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November 2018 Group Read: The Hunt For Red October, by Tom Clancy
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Nancy, Co-Moderator
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Oct 31, 2018 05:01AM
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Really looking forward to the discussion. This has been on my want-to-read list forever and this is a great time to do it. I'm 20% in and itching to start the conversation. . . . but I'll wait until tomorrow. Cheers!
I have read a few of Tom Clancy's novels and enjoyed them. The Hunt for Red October is in my top five list of favorite films. Because the book is on Amazon's 100 best thrillers, I finally read it last year or the year before. My expectations were high but unfortunately not met. I had a bit of a hard time following - was expecting more story like his other books (I like a linear story - but that's my neurosis) but felt it was heavy on the technical part of what was happening with the sub. I hope I did not give too much away as far as the story goes.
The Hunt for Red October is the novel which started Tom Clancy's career; it came out in 1984. It should be widely available in most libraries and bookstores, and in most formats.I first read it, I think, in about 1990, which is when the film, starring Sean Connery and Alec Baldwin, came out. (The movie is fun, too.)
The book is loosely inspired, in part, by a 1975 mutiny on a Soviet frigate, the Storozhevoy. (The Soviets had feared the ship would reach sanctuary in Sweden, and sent half their Baltic fleet, and a number of aircraft, after it. The ship missed Swedish waters by only about 40 miles.)
It's the first "Jack Ryan" novel by publication.
Tom Clancy was born in 1947, and died in 2013. He grew up in the Baltimore area. He wrote The Hunt for Red October while working at an insurance office. The novel would sell hundreds of millions of copies, and make Clancy both rich and famous. (He would, indeed, buy part of his hometown baseball team, the Baltimore Orioles.)
Gretchen - the editors had Clancy cut about 100 pages as "too technical"!
I think this has been mentioned before but on the technical side, there were people who asked whether Clancy had been briefed by the White House or Pentagon based on how much technical information he was able to provide about submarines.
I'm not prejudiced by seeing the film, but I expect that this translates to the screen almost better than to the page. After the first 50 pages, I would have stopped reading if I didn't know in advance that this is supposed to be a great book. There is a lot of exposition, not a lot of action, and even after 50 pages you really don't know what the story is about. I really did not like the device (twice) where the characters know something, but Clancy hides it from the reader until later. Very annoying. The story picks up (partially after Jack Ryan finally makes an appearance), but the beginning is Slllooowwww. As an editor, I would have rejected this first draft and suggested that he pick up the action sooner.But, now 150 pages in, it's starting to get easier to follow and I'm more into the characters.
How do others feel about the way Clancy explains (or not) the Russian captain's motivation for launching himself and his other officers on this course? On the one hand, there is a lot of background information (which slows down the action), but even with what we've been told, does it make sense? Is it clear? Would it have been better to skip all the background in the beginning because, ultimately, do we as readers need to understand the motivations?
I have seen the movie about 25 times now; I know whole parts of the dialogue and I just love the Russian singing. It is part of why I started learing Russian. When I saw this book was up for discussion I first wanted to go and read it; now I see so many people having a bit of trouble with it because of it being too technical and too slow.
So I think I better leave it... I just want to keep that happy feeling when watching the movie ;-) - but I will follow this discussion with interest.
Kevin, I do think we as readers need to know the captain's motivation. Otherwise, it will just appear that he 'flipped out' for no reason. And if he did indeed mentally snap, we need to know that, too.Jannelies, Clancy does load his books with technical stuff, but he's one of the few authors who can make that stuff make sense to the reader. And I think that enriches his stories. Yes, the book starts off slow, but once it picks up momentum, it's a rollercoaster ride to the finish. I enjoyed the movie, but I liked the book better because it provides a richness the movie can't deliver.
I like the background. It makes sense. But I love Clancy's books however long they are.
I've loved Clancy since I was given a copy of Without Remorse. One of the best things is the way something will happen in chapter 12 and we'll forget it until towards when it becomes important!! Happy reading!
OK, Quill -- I agree in principle that understanding the Russian captain's motivation is significant, but at the point where the narrative leaves the Russian sub and focuses elsewhere, what do we know? I have not gone back and re-read the first hundred pages, but the impression I'm left with is: (a) his father was a communist hero and high-ranking party member; (b) his mother died on the operating table and he blames an incompetent doctor, and likely the whole communist medical care system; (c) he is disenchanted with the party's methods and in particular his political officer. But, is that enough? I'm sure I'm missing something, but it seems sketchy. It's so (very) hard to get a reader inside a character's head in the first several chapters of a book and have the reader really understand him. Maybe we'll get more later (I hope). Tough assignment for Clancy.
It's been many moons since I read this book but if I recall correctly (and I could be wrong), it was the sub captain's wife who died from something like appendicitis because there was no penicillin available to fight the infection. I also seem to recall as a 'somebody' in the Soviet Union because of his father and his own achievements, the captain and his family had a better life than the average Soviet citizen, which only increased his dissatisfaction with the Soviet system.It's been years since I read any Clancy books but again, if I recall correctly, the focus of his writing was more on the technology the military used and the men who used it than on the motivation for a character's actions.
Kevin wrote: "After the first 50 pages, I would have stopped reading if I didn't know in advance that this is supposed to be a great book. There is a lot of exposition, not a lot of action, and even after 50 pages you really don't know what the story is about...The story picks up (partially after Jack Ryan finally makes an appearance), but the beginning is Slllooowwww. As an editor, I would have rejected this first draft and suggested that he pick up the action sooner."This is Clancy's best and most tightly edited book BY FAR. Read Executive Orders and you'll want to stab yourself in the eye with a knitting needle.
There was something missing from Clancy's books written after the end of the Cold War that made the ones written about it so terrific. Clear And Present Danger was good, but the books that followed were only ok at best. The Bear And The Dragon fell somewhere between those 2 extremes.I've read every Clancy book I own at least twice, Randy, except for Debt Of Honor. I just couldn't wade through it a second time (felt about it the way you felt about Executive Orders) and had no desire to read any more of his work.(The Bear And The Dragon was a loaner).
I've read several (though not a huge number) of Clancy's novels, and feel this is easily the best of those that I've read.
Putting aside the slow start and the captain's backstory, once we get into the preparations of the American & British navies to try to find the "Red October" as the Russian navy tries to find and sink it (him), with Jack Ryan somehow getting into the middle of it, I'm really enjoying the intrigue -- despite all the military jargon. The tension is rising and I've been sucked in now and want to see what happens. I can see the appeal for a movie-maker.
Randy wrote: "This is Clancy's best and most tightly edited book BY FAR. Read Executive Orders and you'll want to stab yourself in the eye with a knitting needle."Randy -- I have not laughed so hard in weeks! Thanks.
I went through a phase of reading all of Clancy's works. The Hunt for Red October was excellent.
My favorite's always been Red Storm Rising.
Kevin wrote: "Randy wrote: "This is Clancy's best and most tightly edited book BY FAR. Read Executive Orders and you'll want to stab yourself in the eye with a knitting needle."Randy -- I have not laughed so h..."
Well, it would leave a mark
Y'all be careful with those knitting needles! (I know I am, and I have plenty of 'em.)
Quillracer wrote: "My favorite's always been Red Storm Rising."I liked that one too.. Also The Cardinal of the Kremlin, especially the spy craft.
I liked everything up to and including Clear And Present Danger.The spycraft in Cardinal of the Kremlin was great.
Quillracer wrote: "I've read every Clancy book I own at least twice, Randy, except for Debt Of Honor. I just couldn't wade through it a second time (felt about it the way you felt about Executive Orders) and had no desire to read any more of his work...."I didn't like that one much either, tell the truth.
Kevin wrote: "Randy -- I have not laughed so hard in weeks! Thanks."
You're welcome. That goes for Without Remorse also. And probably Debt of Honor too. Keep them away from the knitting.
Bill wrote: "Quillracer wrote: "My favorite's always been Red Storm Rising."
I liked that one too.. Also The Cardinal of the Kremlin, especially the spy craft."
Those were both very good also. I think the two titles above, plus Hunt for Red October, make up the best of Clancy's work. After that his books got increasingly bloated and ridiculous.
Patriot Games had too many eye-rolling scenes, like Jack telling off the POTUS when he's medicated. And Sum of All Fears was just WAY too long, although the last 200-300 pages were fantastic.
I have Rainbow Six on my shelf and I might get to it next year, but if it's not a step up from the prior few (reviews are mixed on this point) I'll probably be done with Clancy for good.
so, 200 pages in, Clancy has one of the OTHER Russian subs experience a reactor coolant failure and core meltdown. Why? It's very exciting, and he describes and explains the nuclear physics and engineering process very carefully, but why? What is this adding to the narrative of the story? Maybe he will explain it, but my first reaction is "Why?"
To show another failing of the Soviet system?
Kevin wrote: "so, 200 pages in, Clancy has one of the OTHER Russian subs experience a reactor coolant failure and core meltdown. Why? It's very exciting, and he describes and explains the nuclear physics and eng..."Well, I think he just uses this happening so we, readers of The Hunt for Red October (or watchers) may be forewarned something like that might happen to the Red October too ;-).
Kevin wrote: "so, 200 pages in, Clancy has one of the OTHER Russian subs experience a reactor coolant failure and core meltdown. Why? It's very exciting, and he describes and explains the nuclear physics and eng..."The cool thing about Clancy is that there is no detail too small.
I was thinking that this mishap now creates an actual rescue situation, which was the pretext for the Russians to be mobilizing their fleet in the North Atlantic. This could justify certain actions, even if it is not successful in actually saving any of the lives on the Alpha sub. We'll see. I'm hoping (and Jannelies' comment suggests this now ) that this episode somehow ties back into the main story at some point.
I think part of the reason Clancy gave the second sub a reactor failure was to show another shortcoming of the Soviet system and another reason (along with the death of his wife) for the Red October's captain to defect.Throughout the Cold War, the Soviet Union lied to the world and its own people. They could not admit to any failures or shortcomings of any kind. But it was all a sham. They couldn't provide the most basic needs of their citizenry.
One reason I like Clancy is because he shows all the moving pieces of the picture. He gives a top down view. The reader knows more than any individual in the story. Like moving chess pieces. He's amazing.
300 pages in and I'm totally committed to (a) finishing this; and then (b) watching the movie. I'm sure the movie is not 5 hours long, so the movie-makers have to edit out 50% or more of what Clancy is writing here. I appreciate the attention to detail, but it really is dragging now in the middle sections as we get small bits of the central story surrounded by gaggles of side-stories. Is that just me, or do others feel like we could really live without all these threads?
This is a re-read for me and now I know why I really never read another Tim Clancy novel. I just find the whole thing sort of dry if that makes sence. I remember I liked the movie maybe because as you say they don't get into all the sidelines.
Separate issue as to writing craft -- how do we feel about Clancy's character development. I'm more than halfway through the book and I feel that, for all the action and movement of the plot, I have very little insight into the characters, and there has been no movement by any of the characters. Jack Ryan doesn't get much sleep, his buddy the professor is really smart, the sub commander gave us some insight into his family history way back in the first chapter, but we really haven't seen anything else that gives us a peek into his psyche or that further develops his motivations or his personality. all the other characters have their roles to play in the story, but we don't know much about them. None of the characters have much of a relationship with any other characters -- not even animosity. So, from a character perspective, I'm not impressed (so far).
Kevin wrote: "Separate issue as to writing craft -- how do we feel about Clancy's character development. I'm more than halfway through the book and I feel that, for all the action and movement of the plot, I hav..."Many of Clancy's later books have even less character development than Red October, and in the books where he tries to focus on his characters (Without Remorse, Debt of Honor) he fails miserably, using cheap melodrama as a substitute for depth. Clancy's characters have never risen much above the two-dimensional white hat/black hat stoic types from the old time westerns of Clancy's youth, except for Jack Ryan who chatters constantly, spewing forth a thinly-disguised version of Clancy's own opinions on the subject at hand.
Next nit to pick here -- about two-thirds of the way through, Clancy writes a chapter back at the White House where there is a person who is uncovered as a Russian Spy. The names get tossed around, but it's difficult to remember from 200 pages ago who these marginal characters are, and there is no attempt to link this espionage back to the main story. Then, Clancy jumps back to the main plot (more or less) and so far there is no further mention of the spy or what he has to do with anything. So, why is this chapter in the book? If it's going to be important later on, then he should have brought us back to those characters along the way to keep the thread in our head. As it stands, I'm just baffled by it and I'm forgetting about it. Not great technique.
Is that the part where he gets arrested and they don't really go back and say why they were arrested.
On my Kindle, it's at p. 362. At CIA headquarters there's a meeting with Senator Donaldson (and I have no memory of what role he played earlier in the story) and his aide, Peter Henderson (also, no idea who he is) Henderson turns out to be a KGB agent (how?) and when the CIA director told the senator about the Red October plan, the Senator violated the secrecy of the information by telling Henderson, who told somebody else in the KGB. There's a back-story exposition about how Henderson was a liberal at Harvard during the Kent State killings, which somehow turned him. Now, the CIA director uses the information to force the Senator to retire and take a position with a Connecticut University (why do we care?). Henderson is arrested. It's not at all clear how this affects the Red October operation. I guess it means that the Russians know what the plan is, although that is far from clear. If the leak is important to the story, Clancy is keeping it a secret.
This was yhe first Tom Clancy book I’ve ever read! I enjoyed it immensely and think it a good introduction to this author:)
I don't think character development or sub-plot cohesion were high on Clancy's list.I think his main priority was the high-tech gizmos the characters used and the action.
You have that right, Quill! On an unrelated point, is it just me or do other people have lots of formatting errors on their Kindle edition of this book? I've got dozens of sentences that don't have periods and the first word of the next sentence runs right up against the last word of the prior sentence with no space. Just me? Also several typos (e.g., "then" instead of "the"). You would think for a book that has been in print for so long, they would go back and clean that up. Or is that just pie-in-the-sky thinking?
Not just this book, every book.I have yet to download any Kindle book that did not have at least one (and frequently many) errors of every kind imaginable. Missing and wrong words, missing and wrong punctuation, etc. If there's a goof that can be made, they've made it.
Another pet Kindle peeve of mine is their inconsistency in marking progress in a book - page number, time left in chapter, location in book, time left in book. Sheesh! You'd think they'd pick one.
There's no excuse for either one of these shortcomings.
Quillracer wrote: "I don't think character development or sub-plot cohesion were high on Clancy's list.I think his main priority was the high-tech gizmos the characters used and the action."
Yes, I believe this was one of the first in the techno-thriller genre. I really enjoyed it when I read it soon after it came out & remember one of my submarine service friends saying he got the tech & capability stuff about subs right
I am impressed by the technical detail, even if it does not always make for gripping narrative.I'm nearly done now and two specific observations:
1. I continue to be frustrated by the hide-the-ball technique of having things going on in the story that the characters know, but the reader doesn't. Case in point is the whole helocopter crash sequence, where the guys in the chopper are racing to the ship in order to deliver a message to Jack Ryan. The chopper goes down 20 miles from its destination, but there is no suspense because WE DON'T KNOW WHY WE SHOULD CARE because Clancy has not told us what the information is. Later, we find out that the information was that the secret spy in Russia had relayed a message that there was a back-up agent on the Red October who would try to scuttle the sub, but by the time we find out, the agent is dead, the mission is accomplished, and then (and only then) can the reader think back to the chopper crash and say, "oh, that's what that was all about." Very poor writing, I think.
2. After the big play is made and the Russians and their sub are safely in the hands of the Americans, I look down at 100 pages left to read and wonder, "what's left?" Then, for the next 75 pages, the answer is basically -- nothing. They have to transport the sub to Norfolk without it being blown up by the Russians, not that this seems like a big risk, and then we get page after page after page of boring detail about this trek without any serious tension. Can they get to Norfolks already? Is there something that's going to happen when they get there? It seems like the story is over, so why are we still reading? Did anybody else feel any sense of tension in those pages?
Follow-up to my last post - I finished the book and I'll give Clancy credit for coming up with an exciting conclusion with the sub battle near Norfolk. He could have gotten there more efficiently, but at least he got there. The explanation for why the Russians left an attack sub in the waters just off the US coast (and why the Red October didn't just hug the shoreline in US waters during the trip) were not entirely clear, but he got to the ultimate action.
"It seems like the story is over, so why are we still reading? Did anybody else feel any sense of tension in those pages?"We had to get those last 75 pages about how amazed the Russians were at how great America was--this was the cold war, after all.
The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Rainbow Six (other topics)Clear and Present Danger (other topics)
Executive Orders (other topics)
Without Remorse (other topics)
The Hunt for Red October (other topics)
