Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
II. Publishing & Marketing Tips
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E.G. wrote: "I can recommend two goodreads groups that provide authors with the opportunity to give/receive book reviews in a process that is moderated and avoids conflict of interest.Review Group: https://..."
I bet if I checked the vast majority of the resulting reviews don't disclose the arrangement in the review.
Which is why I now disregard all reviews from authors, unless I know enough about a specific author to know they are willing to post their honest opinion, good or bad.
Auntie J wrote: "E.G. wrote: "I can recommend two goodreads groups that provide authors with the opportunity to give/receive book reviews in a process that is moderated and avoids conflict of interest.Review Gro..."
The source is a group started by a reader to vet SPA's for other readers, Auntie. It is not a review swapping group.
Lisa wrote: Doesn't it sadden anyone that 5* reviews are so often taken to be fake? It does me, but I can fully understand why some readers might feel that way.
"
As someone who tries all day to promote a friend who is an SPA, I often ask for feedback and encourage anyone to leave a HONEST review good or bad. Having read this thread, I am now rethinking my strategy on how to build word of mouth. Thanks for opening my eyes on reader perception.
My big soapbox is when you do get legitimate 5 star reviews and along comes old "never done a review before except this one" person, and it's a 1 star pointing out the good reviews are all fakes.
Authors who play by the rules and legitimately earn good reviews suffer because of those who buy them. :-(
What is an 'SPA'? I've not heard the term before.
I don't do it because there are too many books I *want* to read, not *have* to read.And for reviewers who can't give less than four star- Did anyone see Carrie Underwood in The Sound of Music? Girl can sing, but her acting was awful. Should I give that a great review because she put so much hard work into it?
Shirley wrote: "I buy the books I review. I must be very naive. None of what you said even crossed my mind. I just know I was told that I needed reviews. Dishonesty was not the motive for me at all."Reviews are quite frankly overrated as a sales mechanism. They are helpful to readers, and I personally adore the chance to get into a reader's head (because they're not for me--they're not a critique--it really is almost like eavesdropping, and like eavesdropping, it is polite to pretend you haven't heard anything, criticism or praise).
There are people on my friends list who've given me one and two stars--because they're interesting and I like them even if they didn't like one or more of my books. I have made far, far more money on one of my lowest rated books than I have on my highest one.
Intriguing readers so they add the book, talk about the book, or even actually read the book should be your goal. Interesting (not necessarily positive) reviews are just one of many means to that goal, and not even the main means.
D.C. wrote: "Reviews are quite frankly overrated as a sales mechanism. They are helpful to readers, and I personally adore the chance to get into a reader's head (because they're not for me--they're not a critique--it really is almost like eavesdropping, and like eavesdropping, it is polite to pretend you haven't heard anything, criticism or praise)."That's great, D.C. I really like that and it's quite fitting. :)
Abigail wrote: "I don't do it because there are too many books I *want* to read, not *have* to read.And for reviewers who can't give less than four star- Did anyone see Carrie Underwood in The Sound of Music? Gi..."
Bingo.
My two cents on getting readers? Come to reader oriented sites like Goodreads and participate as a reader. Don't talk about your book, talk about books you've read and liked. If I find an author has similar reading tastes to mine, I would be more inclined to take a chance on a new-to-me author.
Best examples I can give (in no particular order) are Sharon Penman, Elizabeth Chadwick and Susan Higginbotham. I've seen all three ladies step in on forums and help the readers solve a historical puzzle or two. If their blog posts or FB posts talk about their books, it's more about the research and whatnot going into the current WIP and not the spamalot we see so much of these days.
Oh, and Susan H's first novel, The Traitor's Wife, was originally self-published, but she got the readers and the word of mouth and the book was eventually picked up by Sourcebooks.
TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "D.C. wrote: "Reviews are quite frankly overrated as a sales mechanism. They are helpful to readers, and I personally adore the chance to get into a reader's head (because they're not for me--they'r..."Thank you.
Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang Froid) wrote: "I'm wondering how to respond to requests for 'review swaps' and other reciprocal promotional activities..."I ignore them. The threads, that is. No one's ever specifically asked me to do a quid pro quo.
First of all, I think it's ethically questionable. People might say they want honest reviews, but if you really dislike what they wrote, are you really very likely to give a one or two star review? And is that really what people are expecting?
Second, I'm not convinced that it really helps the cause. All the threads to this effect end up sounding like a room full of writers who want to market their books, but end up just marketing to an echo chamber of other writers trying to do the same thing. I'm not sure it really gets the word out to the people who matter: readers/customers.
Third, time I spent reviewing a book I genuinely dislike (and I have to admit that MOST of the books I sample on my own out of curiostiy turn me off in the first 2 paragraphs...assuming they don't before then) is time I could have spen writing.
And finally, IF I did accept a swap invite and ended up hating the book...I could not bring myself to actually write an honest review. I would fear reprisals from the other author so more than likely I'd send them the review privately and never post it. End result, I don't get a review, they don't get a review and I've wasted a lot of time and emotional energy.
Bad all around.
YMMV
Misfit wrote: "My two cents on getting readers? Come to reader oriented sites like Goodreads and participate as a reader. Don't talk about your book, talk about books you've read and liked. If I find an author has similar reading tastes to mine, I would be more inclined to take a chance on a new-to-me author. "I agree, Misfit.
And, regarding what someone else mentioned about a one-star review that said all the 5 star reviews were fake - customers weigh reviews, those that bother to read any of them - unless the one star review provided enough explanation to be meaningful, and the positive reviews were written in a way as to be very suspicious, I wouldn't worry much about it. Rarely are reviews the sole factor in a customer making a decision for themselves, and I suspect many customers don't even look at them, or only look at the first few.
And all five star reviews looks odd on a book by an author who isn't really well-known. It actually looks better to have a few that are less than stellar. In fact, for me personally, I feel most books are not five star books, they just aren't. And that's OK. I don't expect every book I buy and read to blow me away with it's awesomeness. I expect a reasonably entertaining experience. So if I see all glowing reviews I wonder, and typically don't put much stock in them at all.
So, look at it this way, the person who gave you that one star review may actually have done you a favor :D
Thank you Auntie J!!!!! You just improved my mood and my outlook tenfold!Hugs to you!
Auntie J is right. All gushy five star reviews from framily just looks suspicious. Hang around here at GR and the in Amazon forums and you'll notice that mentioned a lot. I look for reviews with substance that tells me what's inside the book. The Klausners of Amazon land aren't going to tell me if the book is OTT in violence and rape, if it's a sexed up wall paper historical, or if there's a damned good family saga hiding behind that sexed up vintage Fabio cover. That's why we want reader reviews. Some readers like sexed up wall paper romances - nothing wrong with that. Some like squicky male sex and rape and are gung ho for Follett's Pillars of the Earth, but others prefer a realistic portrayal of the medieval period. That's what most readers are looking for in reviews. Well, at least the readers I hang out with :)
Edit, typo.
Robin wrote: "Thank you Auntie J!!!!! You just improved my mood and my outlook tenfold!Hugs to you!"
You are most welcome :D Most readers and most consumers really do know we have to take things with a grain of salt, and most book buyers have been mislead before by reviews - both positive and negative.
Just because a bunch of other people liked or disliked a book, that doesn't really tell me if I will or not.
And also, we know that even the most honest review is a reflection of taste and preference, we still have to glean for ourselves if we're likely to like it or not.
Sometimes negative reviews give enough information so that others can see they might actually like it.
For example, what if a reviewer gives a negative review because he found the book has unicorns in it, and he hates unicorns. Well, I like unicorns :D
Misfit wrote: "Auntie J is right. All gushy five star reviews from framily just looks suspicious. Hang around here at GR and the in Amazon forums and you'll notice that mentioned a lot. I look for reviews with su..."Yes, me too!
Micah wrote: "I ignore them. The threads, that is. No one's ever specifically asked me to do a quid pro quo."Well, I get requests both for reviews and review swapping.
The requests for reviews will be honored if the book in question is in a genre I read and if the Amazon sample shows adherence to a professional standard. And it goes to the bottom of my TBR list, so it might take awhile for a review to appear...
The review swapping requests... I think many of these authors are misguided, so I respond by explaining why they shouldn't continue these practices, but rather try giveaways if they're that desperate for reviews.
I don't participate, because I am very free with my one-star ratings. That tends to make people angry. I don't need extra drama in my life.
Nenia wrote: "I don't participate, because I am very free with my one-star ratings. That tends to make people angry. I don't need extra drama in my life."I'm not particularly free with one stars, but I am um... blunt, so I think it tends to keep it to a minimum. I've only gotten a few requests, and most of them weren't strictly reciprocal.
Linda wrote: "(Please keep in mind that some of the readers Misfit hangs out with are . . . . . strange. Not all of them. But . . . . . . . . some. If you know what I mean.)"Lol.
Nenia wrote: "I don't participate, because I am very free with my one-star ratings. That tends to make people angry. I don't need extra drama in my life."I'd think the several 'Stopped Reading Reviews' I posted would be a deterrent, but maybe these authors are just gluttons for punishment.
Misfit wrote: "Linda wrote: "(Please keep in mind that some of the readers Misfit hangs out with are . . . . . strange. Not all of them. But . . . . . . . . some. If you know what I mean.)"Lol."
I fully admit to being one of these strange indie-viduals.
Linda wrote: "Well, what can I say?"You could always say, "Hi, Nenia!"
:D
Linda wrote: "I just received one this morning, the first direct solicitation of a 5-star for 5-star rating on Amazon I've ever received.I not only turned it down firmly, but I flagged the PM -- which came fro..."
I got the same email, Linda. I forwarded the email with the PM to Support.
Jim wrote: "Exaggerated or blatantly false 5-star ratings and raving reviews, which some indies and SPA's routinely award eachother's books, regardless of the quality of the techinical writing or narration, ha..."Jim... well said!
Linda wrote: "In case you haven't already seen it, GR's Patrick, Director of Author Marketing, has a post in the Authors Feedback Group about "commercial" reviews, which are prohibited on Goodreads."Hi guys, I joined this group just for this discussion (but will probably turn off notifications because there are HOW MANY threads?)
Linda, a question about commercial reviews. I review for the Historical Novel Society, on a volunteer basis, because I like the HNS and enjoy being part of their review team, and because this forces me (and allows me with free books) to read outside my usual interests. I cross-post the reviews to GR and LT, with a link to the original place of publication (and of course the statement that I got a free review copy).
When I write these reviews, I have to put myself in the shoes of HF readers in general, and my HNS editor won't let me be snarky on behalf of the HNS, who would have thought? So those reviews are definitely more polite than those of the books I acquire for my own reading. I try to be honest within the constraints of professional politeness.
I will admit straight out that I would probably not award less than 3 stars for these books in case the author or publisher finds the cross-posting, as I don't want to get the HNS into hot water.
Here's an example: a novel I would have snarked the heck out of if I'd bought it for myself got 3 stars and this:
"An insubstantial plot is contrived to throw obstacles in the path of true love, but the plot lines are too predictable to offer much entertainment. At times the action looks promising—a mysterious nanny and a family argument near the end of the novel spring to mind—but these developments fall flat due to the characters’ tendency to do the right thing and conform to a worldview that has more to do with pious hope than reality. Overall, an unexciting read."
And finally, my question: is this commercial? To some extent the HNS reviews are a collusive effort, because they are writers in a genre reviewing other writers in the same genre. On the other hand, we are strictly barred from reviewing our friends' books, and I would stake my life on the probity of the editors. On which side of the line do you think I'm walking here?
Ok, another question. HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE ONLY! I'm not asking or hinting.(Insert any author's name here)is a member of a group that I participate in here on GR. Author X happens to enjoy and write the same genre. He decides to purchase and review the one I suggest. I have always felt it was common courtesy to return the favor BUT I do not feel obligated to falsify my opinion on the review. If I like it, I say so and comment on the reasons why. If I think it's rubbish, I say nothing at all publicly. I msg the author and tell them the book did not meet my personal taste so therefore I would not be leaving a public review.
Am I guilty of participating in reciprocal reviews unknowingly? *crossing fingers*
Thanks, I feel better. I'd hate not to cross-post as I like GR to be a record of what I've read--it's surprising how often I refer back to it!
I set up a separate amazon account under my writer name so I generally leave most of my reviews through my personal account. I don't think reviews should be paid for or swapped, personally I'd rather get a bad review from a stranger than a 5 star review from someone I know because I would assume they were biased. I do want to know what people actually think of my writing, whether it's good or bad.
But reviews are really for readers / customers and I think if a reader is going to be persuaded by the reviews they'll be more interested in the reasoned description and criticism than by generic praise.
I have been swayed on many occasions by the customer reviews and often by negative reviews - if I read what someone hated about a book I may think 'but that sounds like something i'd love'.
Jane wrote: "I will admit straight out that I would probably not award less than 3 stars for these books in case the author or publisher finds the cross-posting, as I don't want to get the HNS into hot water.Here's an example: a novel I would have snarked the heck out of if I'd bought it for myself got 3 stars and this:
"An insubstantial plot is contrived to throw obstacles in the path of true love, but the plot lines are too predictable to offer much entertainment. At times the action looks promising—a mysterious nanny and a family argument near the end of the novel spring to mind—but these developments fall flat due to the characters’ tendency to do the right thing and conform to a worldview that has more to do with pious hope than reality. Overall, an unexciting read.""
This is ambivalent. The words of the review show that you really don't like the book, so why award it three stars? Maybe one star or possibly two stars, but if I wrote that about a book, there's no way in hell it would get three stars.
And why would a 'less than three stars' get the HNS in hot water? If a book doesn't deserve three stars, that wouldn't be HNS fault, would it? Sounds more like the author wrote a crappy book. I don't see why the book should merit three stars...
I tend to err toward generosity in awarding star ratings - not really sure why, that's just the way I roll. This discussion made me look back at my ratings stats, and I suspect I get slightly more generous with advancing age, but on the whole I've been pretty consistent, with 4 stars my default rating. So 3 stars for a book that I personally hated but would undoubtedly do its job for a certain type of reader isn't particularly inconsistent with MY ratings pattern. I was very aware when reading it that I was definitely not the target audience for this book, and that's one of the things about reviewing for an organization (or newspaper/journal, library magazine, whatever)--you have to look at the book with a different pair of eyes, as it were. On its plus side it was well written and edited--my main gripe was that the plot was shaped by a super-conservative, judgmental worldview that was like nails on a chalkboard to me.
That being said, I think I'm going to bring the topic of ratings up with the HNS magazine editors. I suspect the answer will be that we're free to rate however we want. Would that make me bring this particular book down to 2 stars? I'm not sure, based on what I said above.
This is an absolutely awesome discussion. Check my essay, "Rating the Ratings," and see what you think:http://authorshelpingauthors.wordpres...
Charles wrote: "This is an absolutely awesome discussion. Check my essay, "Ratings the Ratings," and see what you think:http://authorshelpingauthors.wordpres..."
GR users rate and comment in the review space often just for themselves cataloging their books on their shelves. So, there is nothing wrong with a user giving a star rating with no comments. We don't control what GR does with how we rate, review and shelve books. I think a person thinking a rating with no comments isn't right doesn't really understand how GR functions for users.
I've been asking for GR to allow me to keep my ratings, reviews and shelves visible to Friends Only since I joined in 2007, but so far they refuse.
I have a lot of ratings with no comments, and the lack of privacy is one reason. Another reason is I've organized books I've read in the distant past. I may remember how much I enjoyed them, or not, but not enough to leave any meaningful comments.
I'm a self-published author and have absolutely no problem with people leaving ratings without reviews. Or saying they liked the book but giving it 2 stars. If that's how they rate, that's their business. The more reviews you get, the more the ratings level for your book evens out into its natural level, and you have to accept what that natural level is. Not all books are going to be 5-star efforts, particularly at the start of your writing career when by definition you're unlikely to be doing your best work.The question for SPAs shouldn't be "How do I get better ratings for my book?" but "What can I learn from my book's reviews and ratings? What can I do better next time?" The first question leads you to participate in reviewing rings and shady marketing efforts, the second and third questions reset your focus to where it should be, on your personal responsibility to improve your craft and production standards so that your reader gets a fantastic reading experience. Once you start blowing readers' socks off by giving them everything they want from a book (which varies depending on genre, audience, etc.) they will tell their friends and the issue of getting good ratings is solved.
Jane wrote: "I'm a self-published author and have absolutely no problem with people leaving ratings without reviews. Or saying they liked the book but giving it 2 stars. If that's how they rate, that's their bu..."Well said, Jane... while any author hopes for and appreciates high ratings and positive reviews, I have to say, I have learned from the true ratings/reviews that also shed light on areas the reader had issues with. Faked or planted reviews do no good for anyone. I hope to learn what moved readers and/or what caught them up... there's the gold!
Jane wrote: "The question for SPAs shouldn't be "How do I get better ratings for my book?" but "What can I learn from my book's reviews and ratings? What can I do better next time?" The first question leads you to participate in reviewing rings and shady marketing efforts, the second and third questions reset your focus to where it should be, on your personal responsibility to improve your craft and production standards so that your reader gets a fantastic reading experience. Once you start blowing readers' socks off by giving them everything they want from a book (which varies depending on genre, audience, etc.) they will tell their friends and the issue of getting good ratings is solved."I wished I had written that. *grin*
Although I do read reviews and will consider some of it as feedback, I tend to rely on getting feedback before I publish by using my beta readers. So I'm not disappointed in the least by my average rating, either here or Amazon.
I think it's important to stay detached in the sense that you don't allow yourself to be negatively influenced by a lack of reviews. I jumpstarted my reviews by using a group on GR (Shut Up and Read), where you can offer your book for review. That resulted in positive reviews and my request at the end of my books (where I ask the reader to leave a short review, if possible) netted me a higher than usual review ratio.
Still, it's not the reviews that sell the books. Many readers gave me feedback that they bought the books based on the cover and blurb, or because they like my posts on the discussion boards. The reviews are mostly ignored, also because some readers want to read the books before other people's opinions influence their attitude towards the books.
Auntie J wrote: "GR users rate and comment in the review space often just for themselves cataloging their books on their shelves..."Exactly. When I joined GR, I added every book I could think of that I had read...well over 200 of them...all at once. I rated them according to my memory of them and wrote no reviews. No way I'm going to sit down and pen over 200 reviews based on my failing old memory. I don't even trust my own ratings, let alone yours or anyone else's!
;D
Completely agreeing with Jane! Well said!!
I have never once based my purchase of a book on its reviews. If the blurb doesn't interest me I simply don't buy it and I think, as everyone in this thread has so rightly pointed out so far, that's really what sells books the most, regardless of reviews. After all, reviews are other people's opinions and what someone loves may not translate to others (case in point, I found 50 Shades of Grey horribly boring,but so many people seem to greatly enjoy it) so, to me, the idea of buying a book based solely upon someone's review of it seems a little strange, but I get it. That being said, soliciting 5 star for 5 star reviews sounds really pointless because if you have to beg for a 5 star review, something's not quite right.As an author, I welcome all reviews of my work. If you think it's worth one star and a review highlighting its negatives, wonderful, I can learn from it. If you think it's worth 5 stars and your review is a long list of achievements, excellent, my gratitude! If you leave stars and no review? That's also fine. No review or stars? Eh, your call!
I think honesty is the key thing and at the end of the day, if you have to beg people to kiss your ass...bit useless. But on the other hand, if I've read an indie author's book via R4R that is genuinely awesome I'm going to tell them so. Same with if it's pretty bad. It's not like I'm ever going to see them again and should they then give my writing a low rating which isn't reflective of their true opinion, that's on them. That fear shouldn't stop me from being honest.
Of course, there aren't that many honest people, so perhaps that's why it's easier to write off all author reviews and review swaps as ego stroking/self gaining promotion.
Micah wrote: "Auntie J wrote: "GR users rate and comment in the review space often just for themselves cataloging their books on their shelves..."Exactly. When I joined GR, I added every book I could think of ..."
Me too Micah. I wanted to catalog and list all books I've read, and all those I own. Quite a large number I read many years ago and don't remember much beyond if I enjoyed it or not. I had no intention on rereading most of those so I could add a review.
Hear, hear!
And Shirley, if the reviews are suspicious to readers, they're worthless.