House of Chains the team not the BR, Year 2!

[Mel]

Also, sorry, but this is my pet peeve in the fantasy community. Let's not pretend that somehow sexist tropes are intrinsic to the fantasy genre, or that contemporary fiction is somehow free of them. If you were to "translate" a problematic fantasy story into a modern setting, the problems would remain. It's not the setting that is sexist. It's the writing.

And I don't want to read contemporary books. I like fantasy. Although I realize it was no one's intention, by saying, "They should write contemporary books," it basically tells readers like myself that we don't deserve better fantasy, and should go somewhere else.

[Mel]

Choko wrote: "This is why I loved the Daughter of the Empire series - extremely patriarchal society, women are just for sex and procreation, and still our main character plays the system so she could live up to her potential."

That said, I have Daughter of the Empire on my TBR list, and I hope when I get to it I enjoy it as much as you did.

[Siobhan]

Melissa wrote: "Also, sorry, but this is my pet peeve in the fantasy community. Let's not pretend that somehow sexist tropes are intrinsic to the fantasy genre, or that contemporary fiction is somehow free of them..."

I totally agree in terms of fantasy there's no need for sexism in writing. And that contemporary fiction can be just as sexist too if it's bad writing.

I think Veronica was meaning more Historical fiction, where the sexism is part of the plot not how the author writes.

I haven't read any Kay yet so can't comment on him! But he comes highly recommended by Laura so I will defo give him a shot.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Melissa wrote: "I think we already discussed this point in The Summer Tree thread, but I still heartily disagree. Writing in a fantasy world does not excuse you from sexism...."

Being sexist no it doesn't. Displaying sexism because it did and still does exist, yes it does. Just because somebody writes about sexism, racism, anti semitism, homophobia.........doesn't mean they condone it.

If the author just writes about women being subservient and all the women blindly\stupidly go along with it without a clue, without even a single strong female character than said author is a moron.

[Sha]

I think, more often than not, sexism in historical fantasy is used to add atmosphere than it is to serve any actual plot purpose. And I'm sorry, but I think The Summer Tree was for the most part very much in that category. Even setting aside the sheer stomach-churniness of Jennifer's end of book plotline (rape as a story element can of course be done well, but it rarely is when it's a vehicle for a more important part of the plot) she spent most of the book being an very much an object of everyone's affections- her beauty and attractiveness being her primary character trait. Add to that the casual and absolutely pointless random objectification and sexual encounters by that one guy whose name I can't remember who was with the warrior people and- well. It's sexist tropes. It makes me uncomfortable and leaves me, personally, unimpressed. It doesn't mean I'm calling the book itself sexist, and it doesn't mean I'm negating or ignoring the genuinely interesting high preistess plotline by the other female main character. It just means I'm very tired of sexist tropes being put into books without more significant exploration, and I'm definitely tired of them being given a pass because historical accuracy.

In one of the writing excuses episodes, Mary Robinette Kowal talks about writing Of Noble Family, the final book in the Glamourist Histories series. It's a book told from the point of view of upper class white gentry, set in a Carribean island where the pov character is part of the resident slaveowner family. Kowal notes that writing such a clearly problematic setting is meant that she made sure that none of the characters of color were bit characters/spear carriers, and everyone got an arc or role, however small. When I went back and read the book again after listening to the podcast, I went "oh" because that made such a small but significant difference in the atmosphere the book created.

I'm not saying that all books need to be hyper-aware of these things, obviously. That would be prohibitively hard for many types of stories. But for me personally, all the little background bits add up to a lot, and it sometimes bothers me more than it seems to bother others (it works the other way around too - I shrug off things others get really irritated about) which ends up with me being you know- catty. :D

[Mel]

A belated thanks to you guys for engaging in the topic. I meant to come back with thoughtful commentary, but work has been leaving my brain drained. I appreciate everyone's ideas though. Critique the media you love and all that.

Scott, I think you and I are in agreement, but just to quibble on semantics, I'd argue most people who write about sexism are feminists, and most people who write about racism are anti-racists, etc. Books like The Handmaid's Tale that highlight rape and abuse are part of the feminist canon, for example.

Sha, I think you got it just right though about sexist tropes as window dressing. And I agree that the use of such tropes doesn't mean there weren't other good parts of the book I enjoyed. The Summer Tree just happened to have some of those I have the least tolerance for, like "men being rewarded with sex while women are punished with it." I like the example you shared of writing from the POV of slaveholders, and addressing the difficulties in depicting that setting. If an author is writing about slavery, then yeah, I hope they are doing their homework and being intentional in their depictions.

[Mel]

BTW, how was everyone's July?

Despite the crazy work schedule, summer has put me back in the reading mood. While I don't read as much as many others, for comparison's sake, it was more than my first 5 months combined.
January-May: 45.6 points
July: 65.3 points

I think the highlight this month for me was The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet. I loved the character-centric story, and we've had a nice discussion going on in the thread as well. :)

[Siobhan]

Wow Melissa! So many points in July! Go you :D
July has actually been one of my best months too apparently! It's flown over though, crazy.

[Charlie]

Melissa wrote: "BTW, how was everyone's July?

Despite the crazy work schedule, summer has put me back in the reading mood. While I don't read as much as many others, for comparison's sake, it was more than my fir..."

I've had a cracking reading month this month too, I definitely think the summer vibes are making me happy and wanting to read. Well done on all those points, that's great!

ALWTASAP was also the standout book for me this month. I'm still thinking about it!

[Sha]

"sexism as window dressing" huh? That's nicely put. I think I'll keep that in mind the next time this bothers me.

ALWTASAP is such a good book. I also really, REALLY liked the sequel (possibly more than ALWTASAP), but I haven't gotten around to reading the third one yet.

[Jessica]

Nice job Melissa! That's great (and a decent amount of points)! My reading has slowed down a lot the last two months (work got super crazy and my dog was sick, he somehow picked up Giardia... ugh)

I did get to read some really good books to make up for my lack of numbers though. Finally got around to reading Vita Nostra and it was amazing! Definitely one of my new favs.

For a non fantasy I also read The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs: A New History of a Lost World which was a ton of fun.

I really need to read ALWTASAP I keep seeing you guys talk about how good it is! Maybe when I get paid next week I'll try to fit in a trip to the store

[Anni]

Oh, I hope your dog is doing better! And you really should pick up ALWTASAP, it's such a great book :)

[Jessica]

He's doing a lot better, thanks :) He took a while to bounce back (he's 14, so he's pretty old, and a big dog), but now he's back to his old cute self.

I'll for sure pick up ALWTASAP next time I'm out. I still haven't really seen anything bad about it. I'm excited to check it out

[Sha]

//raises hand

I'm almost sure I asked this last year but I've forgotten and also I'm not sure if the same rules apply. I've been trying to stick to collected volumes but some of the comics I read only come in individual 25 page issues. Can I add that to the books read tally?

[Jessica]

Sha wrote: "//raises hand

I'm almost sure I asked this last year but I've forgotten and also I'm not sure if the same rules apply. I've been trying to stick to collected volumes but some of the comics I read ..."

Pretty sure you can add them to the tally, just have to mark them as graphic novels

[Sha]

Thanks. I think I may have mixed this up with other competitions and gotten confused about what goes wherw

[Yanique, Thread Master]

I'm officially in the 1K points club! Woohoo!!!

We're the first team with two people over 1000 points, so I'm counting that as a win.

[Hailee]

Yanique wrote: "I'm officially in the 1K points club! Woohoo!!!

We're the first team with two people over 1000 points, so I'm counting that as a win."

Yay, go team!! Congrats Yanique

[Siobhan]

Yanique wrote: "I'm officially in the 1K points club! Woohoo!!!

We're the first team with two people over 1000 points, so I'm counting that as a win."

Wooo! Well done, Yanique!!

[Mel]

Woot! Way to go Yanique!

[Yanique, Thread Master]

Thanks friends!!!!

[Jessica]

Yanique wrote: "I'm officially in the 1K points club! Woohoo!!!

We're the first team with two people over 1000 points, so I'm counting that as a win."

Woot! That's awesome!

[Charlie]

Yanique wrote: "I'm officially in the 1K points club! Woohoo!!!

We're the first team with two people over 1000 points, so I'm counting that as a win."

That's amazing! Congratulations!!

[Barry]

Congrats Yanique!

[Zaara]

And how fare the Nazgul??
This for everyone…
(view spoiler)[

(hide spoiler)]
I just wanted to come here for Melissa (Sendai)…and say I am using the old LPQ threads, Mel and while I liked reading everyone’s thoughts I am especially enjoying your posts…beautifully done + I like the way you think + the fact that you made painstaking notes and posts for everyone. Appreciated, even after all this time. Gotta love the people who do so much for us.
Also...woots for Yani!

[Mel]

Aw! Thanks Zaara! <3
I'm flattered that you read all those comments, and came over here especially to say so. It's always fun when you get something like the Long Price Quartet where you can sink your teeth in and discuss topics like free will. One of the best things about reading with others is that it inspires closer reading and more thoughtful reflection. At least that's often the case for me.

I hope we can do another BR together sometime!

[Zaara]

Melissa wrote: "Aw! Thanks Zaara! <3
I'm flattered that you....[]....
I hope we can do another BR together sometime!
"

In that case...I hope you really will consider coming and reading the Mists of Avalon with Shaitarn and me (and hopefully Shae)...I know you love Celtic fantasy from our ooooold, old Sevenwaters chats...and this is an easy book to find, also fairly chunky = lots of things to talk about.
We start in three or four days. Say you;ll come!
My other upcomings are Priory of the Orange Tree and The Left Hand of God + sequels, Dune and then NOS4A2.

[Olivia]

Hello everyone, work has dumped me into a never ending spiral of not reading because I just couldn't focus...

now to update the spreadsheet!

[Charlie]

I hope you get back on the reading wagon Olivia! I've been feeling a bit slumpy these last two weeks, struggling to concentrate on books for more than a few minutes at a time. I hate it when this happens.

[Mel]

Zaara wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Aw! Thanks Zaara! <3
I'm flattered that you....[]....
I hope we can do another BR together sometime!
"

In that case...I hope you really will consider coming and reading the Mists ..."

Oooh, The Mists of Avalon! A Celtic read with members of the Sweaters Gang!? I want in on this so badly. ╭(✪д✪)و ̑̑　

Yeesh, but I'm also super behind in my other BRs due to being distracted by life and romance novels. Let's see if I can catch up by this weekend. Thanks for inviting me!

[Olivia]

Charlie wrote: "I hope you get back on the reading wagon Olivia! I've been feeling a bit slumpy these last two weeks, struggling to concentrate on books for more than a few minutes at a time. I hate it when this h..."

I overloaded myself with reads as well and then just felt guilty whenever I picked up the wrong book :(

[Mel]

Olivia wrote: "Charlie wrote: "I hope you get back on the reading wagon Olivia! I've been feeling a bit slumpy these last two weeks, struggling to concentrate on books for more than a few minutes at a time. I hat..."

Tell me about it. Totally cheating on my BRs with 3 or 4 side hustles. >_<;; The thing is, is that I love all the books that I'm in the middle of. They're all good. It's just that the pull of smexy Victorian man-love is too strong for me to resist. ˚‧º·(˚ ˃̣̣̥⌓˂̣̣̥ )‧º·˚

Have you at least been enjoying the other books you've picked up?

[Zaara]

Melissa wrote: "Zaara wrote: "Melissa wrote: "A..."

I really like how you can make those really detailed emojis....
Smexy Victorian man love? Oh...uhhh...😍 lemme just go check out your current reads....been ages since I read any romance...
There's so much out there I get paralysed and never really pick anything unless it comes vetted and recommended. Usually by Sha, Manju and Kari.

[Olivia]

Yes, Melissa, I have. But thanks to such stressful work have been a bit meh about reading and more just put my feet up with Netflix.

[Sha]

Smexy Victorian man love is surprisingly irresistible. I have devoured many. //wise nodding

Hi Zaara. :3

[Mel]

Zaara wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Zaara wrote: "Melissa wrote: "A..."

I really like how you can make those really detailed emojis..."

I cheat because a lot of them are pre-programmed into Japanese phones and computers. But if you just search for kaomoji you can find all sorts of pages with the more elaborate faces that you can copy and paste. 顔文字(kaomoji) literally just means "face characters" vs. 絵文字（emoji) which are "picture characters."

[Mel]

Olivia wrote: "Yes, Melissa, I have. But thanks to such stressful work have been a bit meh about reading and more just put my feet up with Netflix."

I know how that goes. It comes in waves, but sometimes you're more in the mood to unwind with a show or a movie vs. a book. I hope you've found some good ones. :)

[Mel]

Sha wrote: "Smexy Victorian man love is surprisingly irresistible. I have devoured many. //wise nodding

Hi Zaara. :3"

Hehehe, I've been reading a bunch of K.J. Charles and noticed you've read pretty much all of them as well. It looks like the unofficial Naughty Book Club hasn't been active for some time, but if you're ever interested in starting one up again, I think we could probably find quite a bit in common. :P

[Zaara]

Sha wrote: "Smexy Victorian man love is surprisingly irresistible. I have devoured many. //wise nodding

Hi Zaara. :3"

Hello Sha sweetheart...welcome back...where WERE you? Missed you...and I'm not just saying that..left a couple of shoutouts...tho they were months apart...we should read something ducal or slutty (or both) together RIGHTAWAY.
😈 Suggestions?
Or shall we finally be available for that Courtney Milan BR we kept tantalising each other with but never made happen?

(view spoiler)[

(hide spoiler)]

😂😂😂
At last, I got The Duchess War and Unveiled...mainly thought of you...lemme know...

Melissa wrote: "Hehehe, I've been reading a bunch of K.J. Charles and noticed you've read pretty much all of them as well. It looks like the unofficial Naughty Book Club hasn't been active for some time, but if you're ever interested in starting one up again, I think we could probably find quite a bit in common. :P "

Hmmm...I would join this BR immediaetly if it happened.
Thanks for the kaomoji tip, Melissa!

I never trust myself to choose romances because with my Great Ghastly Bad Taste, I immediately veer towards the most horrid selections.
Here is just one example...last year I finally decided to dip my toe into PNR and everyone was recommending Nalini Singh and sooo...I chose (with my #perfect logic) the only NS that weren't committing to a full series...I chose *snort* Lord of the Abyss...which was a romance about (view spoiler)[a beast primce in a :O carapace falling for the prophesied one and saving the kingdom from Uuuultimate Dddoom *ba dum tisssh* (hide spoiler)]...but I swear...I never could feel the book because I kept visualising the gross China Mieville spoilers Iaim posted for Beste ten thousand years ago...those images 😂 revolted me so much they was seared onto my eyelids...series of man/woman with mandibles and sprouted limbs and other assorted gross stuff who were also wearing military clothes (I can literally feel @Margret shuddering...haha Marge 😂😂😂 it happened!)... so yea...totally killed any romance the book mighta conjured. I always felt I didn't do NS or that poor Lord of the Abbyss any justice or favours...but how to touch/kiss anything with a exoskeleton? And then he might suddenly make those creepy insecty scraping and clicking sounds...
Virginie put me in this train of thought...she and I are being grossed out together today...😜😝...and I (view spoiler)[have bombed her with ghastly Ed Sheeran photolyrics...soooooon she will see them...mwaaaahaahaaa... (hide spoiler)]

Sorry @Sha and @Melissa...I AM silly today...

[Sha]

@Melissa
I like KJ Charles very much. :3 She's a solid writer and I haven't found a book of hers that I've disliked yet. Cat Sebastian is another decent primarily m/m author, although her books are more hit or miss for me. I'd also rec Salt Magic, Skin Magic purely on the strength of the opening scene and the talking salt. //no idk why i'm doing random recs i think my brain is on the fritz again

@Zaara
I was here! ...Technically. I just have a tendency to vanish from forums when I'm stressed. I've been zombied for most of the year- couldn't even do buddy reads.

I AM game for a Milan read though. Whenever you want it is fine, because I'm grumpy and being very bitchy at books so reading something I already know I like would be great. Heh.

I don't think I've ever read proper PNR, come to think of it. Wait, maybe Ilona Andrews' Edge books count? Otherwise it's all more like Urban Fantasy. Where do we draw the line between UF and PNR anyway? Genres are so complicated.

series of man/woman with mandibles and sprouted limbs and other assorted gross stuff who were also wearing military clothes
...I might actually be interested in that. I should check it out.

I haven't read Nalini Singh either. I could join you for a book if you want? :D No promises on me liking things though- like I said, I've been crankier than normal.

:3 it's good to see you.

[Sha]

Question: I read a book twice this year- once in January and once in September. Can I add it twice, or just once?

[Sha]

Question: I read a book twice this year- once in January and once in September. Can I add it twice, or just once?

[Mel]

Sha wrote: "@Melissa
I like KJ Charles very much. :3 She's a solid writer and I haven't found a book of hers that I've disliked yet. Cat Sebastian is another decent primarily m/m author, although her books are..."

Random rec away! Always appreciated, although in this case I already just added it to my tbr a few days ago. Probably either because I saw it in your feed, or because I saw mention that K.J. Charles edited it, and that fans of hers would appreciate it.

I've never read Courtney Milan, but she's also on by TBR list and I'd be glad to pick up some of hers to try out.

I also haven't really read PNR... the only one that comes to mind is Robin McKinley's Sunshine. That one is pre-Twilight, and so I imagine distinct from the style that developed in the later glut of vampire novels. Since I'm also not big on urban fantasy, I think I'd need a solid rec before diving into that genre.

[Zaara]

Sha wrote: "I AM game for a Milan read though. Whenever you want it is fine, because I'm grumpy and being very bitchy at books so reading something I already know I like would be great. Heh."

Then let's start the Duchess Wars immediately...I know it's one of your favourites...let's revive the Feel Good thread, ok?? I'm starting right away...and you...you can easily recoup some those BR points you (almost) lost on Queenslayer...you are within the two week time window so you can still make those points if you comment on that thread...as Siobhan were sayin'....

[Zaara]

Melissa wrote: "Random rec away! Always appreciated
[...]
I've never read Courtney Milan, but she's also on by TBR list and I'd be glad to pick up some of hers to try out.
[...]
I also haven't really read PNR...
[...]
Since I'm also not big on urban fantasy, I think I'd need a solid rec before diving into that genre."

😂😂😂...re PNR recos...Sha and I can't really...heh...Melissa meet IAIN...I think he's read oh only a few hundred of them...
And also...as you can see Sha & I are just starting an impromptu (and yet looooong in the offing) C. Milan BR...on the Feel Good Books thread. It will be my first too!

Come join!!

[Siobhan]

Sha wrote: "Question: I read a book twice this year- once in January and once in September. Can I add it twice, or just once?"

Defo twice! :)

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

I read a book in July last year, and again in August for a complete series re-read... definitely count it twice, just add it again on the sheet...

[Sha]

@Melissa
UF series tend to be really long in general so I'm struggling to come up with recs which don't require a commitment to a bookshelf's worth of books. Heh. I suppose some of Seanan McGuire's shorter series might work? But Indexing is probably very taste specific and Sparrow Hill Road is basically an expansion of another series. I think I need to think more about this one... Most of what I'm coming up with are YAish.

Also I second Zaara. You should join us for a Milan read!

@Zaara
Milan books are always faves. :3 it's possible my tastes have changed over time though. I can start once I'm done with the current superhero story. I don't know why I'm reading two superhero stories. It's not really one of my go to genres too many disappointments.

@siobhan, Iain;
Thanks~ that's a relief because otherwise it's 400 pages that would have been lost.

[Sha]

Also Zaara I love Duchess War but I also love Unveiled so either one would be fine~

[Zaara]

Sha wrote: "Also Zaara I love Duchess War but I also love Unveiled so either one would be fine~"

Well Sha...I already started The Duchess War before I saw this post...what an endearing Author's Note (😜 I read it first)...and also refreshing... you don't expect to see a discussion on sociology, genetics and chess in a period romance...
We can read both if you want, Sha...come along when you finish your superhero story...I'm much slower...you'll soon catch up...unless you want me to wait...but I already read the first couple chapters...