Discussion: There There

[ColumbusReads]

Louise wrote: "I thought he did a fabulous job with so many different characters and making them all unique. You might see them one way, then later on he shows you that character's vulnerabilities and you see the..."

I think vulnerabilities is the perfect word for these characters, Louise. Both male and female.

[ColumbusReads]

Return is the third section for discussion. My notes just indicate “riveting and moving”....but it lists just one character:

Blue (Crystal) - Jacquie’s daughter. Adopted by affluent white family in Oakland. Moves to Oklahoma for a Youth Counselor position. Moves in with Paul who beats her. She leaves him and hides out in Greyhound bus station. Paul walks through GH station trying to find her and bring her back. She makes it onto the bus with the help of a stranger. Riveting/moving chapter.

[ColumbusReads]

The Smithsonian

Tommy Orange (himself a Cheyenne-Arapaho raised in Oakland) spins deceptively simple stories from the superficially unremarkable lives of his characters and creates, out of his insights into their human condition, a deeply profound meditation on U.S.-American Indian history.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smiths...

[Janice (JG)]

Lark wrote: "but I thought about it, as in, why did Orange choose to -not- make a direct reference to Oscar Grant?..."

My impression was that he chose to mention Fruitvale Station because of the association with Oscar Grant, but instead of pointing it out, by leaving it unspoken and unsaid it made it even more tragic... the station itself becomes a monument to the violent treatment of people of color. It also seemed to me that it was a foreshadowing of things to come.

[Karen Michele]

I was intrigued by the Alcatraz occupation as well. I think I may have visited San Francisco during that time with my family when I was a teen. I remember that we could only look out to the island because there were no tours and I know my father told us about why, but I don't remember if it was the occupation. While reading I thought about how it would be to be a child in that environment - wow! Because I had a library copy of the book, so I don't have it in hand, I'm hesitant to comment too much to avoid spoilers until everyone is finished!

[ColumbusReads]

There There, along with My Year Of Rest And Relaxation has appeared on more “best of” lists than any other book this year:

https://lithub.com/the-ultimate-best-...

[Janice (JG)]

Columbus wrote: "There There, along with My Year Of Rest And Relaxation has appeared on more “best of” lists than any other book this year:

https://lithub.com/the-ultimate-best-......"

This is a breakthrough novel... congratulations to Tommy Orange!

[jo]

I read this fast and unfortunately just don’t remember it very well. I plan to reread it but there are always other books!

I keep thinking, what are the themes here? The guys who organize the heist are not native, but they enlist the help of a native man (just one? more than one?), the guy with FAS. They could not do it without his (and others’?) help.

The powwow mean a lot to a lot of people, and acts as a catalyst for reunions of parents and chIldren.

So the whole novel leads to this event, this very native, very proud event, a true moment of cultural and ethnic survival, but it leads to it also with a shadow of violence hanging over it, and this violence comes mostly from outside but also from inside the community.

The FAS guy (Tony?) is the sellout, the leak, the break in the fence. He moves only by bike and has a sense of pride in himself, if I remember correctly (dang, I should get the book from the library again and reread it). Or is is false pride, a need to assert himself in spite of his disability?

The woman seem to be the staunchest repository of the tradition — the grandmothers at least.

That’s all I’ve got.

[jo]

also, i think the novel opens (prologue?) and (view spoiler)[closes with the massacring of natives (hide spoiler)] so that might be a unifying theme.....

[Janice (JG)]

jo wrote: "also, i think the novel opens (prologue?) and [spoilers removed] so that might be a unifying theme....."

An Apache friend of mine once told me that originally "the circle was broken from within" (and he was quoting a chief, I don't remember who). Perhaps this story is an analogy of that.

[Julie]

Louise wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Also, what other Native American writers have you read? I forgot to mention that in our early talk on the book. Erdrich and Alexie come immediately to mind but there are certainly ..."

Thank you for this list, Louise! I'm especially interested in Nobody Cries at Bingo. We use Alexie's Absolutely True Diary in our freshman seminar class and got some justified pushback after his sexual misconduct was revealed. I'm looking forward to checking this out as an alternative!

[ColumbusReads]

Julie wrote: "Louise wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Also, what other Native American writers have you read? I forgot to mention that in our early talk on the book. Erdrich and Alexie come immediately to mind but there..."

I understand he initially planned to have a blurb by Alexie on the cover and then at the last minute had him replaced by Atwood after the allegations.

[Karen Michele]

I am so disappointed in Sherman Alexie. He has been a Seattle icon and I have met him briefly many times and gone to his lectures as well. I'm not quite sure what to do with my collection of most of his work. Right now it's in a box downstairs. I'm glad that Tommy Orange's voice is adding to the range of native authors. I hope that young adults will also have some new authors to replace him. If you have YA readers in your life or are interested in YA books, this is a good list:
http://www.yainterrobang.com/ownvoice...
I have enjoyed the work of Joseph Bruchac and Cynthia Leitich Smith and am adding the others to my overflowing TBR. I also recently read and enjoyed House Made of Dawn by N. Scott Momaday (Pulitzer, 1969). I have read Ceremony and Almanac of the DeadLeslie Marmon Silko and enjoyed both.

[Beth]

I recommend: Neither Wolf Nor Dog by Ken Nerburn (mostly non-fiction/memoir style of a white writer recording the stories and perspective of an elder about contemporary reservation life and Native history). Maybe not the best writing, but worth the read for the content!

Also, I’m new to this and can’t figure out how to respond to previous comments—but above someone said the heist was organized by non-Natives, enlisting that help of one native (I assume he meant Tony). But, I understood all the characters as being at least partially native, even if they didn’t identy that way. Specifically, Octavio, the organizer of the heist is living with his grandmother—when she takes him out to the country to catch a badger (steal some fur!? badgers are terrifying!) to break an Indian curse. And there is the scene with Octavio and Sixto’s medicine box. The gun fabricator, Daniel is Octavio’s cousin (same grandma). Calvin and Charles’ dad wasn’t around, but told them they are native (and Calvin works for the powwow committee).

I think it matters that everyone involved with the heist is partially Native - and still (some reluctantly) willing to steal from their own.

[ColumbusReads]

The entire book is open for discussion

What about that Powwow!

[ColumbusReads]

Midway through this book, Tommy Orange breaks away from the narrative and includes an interlude. Much like the prologue, the interlude brings context to the story that is soon to unfold, most particularly the powwow. I thought it was a rather bold move on his part to include this break particularly at the time he did it. The prose was flowing, the action building and to interfere with that I felt takes a rather confident writer.

This short section includes the importance of the powwow and its significance to indigenous people. He also explains and gives a little history of last names:
We didn’t have last names before they came. When they decided they needed to keep track of us, last names were given to us, just like the name Indian itself was given to us....

Powerful.

[Lata]

I loved the interludes and how they pack a real emotional punch (I think I'm mixing metaphors here, but you know what I mean.) even though the interludes broke up the action and tension, they provided necessary context for who is considered an Indian by the government, what the cultures of the various bands mean to them and to the non-indigenous around them.

[Nadine in California]

Lata wrote: "I loved the interludes and how they pack a real emotional punch (I think I'm mixing metaphors here, but you know what I mean.) even though the interludes broke up the action and tension, they provi..."

I agree -a forthright move and so much better than trying to put it in the mouths of characters.

[Karen Michele]

I was thrown a bit by the interlude at that point in the book, but then I realized it was like the climb on a roller coaster as you slow down and move to the top, but you are anticipating what's coming when you reach the crest of the hill. I thought the whole concept of the book and Orange's execution of it were strong. The powwow was incredibly powerful. I rarely rate a debut as 5 stars, but I may have to change this one from 4 to 5.

[jo]

Beth wrote: "I recommend: Neither Wolf Nor Dog by Ken Nerburn (mostly non-fiction/memoir style of a white writer recording the stories and perspective of an elder about contemporary reservation life and Native ..."

This is a useful clarification Beth, thank you!

[Adrienna]

I am late. Just started the reading with both book and audio version, but so far, not liking it. I'll see other comments.

[Adrienna]

Sunita wrote: "Columbus wrote: "Thanks so much, Sunita! I was gonna make a trip to the library in this all-day torrential downpour in Atlanta to pick up the book for that. I can wait til Monday now."

You're most..."
I have read literature from Native Americans, but these are for young people to learn the basics on Cherokee, Chowtaw, and other tribes in California and elsewhere. I have also taken a college course in early 2000 on the Native Americans History during the 1880s, such as the Trail of Tears, etc.

However, I would like to read more literature by them esp. fictional works since most of the books I've read are nonfiction.

[Electra]

I 'm French but I have lived in the US and have kept friends (Paiute and Blackfeet). I love to read books (fiction and non fiction), I just read Murder on the Red River by Marcie Rendon and I was glad to see such a character ! and I loved the Break by Katherena Vermette, Birdie by Tracey Lindberg, the classic Ravensong by Lee Maracle, I thought Louise Erdrich's LaRose was beautiful too, of course I read Sherman Alexie, Thomas King, Richard Wagamese, the thriller White Sky/Black Ice by Stan Jones (set in Alaska) and of course I have read There There and just got for Christmas a few books by other authors I will mention here soon. I also read Therese Mailhot's essay and I'm also looking forward to reading new voices !

[Karen Michele]

I forgot Joseph Boyden in my list of recommendations. I rated two of his books 5 stars:
Three Day Road and Through Black Spruce
The Orenda is the group read for January in another of my groups and that reminded me. Also, thanks for the recommendations and discussion, everyone!

[ColumbusReads]

There There makes Barack Obama’s best of 2018!

https://m.facebook.com/barackobama/po...

[Adrienna]

Janice (JG) wrote: "Joelle wrote: "I googled the spider legs after finishing the book. It's something that happened to the author! :-O"

Yes it's true! He mentions it in an interview, but he has no explanation for it...."
I agree with previous comment on the spider legs in ones leg. I reviewed this article shared and still states it is a metaphor, however, I didn't still find this clear. I will just bypass this and continue the reading...about 65% in.

[Beverly]

Another Indigenous author to read, especially if you like speculative fiction & mythology is Rebecca Roanhorse.

This past year I read the first book in her The Sixth World series - Trail of Lightning.
I am looking forward to reading the next book in the series - Storm of Locusts being published in April 2019.

[Beverly]

There There has won a National Book Critic Circle Award

Tommy Orange, author of There There, is the recipient of the fifth annual John Leonard Prize, established to recognize outstanding first books in any genre and named in honor of founding NBCC member John Leonard. Finalists for the prize are nominated by more than 600 voting NBCC members nationwide, and the recipient is decided by a volunteer committee of NBCC members.

[ColumbusReads]

Beverly wrote: "There There has won a National Book Critic Circle Award

Tommy Orange, author of There There, is the recipient of the fifth annual John Leonard Prize, established to recognize outst..."

Hello Beverly, i think he deserves it for that prologue alone. Just brilliant!

[Carmel]

I really enjoyed this book. Well done portrayal of the splintering of family and culture due to a dominant culture's mistreatment.

[ColumbusReads]

Tommy Orange wins PEN/Hemmingway award for debut fiction:

https://pen.org/press-release/tommy-o...

[Beverly]

There There wins another award:

The winners of the 84th annual Anisfield-Wolf Book Awards, sponsored by the Cleveland Foundation and honoring "books that have made important contributions to our understanding of racism and human diversity," are:

Fiction: There There by Tommy Orange

Nonfiction: The War Before the War: Fugitive Slaves and the Struggle for America's Soul from the Revolution to the Civil War by Andrew Delbanco

Poetry: Wade in the Water by Tracy K. Smith

Lifetime achievement: Sonia Sanchez

"The new Anisfield-Wolf winners bring us fresh insights on race and diversity," said Henry Louis Gates Jr., who chaired the jury. "This year, we honor a breakout novel that jars awake our notions of contemporary Native Americans, a book of exceptional poetry from the U.S. Poet Laureate and a brilliant history right on time to depict the moral stakes testing every American generation. All is capped by the lifetime achievement of Sonia Sanchez, poet and an architect of the Black Arts Movement."

Karen R. Long, manager of the book awards at the Cleveland Foundation, praised the prescience of philanthropist Edith Anisfield Wolf in founding the prize in 1935: "She intuited that a commitment to civic justice through literature would be as important now as it was during the Great Depression. We are proud to add the 2019 winners to this important canon. These marvelous books scrutinize racism and explore human diversity from many perspectives even as reading them knits us closer together."