as both a seal to ensure future redemption/eternal salvation [Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV: 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.] and as a sanctification agent that commences immediately. This sanctification process bears fruit (evidence) which would include humility and repentance. So, those who are being saved, come to understand the truths of scripture when they encounter them, and it changes them from the inside out. So the understanding of parables leads to humility and contrition.

You may say that anyone who picks up a Bible today and reads the parables of Jesus will be able to discern their true meaning, that they are not at all hard to understand. First, I would say that God prompts those who are being saved to pick up a Bible and read the parables for themselves. Second, I would say that we indeed in this era are the blessed beneficiaries of the full revelation of God in our canon of scripture. Yet this knowledge counts against us even moreso if we spurn it! It will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah on the last day, than for this generation who reject Jesus! Third, even today there is not universal agreement within the Church on all the meanings of Jesus parables! So we still see the principle in action.

There is no present need to teach in parables, once the New Covenant had been secured and ratified with Christ's blood. We do not see it as a prevailing teaching method by the Apostles. Far better to follow their lead and preach a clear gospel message.

Bringing this back to Christian Fiction, allegory can be powerful. (Count of Monte Cristo, I'm looking at you...) But I don't know that an author who is Christian needs to justify their fictional work by claiming they are sowing seeds for the kingdom of God. It's how we live our lives and go about our work that usually has the biggest impact on unbelieving observers. Write your fiction with clear conscience!

Werner, hello brother! You have the right of it I believe. We humans (Calvinist or Arminian flavours) certainly cannot infallibly distinguish which individuals will be receptive. That is why we ought focus on the Command of our Lord to preach the gospel in a broad and general sense, making a genuine offer to all, trusting that all who were appointed unto salvation will believe.
[Acts 13:44-48 ESV: 44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.]

This is a very different implication than if the Bible said "and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life." The cause and effect are totally opposite, yet most people seem to imagine that the second reading is what it says.

The dual purpose of Jesus' use of parables was within a very specific set of circumstances that, I believe, are no longer necessary today. We've covered the specific reasons for Jesus' parables in the context of the individual hearer's personal salvation status, but now we can turn the focus to the means of achievement of redemption for all who are God's. We must not forget that Jesus' incarnation was at God's perfect time in history. He taught in parables at that time because it was necessary that the leaders of his nation would reject, revile and crucify him to secure this redemption in the only way possible. Jesus summed up this dual purpose when addressing the identity of the disciple who would betray him: [Mat 26:24 ESV: 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."]

There is one further reason that Jesus taught in parables. It was a means of separating the goats from the sheep. Bear with me and read through this fairly lengthy passage:
[John 6:51-66 ESV: 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. 60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." 66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.]
Jesus confouned many of those who were already claiming to be his disciples with his use of figure and allegory. They just couldn't get past what they thought he was teaching, which amounted to cannibalism if viewed naturally/literally, and they abandoned him.

I've eluded to another of Jesus' common parable themes above, in referencing sheep and goats. Jesus viewed all people as either sheep (those whom God had elected unto salvation before the foundation of the world, those whom God had given to Jesus to save) or goats (those who were not being saved, who would eventually harden their hearts against the gospel and reject Jesus). Sheep are either lost (not yet believers) or found (believers in the flock/church).
Jesus will not rest until all his lost sheep are found.

[Jhn 10:24-28 ESV: 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.]
Notice Jesus doesn't say "but you are not among my sheep because you do not believe." He says "you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." Cause and effect is very important.

[Mat 25:31-33 ESV: 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left....]


message 8: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 132 comments I'm having a little trouble rectifying this idea of predetermined sheep and goats with free will. In your opinion, is it just that God knows before hand which people will believe in him if given information and opportunity (the sheep), and which won't (the goats)? Or did God purposefully design people to be sheep and goats? If the later, that does not seem to equate with free will and a loving God. If the former, do all sheep come to believe before dying? If not (say they live in a remote place and never even hear about God), do they still go to heaven because they would have believed if they had been given the opportunity? And if that is the case, why is evangelism important if there is no need to believe before death and you are born already going to either heaven or hell?


message 9: by Nathan (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments Hi Jessica. Werner is right that this discussion sits firmly within the larger thread of how we are saved. I plan to spend some time in that other thread laying out they key points as I understand them, for your consideration. Here, I will say this for now: Should we reconcile scripture with our notion of man's free will, or should we adjust our notions based on scripture? John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


message 10: by Tyrone (new)

Tyrone Wilson | 15 comments Hi Jessica.

This notion of predetermination has been a major point of disagreement among Christian scholars for a very long time. Some believe that God chooses those whom He will save. Some others do not believe it because if flies in the face of free will. I am in the latter group.

I do agree, however, that God predestines some to be saved and used for a unique purpose...Jeremiah for example (Jeremiah 1:5). I also believe that God saves some so that they may lead others to Him (Romans 8:29). The Apostle Paul, I believe, was saved to bring the Word to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15). The bigger issue, to me at least, is applying man's wisdom to understand God's intent. We cannot know or understand all that God ordains, but we do know that God desires none to perish, which is why He sent His Son, Christ Jesus (John 3:16).

Finally, we must remember that no one deserves salvation. We all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and are worthy of death (condemnation). It is only through God's grace that we are given an opportunity for eternal life with Him.

Thus, the sheep, in my view, are those who choose to become saved by believing in Christ. The goats choose not to believe.


message 11: by T.C. (new)

T.C. Slonaker | 62 comments What is the name of the thread that discusses this? My church has recently become very strictly Calvanist, and I am struggling with it. I'd like to read others' thoughts.


message 12: by Nathan (last edited Dec 23, 2016 12:53AM) (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments Hi TC. There is a topic called Calvinism vs Arminianism here in the Theology area. Not much there yet but feel free to post your concerns and there's plenty of us who will be available to discuss with you. Regardless of perceived labels, if your church elders are preaching by expounding on the Word of God rather than choosing topics and finding a few token Bible verses to match their theme then this is a good thing! That's a church worth sticking with for a while.


message 13: by Werner (new)

Werner | 2268 comments T.C., the link to the thread you're referring to is in message 6. One of the early posts on that thread refers to a couple of books that might be useful resources for understanding the controversy.


message 14: by Andrea (new)

Andrea Yearwood Hi Jessica

I think 1 Peter 1:2, read in the original KJV, clarifies it for us: God's foreknowledge let's Him be able to predestinate, and Romans 8:29 (also in original KJV) beautifully backs it up: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be..."
Thanks for the stimulating question.


message 15: by Nathan (last edited Dec 23, 2016 04:22AM) (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments Andrea wrote: "Hi Jessica

I think 1 Peter 1:2, read in the original KJV, clarifies it for us: God's foreknowledge let's Him be able to predestinate, and Romans 8:29 (also in original KJV) beautifully backs it up..."


Hi Andrea,

Great point!
God definitely did foreknow US. Biblically, "knowing" someone means a loving and intimate personal relationship. It doesn't mean He only foreknew something ABOUT us (like that we would choose to believe) it means He chose to foreknow US. That's also why in Jesus' parable, He says "depart from me, I never knew YOU." (Even though they asked for salvation).


message 16: by Andrea (new)

Andrea Yearwood Exactly! I completely agree with the concept of intimacy. The Greek word for 'knew' in Matthew 7:23, to which you refer Nathan, definately speaks of a very intimate relationship. And you are correct, you can know a lot about someone, yet not know them intimately. It's just like the way we spend 8 -12 hours a day with our co-workers. We know lots of things about them, but at the end of the day (end of the world), only one person comes home with us. That's the one we're married to, that's the one we know and who knows us intimately! It's the same for Christ and His Bride. There are lots of people in many places and in many siuations who know ABOUT Christ but there are fewer still who really KNOW Him or are KNOWN by Him.
God Bless


message 17: by Nathan (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments Being known or unknown by God that gets to the heart of the method in which we are saved. Are we an effective agent in our salvation, or is God the only effective agent?
[Mathew 11:25-27 ESV: 25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.]

Several times, Scripture uses the history between Esau and Jacob to illustrate this truth.
[Hebrews 12:16-17 ESV: 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.]


message 18: by Nathan (new)

Nathan Chattaway | 184 comments I've been asked via PM to clarify what I mean by saying Jesus also used parables as an instrument of His own crucifixion. The gospel scriptures explain in several places that Jesus was dealing with the Jewish leaders in parables and that they did not understand. In John 10, we see Jesus speaking to "some of the Pharisees" use a parable about Himself and his sheep. v6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. It is this that prompts the Jews to ask "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. " Jesus answered them "I told you and you do not believe...even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may KNOW AND UNDERSTAND that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." The Pharisees saw Jesus claims to be God only as blasphemy, for which the Law prescribed death by stoning. They could not grasp that Messiah was not come to restore Israel's national sovereignty by overthrowing Rome with natural power. This fear prompts the high priest Caiaphas to declare "You know nothing at all. Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." Caiaphas didn't say that of his own accord but as high priest (representative of National Israel) he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation.
It's not that they didn't understand Jesus was popular and represented a threat to their tenuous position under Roman rule, but that they never knew nor understood the truth of what Messiah was come to achieve.
A key piece of evidence used against Jesus at his trial was the misunderstood parable from John 2:18-22. After Jesus had cleansed the Jewish temple the Jews challenged him: "What sign do you show us for doing these things?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days?" When therefore he was raised from the dead, his DISCIPLES remembered that he had said this, and THEY BELIEVED...


message 19: by Werner (new)

Werner | 2268 comments Thanks for the clarification, Nathan; that's helpful.


message 20: by Werner (new)

Werner | 2268 comments There are a substantial number of serious books, by Christian New Testament scholars, dealing just with Jesus' parables, or with some of them. The only one of these that I've actually read and can recommend from personal experience, though, is Finding the Lost: Cultural Keys to Luke 15, by Kenneth E. Bailey (Concordia, 1992). It's been some 25 years since I read it, and I've never gotten around to posting a review of it here on Goodreads (though I did review it in the November 1993 issue of The Christian Librarian) although I hope to soon; but I was impressed with it.

Dr. Bailey is also the author of Poet and Peasant, and Through Peasant Eyes: A Literary-Cultural Approach to the Parables in Luke, which is actually an omnibus volume of two of his earlier works. I haven't read that one, but I'm guessing it would probably be well worth reading as well.


message 21: by Werner (new)

Werner | 2268 comments Here's the link to my newly-posted review of Finding the Lost, the book I mentioned in the preceding comment: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... .


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