Memory and Dream by Charles de Lint

[Jalilah]

Starting August 25: Memory and Dream by Charles de Lint
If you've never read Charles De Lint before come join us! Memory and Dream is part of De Lint's Newford series and it's a great place to start!

[Katy]

I'll try to join in.

[Jalilah]

Kathy wrote: "I'll try to join in."
That's great Kathy!

I mentioned this before, but I find there are many similarities with Memory and Dream, Waking the Moon and Tam Lin.
All three novels were written in the 90s but take place or at least start in the 70s. All involve young protagonists away from home in their first year at university encountering some kind of magical experience that will alter their lives. And all three seem more realistic with the magic more hidden at first, but I will say no more!

[Katy]

Oh cool. I've and enjoyed Waking the Moon and Tam Lin.

[Shelle]

Thanks for posting this on Mythic Cafe. I miss being part of a book club, and this group reads what I like to read. Now I have to find my old Memory and Dream paperback, I'm excited to re-read it!

[Monica]

This is book #5 in de Lint's Newford Series. I was going to read the series from the beginning, but my library doesn't have all of them. Is this a "continuation", series using same characters, etc., whereby points will be missed because earlier books weren't read?

[Jalilah]

Monica wrote: "This is book #5 in de Lint's Newford Series. I was going to read the series from the beginning, but my library doesn't have all of them. Is this a "continuation", series using same characters, etc...."

Monica you can most definitely start with this book!
the Newford series is more like a series of standalone novels taking place in the same universe. There are some later ones like The Onion Girl and Widdershins where having read the previous novels would be better to fully appreciate them, but Memory and Dream is a good place to start. All the main characters are new and your not missing any background story. Btw I don't think the way the order is marked on goodreads is accurate.

[Melanti]

I think the Goodreads order is more or less by publication date - which is as good an order as any.

But yea, with the two exceptions that Jalilah mentioned, the books can be read in whatever order you can get your hands on them in. There's a core group of reoccurring side characters, (which are the stars of The Onion Girl and Widdershins) but most of the rest each have a fresh set of main characters so all the books stand alone very well.


I'm going to try to join in, though I've not been the best at group reads so far this month... but I think most of the books selected for September group reads in other groups are ones I've already read so I should have plenty of free time.

[Melanti]

(by the way, putting the Cats of Tanglewood Forest right up next to Circle of Cats and way out of publication order was my doing... But I did that because one is a novel expanded from the original novella)

[Monica]

Jalilah & Melanti...Thanks for the info on series order. I'm pretty sure my library has this particular book so I'll join the group read.

[Jalilah]

Michelle wrote: "Thanks for posting this on Mythic Cafe. I miss being part of a book club, and this group reads what I like to read. Now I have to find my old Memory and Dream paperback, I'm excited to re-read it!"

Welcome to the group Michelle! That's great you'll be joining us!

[Jalilah]

Melanti wrote: "I think the Goodreads order is more or less by publication date - which is as good an order as any.
But yea, with the two exceptions that Jalilah mentioned, the books can be read in whatever order..."

The reason I always suggest starting with one of De Lint's adults novels like Memory and Dream, Someplace to Be Flying or Forests of the Heart is because a few times people I knew started in the published order, but never made it past the first few books. They are just not IMO, as good as the later novels and not really necessary for being able to read the other ones.

#1 Dreams Underfoot is a collection of short stories. Some are wonderful but others not so, at least for me.
#2. The Dreaming Place is a YA novel. It's good, but IMO does not come close to his adult novels.
#3 A Whisper To A Scream and #4 I'll Be Watching You are horror-thrillers, so different from De Lint's usual style that he originally published them under a different name,
"Samuel M. Key".( and it still caused quite a controversy I've read).
Memory and Dreams is the 5th.

[Zanna]

I've got this book on order, but I'm not expecting it before the end of August. So, as usual, I am late, but I am coming!

[Melanti]

Jalilah, you definitely have a point with this being the first true adult Newford novel despite it being officially #5 in the series.

Besides being horror/thriller, From A Whisper to a Scream and I'll Be Watching You have the Newford setting but not the same themes at all. One of them - I think it's From A Whisper to a Scream - isn't even fantasy.

[Margaret]

I'll be joining in as well.

This will be my first De Lint, though I have several of his books. They look so good, and I tend to like series that can be read out of order, so I keep collecting them when they come in at the bookstore I work at, but then I don't read them! That's one excellent reason for joining groups:) Seven Wild Sisters came in just the other day, and I added it to my bookshelf. I'm all set for him to become one of my favorite authors:) Hopefully, that pans out!

[Michele]

Oh yay! I love Charles de Lint, will try to join in.

[Monica]

Melanti wrote: "Jalilah, you definitely have a point with this being the first true adult Newford novel despite it being officially #5 in the series.

Besides being horror/thriller, From A Whisper to a Scream an..."

Jalilah & Melanti, this is good info to have. I am not a fan of horror/thriller and had I started with my original plan to begin reading his books "in order" probably I too would not have ventured further into this series to discover the truly good fantasy stories.

[Zanna]

I can't stand horror so I'm also glad of Jalilah's guidance

[Jalilah]

Zanna wrote: "I can't stand horror so I'm also glad of Jalilah's guidance"
Monica wrote: "Melanti wrote: "Jalilah, you definitely have a point with this being the first true adult Newford novel despite it being officially #5 in the series. Besides being horror/thriller, From A Whispe..."

I can't stand horror either! Not even from my favourite authors! For this reason, I have not read either From a Whisper to a Scream or I'll Be Watching You!

Because my copy of People of the Sea, has not arrived yet, or any of the other books I've ordered for that matter, I going to start now. I'll refrain from commenting on it however until some of you have started.

[Leann]

Ah, I know I'm missing out. Thanks for the invite, Jalilah. So busy with work and foster animals that I'm barely reading the books I've already started. This one's now on my list though.

[Jalilah]

Leann wrote: "Ah, I know I'm missing out. Thanks for the invite, Jalilah. So busy with work and foster animals that I'm barely reading the books I've already started. This one's now on my list though."

No problem Leann, all the threads here stay open, so even if you read it at a later date you can always come by and share your impressions!
I know that you and I often have similar tastes, so you might really like it!

[Julia]

Margaret,

I've read and loved , but there's very little by Charles de Lint I don't read. (This version of Seven Wild Sisters: A Modern Fairy Tale is special because it's illustrated by Vess.) This is a MG novel. Including his two 'horror' novels, which IMO, weren't much horror, and I'm not a horror fan, usually. But again, they aren't great entry points, either.

Memory and Dream was my very first Charles de Lint novel. I'm pretty sure I've reread it before, but it's not a hardship to reread a favorite!

[Monica]

Just picked up my copy from the library so I'm good to go. Looking forward to this one.

[Jalilah]

The plot in Memory and Dream is full of twists, so it would be better please to hide any potential spoilers.
Here is how:
< spoiler>text goes here< /spoiler>

- Make sure to remove the spaces between the brackets and you get:
(view spoiler)[this is a spoiler (hide spoiler)]
Thanks!

[Margaret]

I started this last night, and I've already underlined several sentences! Lovely, thought-provoking language. I was expecting something a little sillier, because the few short stories I've read by him have been lighter, but this is wonderful! I hope I continue to like it as much as I am right now:)

[Katy]

Don't know how much I will get read this week/weekend, but will start on Monday for sure.

[Jalilah]

Margaret wrote: "I started this last night, and I've already underlined several sentences! Lovely, thought-provoking language. I was expecting something a little sillier, because the few short stories I've read by ..."

I felt like underlining some of the sentences too Margaret! It is such a deep and rich novel. Although I read it some years ago and could remember the general plot, there was a lot I'd forgotten, so I am really enjoying and appreciating it this time. I agree it is very thought provoking.

I would say there are several myths underlying the story, wouldn't you? Pygmalion for one...maybe a little of the sorcerers apprentice although I'm not sure if that's considered a myth?

[Margaret]

Yes, I certainly see Pygmalion and Sorcerer's Apprentice. I also see the idea of (view spoiler)[ golems, creating life out of the inanimate. And how about the religious idea that everything--inanimate or otherwise--has a soul, and certain people can call to life that soul? I recently read a history of shamanism, and that idea was discussed, but then I also think that idea was believed in Druid cultures? I'm not quite certain about this. But it feels as if he's combining Celtic/Druid folklore, Native American folklore, and mythology. I love it. And so subtle. I'm putting this as a spoiler, just in case people haven't read to the part where the paintings come alive! /spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

[Margaret]

(view spoiler)[ This is getting quite intense! I'm at the part where Isabelle has just refused to create more numena for Rushkin so he can bring back Kathy, and she's now in a room painting furiously away. But can we trust Isabelle? Her memory is now very much in question! But then, I have some very dear people in my life with PTSD, and one of the most frustrating things about PTSD is how its victims often recreate memories, and that recreation becomes their absolute memory, and to say anything otherwise is to lie. I love how De Lint entwines some very serious issues of abuse, PTSD, and romantic relationships with magic. And of course, what is other and therefore unworthy of ethical consideration, and what is human. It feels as if the novel is at its climax, and yet there's still 150 pages to go! But then, there's still the fire to figure out, how to give the numena the red crow, what Isabelle's going to do about Rushkin, and now there's a messy murder going on with Alan. Okay, yeah, it does need another 150 pages! /spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

[Jalilah]

Margaret wrote: "[spoilers removed]" Yes it does get intense! I agree with everything you wrote above!
(view spoiler)[be prepared for twists and turns and surprised right until the end! (hide spoiler)]
I think to okay to say this without giving away any spoilers, but that is one of the things I really like about De Lint, that he combines real life issues with magic and fantasy. I got very frustrated with Isabelle and there were times while I was reading that I felt shaking her! However it's as you say above!
Here is my review. I tried my best to make it spoiler free!
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Monica]

Jalilah wrote: "would say there are several myths underlying the story, wouldn't you? Pygmalion for one...maybe a little of the sorcerers apprentice although I'm not sure if that's considered a myth? "

I also see Alice in Wonderland - Through the Looking Glass.

[Monica]

Finished the book last night. Enjoy this imaginative story, but felt that while some of the character interactions were adequate, they lacked depth for a truly great telling. For example (view spoiler)[ The relationship between Alan and Isabelle...much allusion to deep feelings as very good friends, but they didn't have truly deep, meaningful, heart-pouring discussions. Seems she called on him most often when she needed a ride, help moving, etc. I did not get the sense of anything special.

In general I felt that while the main human characters aged in years, they did not mature or blossom. They seemed to be the same as they were in the beginning...same issues, same baggage, same way of relating to one another. (hide spoiler)]

I will definitely read another of his books.

[Jalilah]

Monica wrote: "Finished the book last night. Enjoy this imaginative story, but felt that while some of the character interactions were adequate, they lacked depth for a truly great telling. For example The relat..."

I agree about the relationship with Alan Monica. I had wondered about that myself (view spoiler)[it seemed like the friendship between Isabelle and Kathy was much stronger than either of their one with Alan. He seemed much more of a side character to me, likeable but not really part of the main story. For this reason it was not really possible to tell if he'd matured or grown or not (hide spoiler)]

As for Isabelle, (view spoiler)[ for me it was part of the story, the fact that Isabelle was so much in denial about what happened in her early 20s that on an emotional level she never matured. My personal opinion is that after the novel finishes, once she has accepted all that Rushkin was and had done to her, the numera, in particular her relationship with John Sweetgrass as well as Kathy's suicide that she will finally mature and grow emotionally. However until the end of the novel, a part of her is dead and buried. That's my take anyway! As for Kathy, it is tragic but I guess she just could not cope with all the painful memories of her past. (hide spoiler)]
All and all I would say, for me that the characters in this novel were somehow less likeable than characters in other De Lint Novels like for example Bettina in Forests of the Heart or Jilly in The Onion Girl. As a result I liked it slightly less than those novels, all though I still think it's a very powerful and wonderful book.

[Monica]

Jalilah wrote: "All and all I would say, for me that the characters in this novel were somehow less likeable than characters in other De Lint Novels like for example Bettina in Forests of the Heart or Jilly in The Onion Girl.

That was my take as well. I didn't find myself connecting with any of the characters, so whatever happened to them...oh well. I agree, it was still a very good story and I will try one of the other De Lint books you suggested.

[Margaret]

The character I was most drawn to was Kathy, who, of course, is dead. I could have had more journal entries! My least favorite parts were with Alan, (view spoiler)[ though I did think he had relationship problems. With Marisa he was equally aloof, and seemed to be unable to step out of friendship--I'm the guy who'll help you move and let you cry on my shoulder but that's pretty much all I can do emotionally. Though he does end up with Marisa. But the relationship he had with her seemed similar to the one he had with Isabelle, just Marisa actually liked him enough to pursue him, so they managed to get together. But I doubt he would've made the first move if she hadn't of seemed interested.

I actually did like Isabelle, though I often wanted to throttle her too! I think it's fairly common with PTSD or victims of child abuse to have trouble looking at the future, or thinking of the present in terms of the future. There's only the what is happen at this exact moment (I don't want to generalize; just with some people, from what I've read). I saw Isabelle's journey as that of overcoming the mental block that being a victim had given her, to finally being able to look at the future. To allow herself hope. Something Kathy had been trying so hard to do.

I was a little bothered by the numena, in that Isabelle's numena are treated as human beings, but Rushkin's aren't. They are monsters, archetypes of evil. I would have liked there to be a little bit more subtlety to their characterizations, for them to have independent goals like it seems Isabelle's do. (hide spoiler)]

Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed it!

[Monica]

Margaret wrote: "My least favorite parts were with Alan..."

Oh that Alan... (view spoiler)[He did have relationship issues, didn't he! He hooked up with Marissa at the end, but as written, she is "conveniently unavailable"; having just left her husband. Safe. No need for Alan to commit any time soon...if ever.

Also, liked your point about the treatment of Rushkin's numena vs Isabelle's. (Or were they Rushkin's numena's numena? (Since who knows how long the old guy had been dead.) (hide spoiler)]

I did enjoy the overall story.

[Jalilah]

Margaret wrote: "The character I was most drawn to was Kathy, who, of course, is dead. I could have had more journal entries! My least favorite parts were with Alan, though I did think he had relationship problems..."

With Regarding the numera (view spoiler)[And why Rushkin's are more evil, I don't remember who said it, I think it might have been John Sweetgrass, the difference was because Isabelle had created hers with love where as Rushkin had created his for the sole purpose of the destroying the other numera so that is why they were more like monsters (hide spoiler)]

Monica wrote: ..Oh that Alan... He did have relationship issues, didn't he! He hooked up with Marissa at the end, but as written, she is "conveniently u..."

Re: Rushkin, I don't think it says exactly in the book, but at what point do you all think that...(view spoiler)[Rushkin's numera took over the real Rushkin? Do you think that the person Isabelle first met was the numera already, or do you think that Isabelle met the real Rushkin, but at a certain point the his numera took over? It was mentioned that Isabelle noticed his body had changed and he was not as ugly as when she first met him. This could have been because the numera had taken over OR that his body had become so dwarf like and deformed because he had no numera to feed upon and once Isabelle started painting them for him, his body and looks changed... (hide spoiler)]

What do you all think?

[Margaret]

(view spoiler)[ It could definitely be read either way. My thought is that it had always been his numena, and that he was ugly at the beginning because he hadn't anything to feed upon. Although, he didn't rush Isabelle into painting numena. He didn't seem desperate. But, he hadn't been seen by anyone for a while, everyone thought he was dead even at the beginning, and he also seemed like he knew what he was doing with Isabelle; like he already knew he could feed off of numena. And doesn't he say he's had previous protegees? I may be misremembering that. It would be interesting if it happened sometime in between. Rushkin hits her the first time soon after their sessions started, so if the numena took over sometime after that, it would suggest that human Rushkin was also an abuser, and the numena just took over where he started. Hmm. I also thought his body might change based on how satiated on numena he was. Also, since he was no longer tethered to his painting, he might have the ability to change his appearance. (hide spoiler)]

[Monica]

Jalilah wrote: "Re: Rushkin, I don't think it says exactly in the book, but at what point do you all think that.."

Hard to tell from the way the book was written. Lots left to interpretation in my opinion, which makes it great for discussion.(view spoiler)[ I thought that Isabelle met his numena, perceived as troll-like, and as he "fed" his appearance softened. When he hungered his personality and looks turned uglier until satiated. (Reminds me of some people I know who get very cranky if they don't eat on time!) (hide spoiler)]

[Zanna]

Just started Memory and Dream today! I'm finding it excessively wordy; it could be edited severely without losing anything in my opinion. I am intrigued by the story so far though = )

[Jalilah]

Zanna wrote: "Just started Memory and Dream today! I'm finding it excessively wordy; it could be edited severely without losing anything in my opinion. I am intrigued by the story so far though = )"

Zanna, De Lint is definitely not light fantasy. In fact sometimes Fantasy readers don't like him because he is too real and not escapist enough.

Funny how this book has you thinking about it even after you've finished! Margaret and Monica, I agree with what both of you suggested, that
(view spoiler)[The person that Isabelle met that first day in front of the cathedral was Rushkin's numena and the real Rudhkin had long since been murdered. If his numena needed other numenas to feed upon, it makes perfect sense that he chose Isabelle to do this. On that first day he recognized that she had the ability (hide spoiler)] I just was not sure because (view spoiler)[Isabelle used to make tea and lunch for him, but as he says later the numena can eat food, they just don't need to . So the eating and drinking was all a show for him to appear human. Had he never eaten Isabelle might have suspected something once she understood about them (hide spoiler)]

Just some info to share, as Melanti and I already said Memory and Dream is the first actual Newford Novel. If you like short stories, Isabelle's friend Jilly is featured in several of the stories in Newford book#1 Dreams Underfoot along with some of the other side characters.

[Zanna]

I don't mean it's heavy going - on the contrary I'm finding it very fast - I read 80 pages in about 70 minutes which is very quick for me. I mean... there are a lot of words for a few ideas? I find the imagery quite conventional and therefore very easy reading = )

I like Jilly a lot so far

[Monica]

Zanna wrote: "I don't mean it's heavy going - on the contrary I'm finding it very fast - I read 80 pages in about 70 minutes which is very quick for me. I mean... there are a lot of words for a few ideas? I find..."

That's an interesting observation, Zanna. I was getting annoyed at his frequent repeats...sometimes the same line/thought a little bit further down on the page.

[Margaret]

Hmm, I liked his repeats! I found his writing style/technique a nice mix of philosophy and poetry. I can see how that style could get old, however. It's interesting how different voices and writing style can be jarring to some, and pleasant to others.

[Jalilah]

Margaret wrote: "Hmm, I liked his repeats! I found his writing style/technique a nice mix of philosophy and poetry. I can see how that style could get old, however. It's interesting how different voices and writing..."

Lol! there were repeats? I did not even notice! But as probably everyone in this group knows, De Lint's one of my favourite authors.
But no worries Everyone about critiquing or not liking it! I gave this book to one of my best friends who often has similar reading tastes and she did not like it that much and we are still good friends! ;)
I've got to say his novels are very rich,intense and thought provoking so I can not read one right after the other. I always need to wait awhile and read other books in between.

As I mentioned earlier on another good book to read without having read any of the previous Newford books is Forests of the Heart. I would have nominated for our Forest theme, it would have definitely fit, but a number of us in this group read it as a buddy group read last year. In many ways it is more enjoyable than Memory and Dream. It's characters are more likeable. A lot of it takes place in an artist residence and both Isabelle and Rushkin are mentioned as "famous Newford artists" who had also lived there at some point.

[Margaret]

I noticed he would repeat certain phrases, or repeat an idea in slightly different wording. But yes, part of what I love about discussing books or anything else really is differences of opinion!

I also own Forests of the Heart, and I'm excited about reading it. It probably won't be soon though, since we're reading Seven Wild Sisters for the group read.

[Zanna]

While the style clunks a bit for me I'm very much enjoying the story and ideas. Some of the scenes call up very vivid mental images for me, such as the ribbons tied to the fire escape. I always like going at something new, so good recommendation Jalilah xxx

[Katy]

I am enjoying the story. Had to put it down to finish a couple of other books; one for my face-to-face book group this week.

[Katy]

Why did I ever set this book down? Wonderful.

[Monica]

Kathy wrote: "Why did I ever set this book down? Wonderful."

What a difference a "day" makes!