"China Mountain Zhang" Full Discussion *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Thanks for waiting! Okay, so what did you think?

[Mareike]

I'm not done yet, but I like how mundane it is.

One thing that gave me pause yesterday was that it's another sf book with a deeply homophobic society. I assume that the book is very much a child of it's time in this, but I guess it once again drives home the need for positive, hopeful LGBTQ representation in the genre.

[Tomislav]

I finished my re-read a couple of days ago and think very highly of the book, as well as McHugh's three other novels.

Over on the no-spoilers thread, there has been some talk about the way the novel works on a personal level, rather than being a story of characters that confront and change the established order of the world that has been created. Absolutely true - I think that's one of the things I liked about it. McHugh discusses China Mountain Zhang, and that very topic, in the transcript of a talk given to Philadephia SF Society that can be found at https://web.archive.org/web/201408080...

[Anna]

I was going to start Jade City, but instead I started rereading Zhang. I love it as much this time. But, since you mentioned her other books Tomislav, do you have a recommendation for which one to try next?

[Cheryl]

Oh that's brilliant. Thank you, Michael.
Now I have to find out what 'anti-SF' is.

[Tomislav]

Anna wrote: "I was going to start Jade City, but instead I started rereading Zhang. I love it as much this time. But, since you mentioned her other books Tomislav, do you have a recommendation for which one to try next?"

I think my favorite of her other novels would be Nekropolis, as there she does some interesting things with the ideas of deliberate personality modification, artificial intelligence, and slavery. Something about the tone of the writing reminds me of China Mountain Zhang. On the other hand, recommended for fans of Ursula LeGuin, I found Mission Child to be very similar to a Hainish universe novel.

[Tomislav]

Cheryl wrote: "Oh that's brilliant. Thank you, Michael. Now I have to find out what 'anti-SF' is."

Probably you meant that for me... I think it's just a term McHugh made up for that talk, meaning a work that contains some SFnal tropes, but is different from the common perception of science fiction. However, in my mind, this is a type of SF, not anti-SF.

[Anna]

Thanks Tomislav! Nekropolis was originally higher on my TBR for no particular reason, so maybe I'll stick with that one as my next McHugh. Although Mission Child does sound like something I'd enjoy right now. I hope to eventually get to both.

[Cheryl]

Tomislav wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Oh that's brilliant. Thank you, Michael. Now I have to find out what 'anti-SF' is."

Probably you meant that for me... I think it's just a term McHugh made up for that talk, meaning ..."

Yes I did mean you. Tired old eyes made your avatar look like a different one.

Thanks, I'm thinking you're right. She was speaking of continuing efforts to keep the genre fresh & expansive, to avoid getting mired in tropes and expectations, I think. Something like that. I guess I am too tired, sorry.

[Anna]

I reread the Baffin Island chapter last night, and I think it's one of my favorite chapters of all time. Seemingly nothing much happens, but there's so much going on! I already talked about this earlier in the year, how I love the thrilling sense of being at the mercy of nature. Zhang spending so much time on the ice alone, not knowing what he's up against, I love it! And of course I knew he was going to make it, but I still felt anxious when he fell into the lead. And although I prefer autumn to summer, I still wouldn't want to live without any sunlight for months!

And now from the mercy of nature in the Arctic to the harsh conditions on Mars!

[Mareike]

Anna wrote: "I reread the Baffin Island chapter last night, and I think it's one of my favorite chapters of all time. Seemingly nothing much happens, but there's so much going on! I already talked about this ea..."

That chapter was superb! Absolutely perfect.

I just finished the chapter titled "Three Fragrances" and that was deeply, deeply unsettling. My alarm bells were shrilling from the moment she met Bobby for that date. McHugh really captured what it's like to be out with a manipulator.

[Alex]

I'm not finished (I'm at 83%) but I had to post here.

The chapter about San Xiang.

“And I cry and I cry until I go to sleep and no one ever comes.”

Had to stop reading. I related to her before, but so much more now. This quote, in particular, hurts. It’s my life.

I couldn't bring myself to pick up the book today, but I will finish it. It's superbly written, even though I'm not sure if there's an over-arching plot between the individual lives.

[Mareike]

Alex wrote: "I'm not finished (I'm at 83%) but I had to post here.

The chapter about San Xiang.

“And I cry and I cry until I go to sleep and no one ever comes.”

Had to stop reading. I related to her before..."

I hope you're holding up okay!

That line hit me hard, too. I need a break now. Might even need to read something different before I try to sleep (it's almost midnight here and I just got home after a weekend of traveling).

One recurring theme seems to be that you always take yourself with you, no matter where you go or what external changes you make. And that ultimately, you have to find a way to live with yourself.
And also the idea that "we can never go back".

[Alex]

@Mareike I'm fine. I'm always fine. I agree -- no matter where you go, you bring yourself with you. Unfortunately, or not, I suppose. I think I need to finish reading just to see if there's a positive outcome for her. If there isn't...

Ugh.

[Dawn F]

I'm about halfway and am completely gripped. Thematically, the storytelling, the writing style, everything is amazingly well excecuted. I was a bit put off in the beginning of Zhang's personality, he's quite racist and judgmental, even homophobic (probably learned behavior from the society he lives in) but I see now he is supposed to be unsympathetic as he is clearly being taken on a journey of personal development through the book.

I have one question, though. I thought he couldn't go to China to study because he wasn't fully Chinese. He says so in the first chapter, that even if he went there on a pro forma marriage, his true lineage would be discovered and he wouldn't pass the entrance test. But now he just had to work for a year to earn credit and he can get a scholarship after all? Did I misunderstand something?

[Mareike]

Dawn wrote: "I'm about halfway and am completely gripped. Thematically, the storytelling, the writing style, everything is amazingly well excecuted. I was a bit put off in the beginning of Zhang's personality, ..."

It's really good, isn't it?

I wondered about Zhang going to China, too, but I think the fact that he was able to go is connected to him spending time on Baffin Island. I think if he had applied to University "normally", he would have had to do all of those tests, which he feared would reveal that he was genetically manipulated to look Chinese. But because he did that highly dangerous job, he got preferential treatment where the University is concerned, so I assume part of that is him not having to undergo the testing?
But I don't think it was necessarily explained in so many words, so that's just my assumption.

[Tomislav]

Dawn wrote: "I have one question, though. I thought he couldn't go to China to study because he wasn't fully Chinese. He says so in the first chapter, that even if he went there on a pro forma marriage, his true lineage would be discovered and he wouldn't pass the entrance test. But now he just had to work for a year to earn credit and he can get a scholarship after all? Did I misunderstand something?

In the future of the book, American-born Chinese can be admitted to university in China, but admission of non-Chinese "foreigners" is very rare. Zhang knew that the required genetic testing would reveal him to be only half Chinese, and so he would be outed as a foreigner and not eligible as Chinese.

Before he took the job on Baffin Island, Zhang was unaware of the special incentive that a foreigner could become eligible for admission to university in China by staying for two contracts. Having nothing better to do, Zhang studied and became a good student. Some admissions officer somewhere is aware of his genetic status, but he is not disqualified for such slot. And once there, because he appears Chinese, he is not discriminated against as a foreigner.

I assumed that because the author lived and studied in China, that her depiction of Chinese racism was a realistic extrapolation to an era of Chinese global dominance. There is a great deal of discrimination based on appearance - Zhang was genetically modified by his parents to look fully Chinese - San-Xiang's face was surgically modified and regrown by her parents to conform to ideals of Chinese beauty.

[Anna]

I reread 'Ghost' last night and it was one of the chapters I was dreading reading again. It broke my heart even more this time, and it was interesting seeing how it all played out, knowing the outcome. Zhang finally finding friendship and feeling in love after such a long time being completely alone, and then losing everything again. And Haitao's pain is so hard to read about. Through Alexi in the next chapter we see a Zhang who (in my mind) seems completely dedicated to his work/studies, and closed off to the world. Who rocked him and rubbed his back when he was hurting alone in Nanjing, with no one to talk to?

I've been trying to take this reread slowly, but I think I might have to finish it tonight.

[Mareike]

Tomislav wrote: "Dawn wrote: "I have one question, though. I thought he couldn't go to China to study because he wasn't fully Chinese. He says so in the first chapter, that even if he went there on a pro forma marr..."

Thanks for explaining that, Tomislav. I was too tired/distracted this morning to remember it that clearly.

I agree that McHugh extrapolated based on today's conditions in China. Though I also think she looked to the past and contemporary United States and reversed some of the conditions she found there. Both the racism and the particularities surrounding, for example, university admissions, seem to be a mixture of both techniques, with some added future technology (DNA testing, etc.).

Anna wrote: I reread 'Ghost' last night and it was one of the chapters I was dreading reading again. It broke my heart even more this time, and it was interesting seeing how it all played out, knowing the outcome.

Absolutely. That chaper is what prompted my first post. Even on the first read, it becomes so apparent what is going to happen and it's painful to watch it unfold. (There's a similar dynamic in "Three Fragrances". McHugh is really really good at creating this kind of suspense.)

[Dawn F]

Tomislav wrote: "Before he took the job on Baffin Island, Zhang was unaware of the special incentive that a foreigner could become eligible for admission to university in China by staying for two contracts. Having nothing better to do, Zhang studied and became a good student. Some admissions officer somewhere is aware of his genetic status, but he is not disqualified for such slot. And once there, because he appears Chinese, he is not discriminated against as a foreigner. "

Alright, thanks. Zhang did elaborate on it on later pages, it just took a while so I was confused for a bit :)

[Jamesboggie]

I am 75% through, and liking it more as it progresses. How would people describe the writing? I am finding it easy to analyze the story and setting, but not the writing itself.

[Alex]

Jamesboggie wrote: "I am 75% through, and liking it more as it progresses. How would people describe the writing? I am finding it easy to analyze the story and setting, but not the writing itself."

I think I described it at one point as "snapshot-style," but that's more indicative of the narrative style rather than the writing style. The writing itself I find very descriptive and personal. Not particularly emotional, but the POVs are so well written you can't help understanding how the characters feel in their given situations. Is "perspective-driven" a good term for it?

[Oleksandr]

I finished it a few days ago and it was an uneven book for me: definitely a well-done prose, but I'm spoiled with good prose from the 19th century, so this doesn't really astonishes me - maybe because I'm if SF more after ideas than style.

Zhang storyline was strong but others a tad predictive - the famous Chekhov's gun in every story - you have kite flyers - dangerous sport - there most certainly will be death/accidents; a women on Mars starts with that she doesn't care for children (out of blue) and then meets a girl, whom she'll protect... the story of suddenly beautiful but naive girl, is again tragic but you can see it coming...

[Cheryl]

Usually I don't like predictability, either. But I didn't feel as if we were reading tired tropes here. Imo, we were exploring the universality of themes. Even in this new world, we can't escape human nature. We carry our Mythos with us, wherever we go.

[Cheryl]

From my review:

Watch how everything kinda sorta comes together, but not really, just like real-life.

Pay attention to all the gritty details of this extrapolated alternative future (sure, some things the author got wrong, but everything certainly seems plausible from her perspective in 1992)... it's not really a dystopia, but fans of same might like it too....

The epigraph by Albert Camus is apt: "A simple way to get to know about a town is to see how the people work, how they love, and how they die."

[Alex]

Cheryl wrote: "Usually I don't like predictability, either. But I didn't feel as if we were reading tired tropes here. Imo, we were exploring the universality of themes. Even in this new world, we can't escape hu..."

Agreed. Everything changes... but nothing does.

[Mareike]

Cheryl wrote: "Usually I don't like predictability, either. But I didn't feel as if we were reading tired tropes here. Imo, we were exploring the universality of themes. Even in this new world, we can't escape hu..."

Yes!
She also, at least for me, managed to keep the suspense up. Yes, I could tell what's coming, but I couldn't look away. Also because the characters were believable.

[Oleksandr]

Cheryl wrote: "Usually I don't like predictability, either. But I didn't feel as if we were reading tired tropes here. Imo, we were exploring the universality of themes. Even in this new world, we can't escape."

Yes, I agree - this is certainly true. My problem with it was most likely due to the fact that there are periods when I don't care much for the universality of themes.

As a side note, after reading the book I decided to explore the situation with LGBTQ+ rights in China: officially homosexuality in criminal law were removed in 1997. In 2001, the Chinese Society of Psychiatry declassified homosexuality as a mental disorder. So the change took less than a decade since the book was written and it doesn't mean that societal prejudices are over

[Monica]

Oleksandr wrote: " - you have kite flyers - dangerous sport - there most certainly will be death/accidents; a women on Mars starts with that she doesn't care for children (out of blue) and then meets a girl, whom she'll protect... the story of suddenly beautiful but naive girl, is again tragic but you can see it coming..."

For me the stories didn't boil down the way you characterized them. The kite flier story was not about the accident, it was about adjusting after your life has been upended. The Martian colonist story was not about becoming a mother, but how people band together to survive/thrive and the "suddenly beautiful" story was not about a naivete due to being suddenly beautiful. The character had not developed a social adeptness needed to exist in the world. In my view her "sudden beauty" was incidental, not causal. Idk, there was not a trope overload for me. I think Cheryl captured it. "We carry our mythos with us, wherever we go." And through that mythos, we receive the stories differently ...I guess ;-)

[Oleksandr]

Monica wrote: "For me the stories didn't boil down the way you characterized them. The kite flier story was not about the accident, it was about adjusting after your life has been upended."

I afraid I made my statement a little to simple. I don't imply that each story has only one message and it is known in advance. I meant that the expected storyline was generally followed, with some unexpected bits in the process.

Let's take a look on the Martian colonist - me it reminded of The Dispossessed but with much darker streaks - from the Great Cleansing Campaign to the fact that people are hypocrites and cannot say, "yes, people are unequal and we cannot just draw straws who will go to the project". However, it moves to a simplification - the father appears to be a good coder (better than any other in this little community) - a bit of fairytale for me. I'd prefer to see how would the story go if he desperately tried to repair (to show that he is needed) and broke that milking apparatus instead...

[Mareike]

Oleksandr wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Usually I don't like predictability, either. But I didn't feel as if we were reading tired tropes here. Imo, we were exploring the universality of themes. Even in this new world, we ..."

I looked into LGBTQ rights in China, too. Hence why I said the novel seems to be a child of its time in how homophobic the society we see is. This was no doubt also influenced by attitudes in US society, which have changed significantly since the book was published.
Which, ultimately, is also why I think it's fair to wonder why the novel doesn't imagine a more hopeful future. Though I do have the benefit of hindsight there, of course. (I seem to remember a similar discussion with regard to Rosewater.)

[Gabi]

I liked it a lot. Zhang was such a real character, utterly believable and I could connect so deeply with his emotional state. His POV chapters I thoroughly enjoyed. Especially Baffin Island and Ghost were oustanding.

Another plus for me was the structure of the novel. The various parts that interconnect only in small details drew the picture of a convincing future society with Chinese standards as the higher goal. No great action, no society changing plot, just little glimpses into the lives of powerless people. This worked terrific for me.

What I loved most was the writing style. Those crisp sentences that brought across so much. So much emotion, so much insight - fantastic!

[Dawn F]

Same same same! Especially agree with the writing style and I LOVED that it had such a micro focus. It wasn’t anything grand scale happening, it was life through the eyes of a few characters at ground level. The action took place on the inside of the characters, in their minds and their emotions. Beautiful.

[Mareike]

Gabi wrote: "I liked it a lot. Zhang was such a real character, utterly believable and I could connect so deeply with his emotional state. His POV chapters I thoroughly enjoyed. Especially Baffin Island and Gho..."

Agreed!

[Rose]

It took me a while to get into the story, because, well, I guess I was hoping for an adventure of sorts! Throughout the first 50%, I kept wondering, 'when's it gonna start? what's the hook here?' so as such, I was finding myself kind of dissatisfied with the sort of aimless wandering of Zhang.

But then the Baffin Island chapter happened, and oh boy. That was gorgeous. Zhang's mixture of despair and determination with regards to his studies and his life felt so true to me, because I've been continually going through the same emotions of 'I've just gotta get through this, and then I can really begin my life.' for the last few years.

I was kinda disappointed with the writing style at first - it felt very clipped and emotionless, but again, with that Baffin Island chapter that all changed for me.

"And the second night is not so bad, never as bad as the first. I have survived. And I think, finally, I am adapting."

Lovely and melancholy.

Anyway, I ended up really loving this book. It didn't quite feel like a futuristic society until we got to the chapters with the flyer narrator, and Martine on Mars. The introduction of those more futuristic elements really helped to solidify that this was a society in the future, and not just an alternate-timeline earth.

[Cheryl]

Is anyone going to look for more by the author?

[Anna]

I read Nekropolis after my Zhang reread, it was almost as good. Very different though, but I really enjoy McHugh's writing style. I'm going to read the other two novels eventually, but I don't want to overdo it by devouring everything in one gulp. I might even read the short fiction collections, if and when I'm back in a short fiction mood.

And I'm going to order physical copies of all of her books, and donate them to my library. There isn't a single McHugh book to be found in a library in the Helsinki area, which is truly a crime.

[Mareike]

I'm intending to check out Nekropolis at some point. Might also give the other novels a try eventually.
But like Anna, I don't want to overdo it. Also, there's too much other stuff that I've been meaning to get to for too long.

[Paul]

Just finished this book. It started out as okay and worth reading, quickly moved up to very good, before blowing me away in the last few chapters.

[Dawn F]

@Paul It was somewhat the same for me, started out dubious, then ended up bowled over!

[Dawn F]

Nekropolis is the one book I want to read and can’t find as ebook or audio. Will have to get a physical this time, then!

[Anna]

Dawn, that's strange. If I go to Amazon, and her author page, and click on Kindle editions, I see all except Mission Child, which isn't available as an ebook at all I think?

[Dawn F]

Ah yes, sorry, I mixed them up, it’s Mission Child I can’t find, and the one I am most curious about reading, obviously.

[Anna]

I admit I would've jumped on Mission Child immediately had it been available as an ebook! It's easier to calmly say I'll wait a bit before jumping into the next McHugh, when you have to wait for the physical book to be shipped to you from some used book store on the other side of the globe :D

[Dawn F]

Haha true! And speaking of I just ordered it used on Amazon UK marketplace, at least that’s not the other side of the world for me :P

[Anna]

That's where I'm getting it too, but it says it ships from the US.

[Dawn F]

They do have American sellers on their as well, but my seller’s shop had a UK address so I assume they’re sending it from the UK. I guess I’ll know if I get an import tax invoice in the mail.

[DivaDiane]

I’ve read Nekropolis, which I remember liking a lot, but I remember very little of it, surprisingly. Well, I did read it about 29 years ago... I have mission child on my shelves, unread as well, but must get cracking on China Mountain Zhang. I totally forgot about this group read and forgot to bring it along to Italy. It’ll have to wait until I get back home. 😬

[Larry]

I liked it.

I really enjoyed how, for the most part, almost every chapter seemed to encompass or touch upon a different or unique theme; I imagine, if okay with that sort of structure, people would extract very different experiences from the book. I found the chapters on the communal society deviating from the ideal of individuals being equal, the passing of Zhang’s love interest in China who wanted to avoid persecution, and the final chapter to be very impactful.

That being said, even though I liked it, I’m not entirely sure how I feel having finished this one. The broad theme of navigating society as an undesirable “other” (be that based on race or sexual orientation) was consistently sad and difficult at points. I also do not feel that I fully comprehended the importance or meaning in the discussion around history being a non-linear complex system that is sensitive dependent—the classroom discussion. I feel that was an attempted allegory at summarising Zhang’s journey; but if that’s the case, how much of Zhang's journey was self-determined, and how much was Zhang a passive chess piece? Still thinking on it.

[Christopher]

I rated this one 4 stars. Overall I think it did a great job of immersing the reader in a possible future world in a way that was almost in the background to the everyday lives of the characters. It was like a novella about Zhang (whose stories I also found to be strongest) surrounded by a few short stories about other characters he crosses paths with. I thought the weakest story was the one with the first date that turns into an assault.