Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - Intro and Parts 1 & 2

[Rafael]

There's a story about Odin disguised as a human to evaluate how good the humans are. I don't remember anymore the details but he find good treatment from a elderly couple and he does not what he want to do, I am not sure what he will do, maybe he was looking for a reason to not destroy the humans.

[Ian]

Kerstin wrote: "much like the proliferation of novels after the original Star Wars trilogy ..."

I'm going off on a tangent here, indulging the slightly nerdy side of my personal interests.

The post-Chretien Grail romances (in various languages), taken as a body, may most nearly resemble unauthorized "fan fiction" for both Star Wars and various television series: most notably, in my experience, for "Star Trek" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," although there are a great many others.*

These new stories don't have to agree with each other, and in some cases take considerable liberties with the originals -- the "canon" -- for the entertainment value of the changes, not ignorance.

*For another example, there is a LOT of fan-fiction online for the manga/anime serial "Inuyasha," about a half-demon in pre-Tokugawa (Warring States) Japan and a modern Japanese girl magically transported to his time. I've sampled a bit of it, and some years ago was really impressed by "Sharibet's" crossover "Buffy the Youkai-Slayer," which added two American Vampire-Slayers to the mix of good demons, bad demons, and a whole clan of demon-slayers (see https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1659851/...)

At least one of the professionally published "Star Trek" books also contains cross-over fiction, which in other contexts would be considered fan fiction. Barbara Hambly's "Ishmael" (1985), another time-travel story, for example, works in several western series, mainly "Here Come the Brides" -- which provides a major sub-plot, and several main characters -- but also, in cameos, "Have Gun, Will Travel," and "Bonanza." "Dr. Who" also wanders through the story, in -- if my memory is correct -- two of his incarnations. (The implied logic seems to be that if you time travel in a television series, you will wind up in another television series. Larry Niven did a series of time-travel fantasy stories on a similar premise.)

("Ishmael" ran into trouble after initial publication, because it turned out that some of the permissions to use the other characters were not obtained in a timely manner. But it is available. See https://www.amazon.com/Ishmael-Star-T... and https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1... )

[Ian]

Rafael wrote: "There's a story about Odin disguised as a human to evaluate how good the humans are. I don't remember anymore the details but he find good treatment from a elderly couple and he does not what he wa..."

Odin is notoriously amoral.* In one non-Eddic poem, we are flatly told -- by a newly dead king just arrived in Valhalla -- that "Balder's Father has broken faith; we will keep our weapons at hand."

That side of his personality wouldn't have stopped Odin from judging the behavior of others, of course.

You may have in mind "Grimnismal," in which Odin visits a king who disposed of an older brother in order to inherit the throne, apparently on the advice of the elderly couple who had sheltered them when they were stranded as children.

King Geirrod, who is otherwise suitably generous with food for guests, is tricked into thinking that the visiting Odin -- who is going by the name Grimnir -- is a hostile wizard, and starves and tortures him accordingly. With, of course, fatal results for the King.

Another possibility is "Rigsthula," in which Heimdall (according to an introductory prose note: but possibly originally intended to be Odin) under the Irish-sounding name of Rig (king), visits a series of couples, all of whom offer hospitality according to their means. He begets a prototypical human on each woman, each child bearing a name designating a future social status, from Slave to Noble. A grandson of the wandering god becomes the original King.

*If not worse.

Tolkien once characterized him -- with excellent foundation in the Old Norse texts -- as "the Goth, Necromancer, Glutter of Crows, Lord of the Slain." Odin seems to have been a prototype for Sauron, aka The Necromancer in "The Hobbit," and, in his more folk-lorish role as leader of the Wild Hunt, perhaps for the Lord of the Nazgul.

It is probably not a coincidence that both Sauron and Odin are represented as having a single eye.

On the other hand, some of Odin's other traits, like wandering around as an old man in gray (or gray-blue -- there are a problems with Old Norse color words), wearing a broad-brimmed hat that shadows his eyes, are bestowed on Gandalf. And Saruman gets into the picture too, as Gandalf's smooth-tongued double, who deals with kings, and not ordinary people (or Hobbits).

[Rafael]

Ian wrote: "Rafael wrote: "There's a story about Odin disguised as a human to evaluate how good the humans are. I don't remember anymore the details but he find good treatment from a elderly couple and he does..."

You could be (and probably are) right. I don't remember well what I read some years ago about this matter. I guess he was testing people's hospitality, as you all are discussing about this matter I thought I could comment with this story. When I commented was very late and I was sleepy so this is the reason why my comment was so dull. Probably who wrote the book which I read mixed some stories. It was mostly Rigsthula with bits of Grimnismal as exposed by you.

[Ian]

Rafael wrote: "I don't remember well what I read some years ago about this matter...."

You weren't too far off: at least your comment looked familiar.

I went to check my recollection of the Elder Edda with the Andy Orchard translation (Penguin), to be sure of which incident you had in mind, and found that things didn't quite fit your comment.

The danger of trusting Odin is pointed out in all the adult books on Norse Mythology I've read, including the line of early skaldic verse, and in primary sources like "Hrolf Kraki's Saga," and the Latin History of the Danes of Saxo Grammaticus. That was an immediate recollection.

As was the Tolkien quotation, which translates a group of Odin's by-names and epithets -- possibly arranged thus in the Prose Edda. But I don't want to go searching Snorri Sturluson's endless lists of different ways of referring to Odin in order to find a match. (For one thing, small differences in translation are a source of confusion.)

[Rafael]

Oh, great to know! Thank you for clarify my bad memory (or my wrong source).

[Ian]

Cynda wrote: "Is the Green Knight a wodwo or the king of the wodwos? A mention is made of wodwos in Part..."

That's an ingenious idea -- the Green Knight representing a sort of parallel "wild" court in contrast to Arthur's perhaps overly "civilized" one. It would make for a really interesting story.

But now that we've moved on to parts three and four, and are probably out of "spoiler" territory, I feel free to observe that it misses the mark.

"Wodwose," however, has an interesting history. It first appears, as "wudu-wasa" (forest dweller) in Old English glosses on Latin, where it interprets "faun" or "satyr" -- a classical "hairy man of the wild." Unfortunately, we know nothing of any Anglo-Saxon traditional equivalent.

This basic information (including the wuduwasa spelling) is from the J.R. Clark-Hall "A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary," fourth edition, with a supplement by Herbert D. Merritt, Cambridge U.P., 1960 (first edition 1894). This offers "wood-wose" as more recent equivalent. The on-line edition of the earlier nineteenth-century "Anglo-Saxon Dictionary" by Bosworth and Toller includes Latin originals and Middle English examples, and offers:

"A satyr, a faun Satiri, vel fauni, vel celini, vel fauni ficarii unfǽle men, wudewásan, unfǽle wihtu, Wrt. Voc. i. 17, 20. Satyri vel fauni unfǽle men, ficarii vel invii wudewásan, 60, 23-24. Wudewásan faunos, Germ. 394, 242. [Sumwhyle wyth wodwos he werreȝ, þat woned in þe knarreȝ], Gaw. 721. A vestoure wroȝt full of wodwose, and oþer wil."

(Clark-Hall apparently uses a normalized spelling, since the texts cited used wude- instead of wudu-.)

Unfortunately the modern "Dictionary of Old English" has yet to reach "W."

The word probably wasn't a scribal coinage to explain the Latin, though, since it survived into Middle English, and so presumably had some vernacular usage. (There *are* a lot of compounds with "elf" which seem to have been created to translate Classical names of types of nymphs, like "dryad" and "oread.," but I haven't seen citations of Middle English examples. However, Tolkien made free use of them in "The Hobbit," in place of the Elvish names he had already created, although this is obscured a bit in later editions.)

There is a general European tradition of hair-covered "wild men of the woods," seen either as madmen or as a sort of uncivilized community, including women, sometimes represented in seasonal celebrations by mummers in hairy (or grassy) costumes. They sometimes show up as shaggy-haired "supporters" of coats of arms. Wikipedia has a good article, with useful illustrations, on "Wild man." See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man

The most comprehensive single study (included in its bibliography) is probably still Richard Bernheimer's "Wild men in the Middle Ages" (Cambridge, Harvard University Press, 1952).

And the heraldic usage leads us to a prominent, although not very obvious, appearance in modern English literature. The English family name Woodhouse, used in Jane Austen's "Emma," does not mean "wooden house" or "house in the woods" as one might suppose, but apparently is a modernization, or corruption, of "wood-wose." In real-life instances, it would once have had reference to such "supporters." (Not that Jane Austen would have known that, of course.)

Much more conscious of the connection, although harder to spot, is the appearance of "Woses" in "The Lord of the Rings" ("The Return of the King," Book Five, chapter 5) as a remnant of the "prehistoric" population of part of Rohan, living in the Druadan Forest, and properly called the Druedain. One is specifically described as "a wild woodman."

(I've seen the Druedain described as "Wood-woses," and thought I remembered reading it there, but I can't locate that form in a digital "Lord of the Rings," so I'm not quoting it as Tolkien's own usage.)

[Rafael]

I guess you are right, Ian. I read The Lord of the Rings exclusively in portuguese, but when I started to read your post I remembered of the druedain. As I said, I only read it in portuguese but the portuguese translation is the same as I would translate "Wood-woses". Druedain means, in sindarin, "wild human (human individual)".

[Alexey]

When I first read retailing of this story in my teens, I had two questions. At this time I still have them:
Green Knight left only one clue how to find him - a green chapel. As far as I know, a story usually goes like that hero start the quest asking everybody about this chapel until he meets somebody who knows. But Gawain first asked this question after a long journey in nowhere and a day of rest. Is it strange or I just do not familiar enough with this kind of literature?
The second question (it is like the first) - doesn't rule of hospitality demand that the host said his name and guest inquired about it? I do not expect a real name, but at least knight of... or lady of something.

[Christopher]

I'm a little behind, having decided late what version to read.

Actually, I still haven't decided.

But I noticed something re-reading that I had missed before:

Agravayn a la dur mayn-- what a "handle." Can I change my name from Donut to Agravayn a la dur mayn? It's like "DMC in the place to be" or "Downtown Julie Brown."

[Tamara]

Alexey wrote: "As far as I know, a story usually goes like that hero start the quest asking everybody about this chapel until he meets somebody who knows. But Gawain first asked this question after a long journey in nowhere and a day of rest. Is it strange or I just do not familiar enough with this kind of literature?..."

In Part 1, the Green Knight tells Gawain that the location of the Green Chapel is well known, and he’ll find it easily enough if he looks for it:

As the knight of the green chapel many men know me;
therefore, if thou strivest to find me, thou shalt never fail.

And then in Part 2, when Gawain enters the wilderness of Wirrel, he asks if anyone knows the whereabouts of the Green Chapel. But no one had heard of the green knight or his chapel. So he has to stumble around on his own until he arrives at the castle.

He kept all the isles of Anglesey on the left side,
and fared over the fords by the forelands,
over at the Holy Head,
till he again took land in the wilderness of Wirrel.
There dwelt but few that loved either God or man with good heart.
And ever as he fared he asked of men that he met
if they had heard any talk of a green knight of the green chapel
in any spot thereabout, and all nicked him with nay,
that never in their life saw they any man of such green hue.

Alexey wrote: "The second question (it is like the first) - doesn't rule of hospitality demand that the host said his name and guest inquired about it? I do not expect a real name, but at least knight of... or lady of something."

I think it is fairly typical of the rules of hospitality that you feed a guest and make him comfortable before raising questions about identity. We see a lot of that in Homer, for example. The host conceals his true identity from Gawain until the end because that is all part of the ruse. If he revealed it early on, Gawain may have realized he had fallen into a trap.

I hope this helps.

[Christopher]

Reading along in Fytte Two.

Hmm. A shield with a pentangle?



Versus a green giant?

[Alexey]

Tamara wrote: "Alexey wrote: "As far as I know, a story usually goes like that hero start the quest asking everybody about this chapel until he meets somebody who knows. But Gawain first asked this question after..."

Thank you! It turns out that I am a very unobservant reader. I am glad that there are people who can help.

[Cynda]

Ian wrote: "Cynda wrote: "Is the Green Knight a wodwo or the king of the wodwos? A mention is made of wodwos in Part..."

That's an ingenious idea -- the Green Knight representing a sort of parallel "wild" cou..."

Thanks Ian. I was hoping someone would respond. Right not a satyr or faun. The Green Knight is something grander and clearly immortal. Thanks again.

[Ashley]

Christopher wrote: "Reading along in Fytte Two.

Hmm. A shield with a pentangle?



Versus a green giant?

"

I'm right there with you, Donut! from Fytte 1: "for many marvels had they seen, but such never before."
In my head Marvel is capitalized :)

[Cynda]

Ian wrote: "Cynda wrote: "Is the Green Knight a wodwo or the king of the wodwos? A mention is made of wodwos in Part..."

That's an ingenious idea -- the Green Knight representing a sort of parallel "wild" cou..."

Hello Ian.
To continue our discussion.
It is possible that the Green Knight is/is based on wodwos. I am reading from Simon Armitage's translation. In the Acknowledgememts, Armitage says that he found his wife's Tolkien and Gordon edition, so he perused it, and found the word "wodwo."

Here are some possibly telling images.

Two Green Knight images which show the spectrum of what the Green Knight has been envisioned as looking like:

csis.pace.edu/grendel/projs992d/index...

villians.wikia.com/wiki/Green_Knight

One image of a wodwo that is not a satyr or a pan, but more like a yeti (like the first image above):

dunn.wikia.com/wiki/File:Wodwos.png

Final (for now) Analysis? Green Knight could be and lrobably is wodwo-like.

[Chris]

I just got this out of the library and completed part 1. I did not read any of these comments until I completed that, so I was quite surprised by the beheading. And then Whoa! The body kept moving and picked up the head and then the head started talking...cue the Twilight Zone music! I have to admit with Gawain being a more gentle soul, I thought he would find a way to meet this challenge without shedding blood, like cutting off the Green Knight's hair. I know I can be to hopeful at times for finding non-violence as a way to solve problems or win the game!
I appreciated the intro, thanks Tamara & David. Reading the first comment which has the synopsis of part 1, it sounded as if the reader knows that the Green Knight is challenging someone to behead him. I did not interpret "strike" as beheading & thus my surprise. What am I missing?

As the poet begins to set up the tale I believe it is line 30
"If you will listen for a little while to my lay I shall tell it as I heard it.." Lay? Was this another word for story?

I found reading this out loud helped the flow of the poem for me and made it more immersive. Perhaps my 19 y/o cat wasn't so appreciative of my rendering!

[Chris]

Cphe wrote: "Is it from this that the tale of the headless horseman originates?"

That thought crossed my mind also, in addition to the head in A Christmas Carol. Which is its own transformative challenge, quest or journey story.

[Chris]

David wrote: "David Tamara wrote: "What, if anything, does his entrance into the wilderness represent?"

If the green in the Green Knight symbolizes nature, then I suspect one man going alone into the wilderness..."

I've always thought in stories that has the MC go into the wilderness in search of whatever, that the wilderness was like going into the darkness and achieving one's goal brings you back into the light. Goodness vs. evil. In all these allusions to Christ, I can see it as a parallel to Christ's wandering in the wilderness and staying true against the temptations of Satan. Perhaps that sticks in my mind as I just recently finished The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe!

[David]

Chris wrote: "Lay? Was this another word for story?"

I found this:

lay
noun - a short lyric or narrative poem meant to be sung.
 literary
 a song.
 "on his lips there died the cheery lay"

Origin - Middle English: from Old French lai, corresponding to Provençal lais, of unknown origin.

[Chris]

David wrote: "Chris wrote: "Lay? Was this another word for story?"

I found this:lay
noun - a short lyric or narrative poem meant to be sung.
literary
a song.
"on his lips there died the cheery lay"

Origin -..."

Thanks!!

[Tamara]

Chris wrote: "I've always thought in stories that has the MC go into the wilderness in search of whatever, that the wilderness was like going into the darkness and achieving one's goal brings you back into the light...."

I think that's a good way of putting it.

You enter it alone and without the support structure and/or constraints of society. In a manner of speaking, you enter it naked.

It may be a battle of good vs. evil, as you mentioned. But it could also be an internal battle of ignorance vs. knowledge. Your emergence into the light corresponds to your increase in knowledge, especially self-knowledge.