A Game of Thrones
question
Spoiler (only read if you've finished book 1)
Lisa
Aug 17, 2014 11:13AM
If you had to blame only one character, who was essentially the cause of Ned Starks death, who would you blame?
@Jean, hm good points. Thanks.
@jason it's a discussion about book 1 so it should be glaringly obvious that people are going to comment on the content of book 1. I recommend reading the book first, then discussing that way you're much less likely to come across spoilers.. Because it's kind of hard to discuss a book without mentioning what actually happens in it
@jason it's a discussion about book 1 so it should be glaringly obvious that people are going to comment on the content of book 1. I recommend reading the book first, then discussing that way you're much less likely to come across spoilers.. Because it's kind of hard to discuss a book without mentioning what actually happens in it
As for proof of Littlefinger's involvement, there is some anecdotal evidence, which seems to be all GRRM is in the habit of offering when it comes to his conspiracies.
For instance, the hints offered during Tyrion's talk with Varys during ACOK:
“I does seem my sister was telling the truth about Stark’s death. We have my nephew to thank for that madness.”
“King Joffrey gave he command. Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn Payne carried it out, swiftly, without hesitaiton…”
“Almost as if they had expected it.”
It is true that Ilyn Payne and Janos Slynt executed Ned without a second thought - whereas Cersei, Sansa, Varys, and all others who were present seemed shocked or surprised by the decision. And then Varys says this, as a follow-up to his infamous riddle about where power truly resides:
“Who truly killed Eddard Sark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or… another?”
Tyrion cocked his head sideways. “Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?”
Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less… A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”
A very small man? Sound like Littlefinger, emphasis on the "little"? And his reputation in King's Landing for exercising influence that is far in advance of his actual position is legendary. His reasons for doing so would be pretty obvious - get Ned out of the way so he could move on Catelyn. And it's very easy to see him whispering in Joffrey's ear about how he needed to kill Ned to set an example and show strength coming out of the gate.
For instance, the hints offered during Tyrion's talk with Varys during ACOK:
“I does seem my sister was telling the truth about Stark’s death. We have my nephew to thank for that madness.”
“King Joffrey gave he command. Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn Payne carried it out, swiftly, without hesitaiton…”
“Almost as if they had expected it.”
It is true that Ilyn Payne and Janos Slynt executed Ned without a second thought - whereas Cersei, Sansa, Varys, and all others who were present seemed shocked or surprised by the decision. And then Varys says this, as a follow-up to his infamous riddle about where power truly resides:
“Who truly killed Eddard Sark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or… another?”
Tyrion cocked his head sideways. “Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?”
Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less… A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”
A very small man? Sound like Littlefinger, emphasis on the "little"? And his reputation in King's Landing for exercising influence that is far in advance of his actual position is legendary. His reasons for doing so would be pretty obvious - get Ned out of the way so he could move on Catelyn. And it's very easy to see him whispering in Joffrey's ear about how he needed to kill Ned to set an example and show strength coming out of the gate.
Oh, Matthew, we were kind of getting along again, and you go justifying domestic violence again... *sigh* I won't even go there this time.
To Lisa: Perhaps you could change the title to "SPOILER - do not read if you didn't finish the first book" or something in that sense? Personally, I don't read threads of books I didn't finish, but I understand if others want to.
To Lisa: Perhaps you could change the title to "SPOILER - do not read if you didn't finish the first book" or something in that sense? Personally, I don't read threads of books I didn't finish, but I understand if others want to.
Laura wrote: "Oh, Matthew, we were kind of getting along again, and you go justifying domestic violence again... *sigh* I won't even go there this time.
To Lisa: Perhaps you could change the title to "SPOILER -..."
Ugh, noooo, I'm not justifying domestic violence, and I never was. Certainly not anymore than you were justifying Cersei's murderous behavior or her incessant narcissism, as you claimed. I'm just asking people to remember that Cersei is not a victim. She was a terrible person long before being married to Robert. And Robert, despite all his flaws, was not a monster. They are both human characters and both bear responsibility for their actions.
To Lisa: Perhaps you could change the title to "SPOILER -..."
Ugh, noooo, I'm not justifying domestic violence, and I never was. Certainly not anymore than you were justifying Cersei's murderous behavior or her incessant narcissism, as you claimed. I'm just asking people to remember that Cersei is not a victim. She was a terrible person long before being married to Robert. And Robert, despite all his flaws, was not a monster. They are both human characters and both bear responsibility for their actions.
@joshua, I thought everyone on here had already read book 1.. Sorry, I guess some of you are still in the middle of reading it..
@gary Robert wouldn't put Ned in danger on purpose though, I don't think.. But I get what you mean. Ned's family/friends made selfish or stupid decisions that proved fatal but they weren't to know.
@Matthew @Laura I would love to read POV of Littlefinger, I think he is a lot more involved
Lisa wrote: "Robert wouldn't put Ned in danger on purpose though, I don't think.. But I get what you mean. Ned's family/friends made selfish or stupid decisions that proved fatal but they weren't to know."
Yup. Sometimes your friends are your worst enemies....
Yup. Sometimes your friends are your worst enemies....
Gary wrote: "Here's kind of a dark horse candidate for responsibility for Ned's death: How about Robert Baratheon? After all, Robert is connected to all the causes of Ned's execution:
1. He's brutal to Cersei..."
I know you're arguing this in a "devils advocate" fashion, but I would contest it on all points. For one, Robert was not brutal to Cersei. He mistreated her for sure, but she was rather horrid to him as well throughout their marriage. And she and her brother were already having an affair before the marriage, ever since they had hit puberty in fact.
Second, Cersei's actions weren't in "self-defense", they were to protect her ambitions for the throne. Had Robert discovered her incest, he would have been forced to put her aside, not harm her, because of his need to maintain the alliance with House Lannister. And, just an editorial, I think he would have been happy to be rid of her, even if it did mean enduring the embarrassment of being cuckolded (for once!)
Third, the reason he asked Ned to become Hand was because he wanted someone he knew he could trust advising him. This was symptomatic of the culture of King's Landing, where everyone was conniving and had their own agenda.
Fourth, he got drunk because Lancel Lannister was plying him with very strong wine to ensure that he would have an accident. This was Cersei's plan all along, as a prelude to a move on the throne. She wasn't forced into doing it, she had been planning it all along.
So really, Robert's actions alone cannot be held as the reason for Ned's death. Him being in King's Landing just presented Cersei and her Baelish with one more obstacle, which they dealt with in the same fashion as the others.
1. He's brutal to Cersei..."
I know you're arguing this in a "devils advocate" fashion, but I would contest it on all points. For one, Robert was not brutal to Cersei. He mistreated her for sure, but she was rather horrid to him as well throughout their marriage. And she and her brother were already having an affair before the marriage, ever since they had hit puberty in fact.
Second, Cersei's actions weren't in "self-defense", they were to protect her ambitions for the throne. Had Robert discovered her incest, he would have been forced to put her aside, not harm her, because of his need to maintain the alliance with House Lannister. And, just an editorial, I think he would have been happy to be rid of her, even if it did mean enduring the embarrassment of being cuckolded (for once!)
Third, the reason he asked Ned to become Hand was because he wanted someone he knew he could trust advising him. This was symptomatic of the culture of King's Landing, where everyone was conniving and had their own agenda.
Fourth, he got drunk because Lancel Lannister was plying him with very strong wine to ensure that he would have an accident. This was Cersei's plan all along, as a prelude to a move on the throne. She wasn't forced into doing it, she had been planning it all along.
So really, Robert's actions alone cannot be held as the reason for Ned's death. Him being in King's Landing just presented Cersei and her Baelish with one more obstacle, which they dealt with in the same fashion as the others.
Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I believe that too. I think this is the most GRRM ever gives the readers when it comes to all his "whodunnit" scenarios. Only indirect hints, the rest we are forced to construe ours..."
Dammit, I knew you'd say that :) And it's true, he did reveal that the plot came from Lysa and Baelish. But we also know Pycelle ordered it, and that he did it (presumably, I'll admit) because Cersei "ordered" him to. Well, not exactly ordered, but you know the rest...
Dammit, I knew you'd say that :) And it's true, he did reveal that the plot came from Lysa and Baelish. But we also know Pycelle ordered it, and that he did it (presumably, I'll admit) because Cersei "ordered" him to. Well, not exactly ordered, but you know the rest...
Ned stark dies? Thanks for that, everyone!
Oh i would love to have some Litlefinger POV - just for the sake of creepiness! And plus: GRRM would vent all of his hair-brained ideas out on what really happened in some events.
And to make things better, you go back to adjudicating me things I didn't say, things I insisted many times I wasn't saying! Oh well, yet another thread to leave...
Laura wrote: "And to make things better, you go back to adjudicating me things I didn't say, things I insisted many times I wasn't saying! Oh well, yet another thread to leave..."
Jeezus, Laura, let's not get into that again, please! And if you read what I wrote closely, you'll see that I said that you DIDN'T say that. In other words, I was NOT justifying Robert's abuse, just as you were NOT justifying Cersei's actions. See how that works? It's me establishing a parallel, not attributing (I think you mean to say this, not adjudicating) words you didn't use.
And no offense, but it was you who were attributing things this time. You claimed I was justifying abuse when all I said was that Robert wasn't brutal to Cersei and she was a bad person too. You hated it when I said you trying to put Cersei's behavior into context was justification. Are you the pot and I the kettle?
Jeezus, Laura, let's not get into that again, please! And if you read what I wrote closely, you'll see that I said that you DIDN'T say that. In other words, I was NOT justifying Robert's abuse, just as you were NOT justifying Cersei's actions. See how that works? It's me establishing a parallel, not attributing (I think you mean to say this, not adjudicating) words you didn't use.
And no offense, but it was you who were attributing things this time. You claimed I was justifying abuse when all I said was that Robert wasn't brutal to Cersei and she was a bad person too. You hated it when I said you trying to put Cersei's behavior into context was justification. Are you the pot and I the kettle?
Sure, I may have misunderstood you, so please enlighten me. Matthew said: "For one, Robert was not brutal to Cersei. He mistreated her for sure, but she was rather horrid to him as well". Explain me how beating up his wife was not being brutal to her. Especially considering that Robert knew nothing about anything we know of her.
In the same way that I say that Cersei was both a criminal and a victim (unlike your unidimensional view of her), you could acknowledge that Robert is, as well, both a brutal husband and a victim of Cersei's... hum... nagging? Now, seriously, what did she actually do to him and that he knows of that makes you think that beating her up is not being brutal to her?
The difference between our arguments, Matthew, is that I NEVER said that Cersei DID NOT commit crimes or that she wasn't a terrible person. On the contrary, I keep saying the opposite. I did, indeed, put her actions in perspective, but never denying the other part. But you actually DID say that Robert was NOT brutal to her. That is different. You are not saying "Yes, he was brutal, but...". I repeat it: "Robert was not brutal to Cersei. He mistreated her for sure, but she was rather horrid to him as well..." and that sounds to me like "beating her up is not being brutal, and she had it coming anyway".
Now, whether one can consider Robert a monster or not, that depends. For me, a man who beats up his wife and orders the murder of innocent children could qualify. Robert was also other things, besides a monster. He was also a rebellious hero and a loyal friend. He actually hoped that Ned helped him get back in track. He didn't know that Ned would be a bad hand (loyal and honorable, but ineffective as hand).
Of course, a few factors were brought together to cause Ned's death, but if we have to pin it to just one person... I still suspect Littlefinger.
In the same way that I say that Cersei was both a criminal and a victim (unlike your unidimensional view of her), you could acknowledge that Robert is, as well, both a brutal husband and a victim of Cersei's... hum... nagging? Now, seriously, what did she actually do to him and that he knows of that makes you think that beating her up is not being brutal to her?
The difference between our arguments, Matthew, is that I NEVER said that Cersei DID NOT commit crimes or that she wasn't a terrible person. On the contrary, I keep saying the opposite. I did, indeed, put her actions in perspective, but never denying the other part. But you actually DID say that Robert was NOT brutal to her. That is different. You are not saying "Yes, he was brutal, but...". I repeat it: "Robert was not brutal to Cersei. He mistreated her for sure, but she was rather horrid to him as well..." and that sounds to me like "beating her up is not being brutal, and she had it coming anyway".
Now, whether one can consider Robert a monster or not, that depends. For me, a man who beats up his wife and orders the murder of innocent children could qualify. Robert was also other things, besides a monster. He was also a rebellious hero and a loyal friend. He actually hoped that Ned helped him get back in track. He didn't know that Ned would be a bad hand (loyal and honorable, but ineffective as hand).
Of course, a few factors were brought together to cause Ned's death, but if we have to pin it to just one person... I still suspect Littlefinger.
Laura wrote: "Sure, I may have misunderstood you, so please enlighten me. Matthew said: "For one, Robert was not brutal to Cersei. He mistreated her for sure, but she was rather horrid to him as well". Explain m..."
Interpret my comments however you want, Laura. But it would seem awfully hypocritical of you to do that considering how angry you got whenever you said I was doing it to you. And once again, I've not once endorsed Robert's treatment of Cersei. All I want is for people to remember she is not a victim who's turned evil because of abuse, but an already evil person who happened to be abused.
Also, your "unidimenionsal" appreciation (you really like that word, huh?) seems to be totally inconsistent. You've said repeatedly that Cersei's motivation comes from her being treated badly, which is itself very unidimensional. You've made no allowances for the fact that she's been a terrible person her whole life, or that her marriage to Robert only made her worse. You ascribed it all to how other's treated her and nothing else.
The only time you've ever tried to take the multi-dimensional outlook was in dismissing the idea that Robert's behavior was due to Lyanna's death. And it seems obvious the only reason you did that is because you don't see him as a sympathetic character and don't want to believe he's motivated by heartbreak. So let's not pretend you have a complex appreciation, that's just an argument you employ when it suits your prejudices.
And for the record, Robert ordered the death of ONE child, that being Denaerys's unborn infant. But he also rescinded that order when he was on his deathbed. He did NOT order the deaths of the Targaryen babies, they were ordered by Tywin Lannister and presented as a gift to him. Cersei, on the other hand, ordered the death of all Robert's bastards, including the babies. So if that makes him a monster, she's certainly worse.
On the rest, we agree. Petyr Baelish is the one responsible.
Interpret my comments however you want, Laura. But it would seem awfully hypocritical of you to do that considering how angry you got whenever you said I was doing it to you. And once again, I've not once endorsed Robert's treatment of Cersei. All I want is for people to remember she is not a victim who's turned evil because of abuse, but an already evil person who happened to be abused.
Also, your "unidimenionsal" appreciation (you really like that word, huh?) seems to be totally inconsistent. You've said repeatedly that Cersei's motivation comes from her being treated badly, which is itself very unidimensional. You've made no allowances for the fact that she's been a terrible person her whole life, or that her marriage to Robert only made her worse. You ascribed it all to how other's treated her and nothing else.
The only time you've ever tried to take the multi-dimensional outlook was in dismissing the idea that Robert's behavior was due to Lyanna's death. And it seems obvious the only reason you did that is because you don't see him as a sympathetic character and don't want to believe he's motivated by heartbreak. So let's not pretend you have a complex appreciation, that's just an argument you employ when it suits your prejudices.
And for the record, Robert ordered the death of ONE child, that being Denaerys's unborn infant. But he also rescinded that order when he was on his deathbed. He did NOT order the deaths of the Targaryen babies, they were ordered by Tywin Lannister and presented as a gift to him. Cersei, on the other hand, ordered the death of all Robert's bastards, including the babies. So if that makes him a monster, she's certainly worse.
On the rest, we agree. Petyr Baelish is the one responsible.
Hello, all. I'm new to the discussion; in reading, I'm about halfway through "A Storm of Swords" and in watching, just finished Season 3. (So I'm not caught up on either books or the TV series, but steeped in both. Alas, that sometimes means that I'm not sure on what's shown in one vs. the other--not that I've known them to directly contradict each other, ever, but certainly they take turns fleshing out each others' stories.) Just found this discussion and have too much I want to write when I should be going back to sleep.
Re: the original question: Lisa, I've always said Littlefinger. I'm convinced that he set Ned up--not only for the immediate betrayal of his execution, but farther back. Ned was unable to flee the city after he was ambushed by Jaime Lannister and his men, when Ned was injured and his own men were killed coming out of Littlefinger's brothel. Anybody think that Littlefinger didn't send a message to Jaime and/or Cersei when Ned arrived?
Laura, I don't believe Littlefinger ever loved Catelyn. Lusted after her, sure. Wanted to marry her or Lysa in order to become a member of the Tully clan and improve his own social status, absolutely. Probably other things that I haven't noticed, or that haven't yet been revealed. But as I understand the term "love," it's not something Littlefinger is capable of. He's a sociopath.)
Back to causes of Ned's death: Joffrey, but as, well, efficient cause rather than final cause, for those who use such language. (Ser Ilyn Payne/Janos Slynt are formal cause? Or do I have this backward? Too long since I studied philosophy.) Whoever was pulling his strings, and I'm betting on Littlefinger most directly, Joffrey is a child. A spoiled, crazy, and yes, evil child--but the adults around him, Cersei especially, get a lot of the blame for that.
Yes, Ned was more honorable than sensible. That doesn't (again, in my book) mean he's to blame. I also disagree with the statement that he wouldn't have warned Cersei if he'd known about Bran. He doesn't warn Cersei because he likes or respects her, but because he thinks/knows that Robert would have had the children killed if he knew that they were Jaime's children rather than his own. Ned really, really objects (more power to him!) to killing children; look at his reaction to the planned assassination of Daenerys, although he knows the danger she poses.
While I'm at it: somebody said that Ned didn't know Cersei was capable of treason. Huh? I'm assuming that the "treason" you were thinking of was the execution/murder of Ned, which (this really isn't hair-splitting, I think) is wrong and evil but not treason. However, her ongoing sexual relationship with Jaime after her marriage, let alone bearing his children and passing them off as Robert's, would be treason for a queen, certainly under English law--cf. the accusations against Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard--and so far as I can tell under Westeros law and custom.
Matthew: you say that Cersei was evil before she married Robert. If it's possible without spoilers (beyond, as I said, halfway through Book 3), can you tell me what you're basing that on? I am not for a minute forgetting her incestuous relationship with her twin; but I'm odd enough to think that that isn't evil. It pushes all sorts of ICK! buttons for me, don't misunderstand. But does it actually hurt anybody (before she was married to Robert, I mean)?
Gary: Cersei didn't turn to her own brother because of Robert's behavior to her; Cersei and Jaime had a relationship, either fully sexual or stopping just short enough of that that she was technically a virgin at her marriage--I think the former but am not sure--long before Robert and Cersei married. [Oops, Matthew already said this. I'm leaving it in anyway.]
Matthew again: I have to disagree also with "Robert isn't brutal to Cersei." Though I wouldn't disagree with "Cersei was horrid to him too." He hit her, and probably other things not spelled out, but she was certainly verbally abusive to him. And, again, she was arguably unfaithful to him. ("Arguably" only because it comes up somewhere or other that he never completed a sexual act with her--so that I think you could argue that Robert and Cersei were not technically married, which puts the infidelity question in a somewhat different light.)
OK. I must get some sleep before time to go to work.
Re: the original question: Lisa, I've always said Littlefinger. I'm convinced that he set Ned up--not only for the immediate betrayal of his execution, but farther back. Ned was unable to flee the city after he was ambushed by Jaime Lannister and his men, when Ned was injured and his own men were killed coming out of Littlefinger's brothel. Anybody think that Littlefinger didn't send a message to Jaime and/or Cersei when Ned arrived?
Laura, I don't believe Littlefinger ever loved Catelyn. Lusted after her, sure. Wanted to marry her or Lysa in order to become a member of the Tully clan and improve his own social status, absolutely. Probably other things that I haven't noticed, or that haven't yet been revealed. But as I understand the term "love," it's not something Littlefinger is capable of. He's a sociopath.)
Back to causes of Ned's death: Joffrey, but as, well, efficient cause rather than final cause, for those who use such language. (Ser Ilyn Payne/Janos Slynt are formal cause? Or do I have this backward? Too long since I studied philosophy.) Whoever was pulling his strings, and I'm betting on Littlefinger most directly, Joffrey is a child. A spoiled, crazy, and yes, evil child--but the adults around him, Cersei especially, get a lot of the blame for that.
Yes, Ned was more honorable than sensible. That doesn't (again, in my book) mean he's to blame. I also disagree with the statement that he wouldn't have warned Cersei if he'd known about Bran. He doesn't warn Cersei because he likes or respects her, but because he thinks/knows that Robert would have had the children killed if he knew that they were Jaime's children rather than his own. Ned really, really objects (more power to him!) to killing children; look at his reaction to the planned assassination of Daenerys, although he knows the danger she poses.
While I'm at it: somebody said that Ned didn't know Cersei was capable of treason. Huh? I'm assuming that the "treason" you were thinking of was the execution/murder of Ned, which (this really isn't hair-splitting, I think) is wrong and evil but not treason. However, her ongoing sexual relationship with Jaime after her marriage, let alone bearing his children and passing them off as Robert's, would be treason for a queen, certainly under English law--cf. the accusations against Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard--and so far as I can tell under Westeros law and custom.
Matthew: you say that Cersei was evil before she married Robert. If it's possible without spoilers (beyond, as I said, halfway through Book 3), can you tell me what you're basing that on? I am not for a minute forgetting her incestuous relationship with her twin; but I'm odd enough to think that that isn't evil. It pushes all sorts of ICK! buttons for me, don't misunderstand. But does it actually hurt anybody (before she was married to Robert, I mean)?
Gary: Cersei didn't turn to her own brother because of Robert's behavior to her; Cersei and Jaime had a relationship, either fully sexual or stopping just short enough of that that she was technically a virgin at her marriage--I think the former but am not sure--long before Robert and Cersei married. [Oops, Matthew already said this. I'm leaving it in anyway.]
Matthew again: I have to disagree also with "Robert isn't brutal to Cersei." Though I wouldn't disagree with "Cersei was horrid to him too." He hit her, and probably other things not spelled out, but she was certainly verbally abusive to him. And, again, she was arguably unfaithful to him. ("Arguably" only because it comes up somewhere or other that he never completed a sexual act with her--so that I think you could argue that Robert and Cersei were not technically married, which puts the infidelity question in a somewhat different light.)
OK. I must get some sleep before time to go to work.
Well, there were lots of different intrigues going on.
Having to pin-point just one, i would say the name of the person more directly envolved in his killing, the one what whispered in Joff´s ear not to send him to The Wall - Litlefinger.
Having to pin-point just one, i would say the name of the person more directly envolved in his killing, the one what whispered in Joff´s ear not to send him to The Wall - Litlefinger.
hmm, Littlefinger was very involved from the start and so sneaky and deceitful. I guess I just want someone to blame, for the whole thing leading up to his death - going to Kings Landing in the first place and then being imprisoned...
If Littlefinger hadn't betrayed Ned would he still be alive? I think Cersei would've had him killed somehow as he was a threat to Joffrey
If Littlefinger hadn't betrayed Ned would he still be alive? I think Cersei would've had him killed somehow as he was a threat to Joffrey
I agree with Maria (I think we discussed this in another thread). There is a little hint in the Arya chapter of Ned's execution, but more hints come in the next books. I don't want to spoil it for you! ;-)
I would probably blame Ned himself, honestly. He was too honorable for his own good, and didn't see that potentially that honor wasn't the best thing to resort to in a society that dug its heel into it to squash the slightest traces it might find. He didn't figure out the rules for the game quickly enough, and stood by his own too stubbornly.
Ooh, thanks Laura, I've had enough spoilers ;(
I am 34% through the 2nd book now.
Nikita, hope you're not giving anything away.
@Lizzie, I am starting to agree with you now, that Ned got himself killed by being too stupid/ honorable.. His family should've been more important to him than Cersei who doesn't deserve any mercy.. If he knew what Jaime had done to Bran I'm sure he wouldn't have warned her :(
I am 34% through the 2nd book now.
Nikita, hope you're not giving anything away.
@Lizzie, I am starting to agree with you now, that Ned got himself killed by being too stupid/ honorable.. His family should've been more important to him than Cersei who doesn't deserve any mercy.. If he knew what Jaime had done to Bran I'm sure he wouldn't have warned her :(
Lisa wrote: "Ooh, thanks Laura, I've had enough spoilers ;(
I am 34% through the 2nd book now.
Nikita, hope you're not giving anything away.
@Lizzie, I am starting to agree with you now, that Ned got himself ki..."
Keep in mind that everything you know (or think you know) about the characters, Ned doesn't know. As you point it out, he had no clue that Cersei was capable of treason. Even Cersei had no clue Ned would actually end up dead. He feared (and he was probably not far from the truth) that Robert would want the children dead. He couldn't live with more dead children in his conscience, after what happened to Elia and her kids during the sack of King's Landing. And he couldn't have foreseen what would happen to his family as a result.
I hope other comments abstain from spoiling more for you. Keep reading and enjoy!
I am 34% through the 2nd book now.
Nikita, hope you're not giving anything away.
@Lizzie, I am starting to agree with you now, that Ned got himself ki..."
Keep in mind that everything you know (or think you know) about the characters, Ned doesn't know. As you point it out, he had no clue that Cersei was capable of treason. Even Cersei had no clue Ned would actually end up dead. He feared (and he was probably not far from the truth) that Robert would want the children dead. He couldn't live with more dead children in his conscience, after what happened to Elia and her kids during the sack of King's Landing. And he couldn't have foreseen what would happen to his family as a result.
I hope other comments abstain from spoiling more for you. Keep reading and enjoy!
About Nikita's comment... It is still not proven that it was Littlefinger, but he's our primary suspect. I won't say more! ;)
Here's kind of a dark horse candidate for responsibility for Ned's death: How about Robert Baratheon? After all, Robert is connected to all the causes of Ned's execution:
1. He's brutal to Cersei, so she turns to her own brother.
2. His extra-marital activities are what leads Jon Arryn to discovering the truth about Joffrey's parentage, so Cersei (probably) kills Jon in "self-defense" as it were, to keep that secret.
3. He demands Ned come south to serve as Hand, even when he is, really, not at all suited for that job.
4. He gets drunk and is killed by a boar (granted, with some influence from Cersei) leaving Ned without allies in the capital, AND forcing Cersei to make her move for the throne.
Cersei is involved in a lot of those things, so she's really my prime candidate for blame when it comes to Ned's death, but Robert is tied up in her motives as well, so if one is counting up points, he probably comes out ahead. Cersei has little if anything to do with #3 (she seems to have opposed it from the start) so the king is pretty much on his own on that one.
1. He's brutal to Cersei, so she turns to her own brother.
2. His extra-marital activities are what leads Jon Arryn to discovering the truth about Joffrey's parentage, so Cersei (probably) kills Jon in "self-defense" as it were, to keep that secret.
3. He demands Ned come south to serve as Hand, even when he is, really, not at all suited for that job.
4. He gets drunk and is killed by a boar (granted, with some influence from Cersei) leaving Ned without allies in the capital, AND forcing Cersei to make her move for the throne.
Cersei is involved in a lot of those things, so she's really my prime candidate for blame when it comes to Ned's death, but Robert is tied up in her motives as well, so if one is counting up points, he probably comes out ahead. Cersei has little if anything to do with #3 (she seems to have opposed it from the start) so the king is pretty much on his own on that one.
Well let's not forget that Littlefinger and Cersei conspired to have Ned stripped of his honors and sent to the Wall, whereas it was a little psycho brat-boy named Joffrey who arbitrary decided to behead him. They are all to blame, but he was the one who derailed the conspiracy.
Matthew wrote: "Well let's not forget that Littlefinger and Cersei conspired to have Jon stripped of his honors and sent to the Wall, whereas it was a little psycho brat-boy named Joffrey who arbitrary decided to ..."
I think you mean Ned...
I think you mean Ned...
Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Well let's not forget that Littlefinger and Cersei conspired to have Jon stripped of his honors and sent to the Wall, whereas it was a little psycho brat-boy named Joffrey who arbit..."
Whoops! Indeed I did, must have been thinking about the other man they had killed...
Whoops! Indeed I did, must have been thinking about the other man they had killed...
I believe he was the one to put this idea in Joffrey's head as much as you believe that Cersei was behind Arryn's death. But neither have been actually confirmed by the text. We have hints and clues only.
In the case of Littlefinger, he's such a liar that I don't believe a word he says to anyone, except perhaps his past love for Cat. I guess the only real confirmation would be if he had a POV and we read him thinking something like "convincing Joffrey to behead Ned was a piece of cake for me and I even made him think it was his idea". LOL! A Petyr POV would be really creepy to read. That's one mind I'm not sure I want to read inner thoughts from.
In the case of Littlefinger, he's such a liar that I don't believe a word he says to anyone, except perhaps his past love for Cat. I guess the only real confirmation would be if he had a POV and we read him thinking something like "convincing Joffrey to behead Ned was a piece of cake for me and I even made him think it was his idea". LOL! A Petyr POV would be really creepy to read. That's one mind I'm not sure I want to read inner thoughts from.
Laura wrote: "I believe he was the one to put this idea in Joffrey's head as much as you believe that Cersei was behind Arryn's death. But neither have been actually confirmed by the text. We have hints and clue..."
I believe that too. I think this is the most GRRM ever gives the readers when it comes to all his "whodunnit" scenarios. Only indirect hints, the rest we are forced to construe ourselves.
I believe that too. I think this is the most GRRM ever gives the readers when it comes to all his "whodunnit" scenarios. Only indirect hints, the rest we are forced to construe ourselves.
Why put a spoiler in the title? Poor etiquette.
Matthew wrote: "I believe that too. I think this is the most GRRM ever gives the readers when it comes to all his "whodunnit" scenarios. Only indirect hints, the rest we are forced to construe ourselves."
Well, sometimes he goes on revealing further details in later books, like that conversation with Lysa Arryn that I will not elaborate on because it's a spoiler ;)
If he ever finishes the next books, we may know the answer to all our suspicions, all crackpot theories included!
Well, sometimes he goes on revealing further details in later books, like that conversation with Lysa Arryn that I will not elaborate on because it's a spoiler ;)
If he ever finishes the next books, we may know the answer to all our suspicions, all crackpot theories included!
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Sep 15, 2014 12:08PM · flag