"Babel-17" Full Discussion *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Due to overwhelming peer pressure, I am opening threads up a couple days early ;-)

So!! What the what!! What did you think? How did you feel about the different uses of language? Are you thinking constantly about how you talk now? Did the story work as a conveyance for these ideas?

Which techno-babblery was your favorite?!?!

[Anthony]

I’m in the middle of Part 2 and I’m very much enjoying this. The encounter in which the Baron shares his arsenal is a diabolically creepy and darkly funny scene. There’s such an energy to the writing, and even more than 50 years later it feels extremely fresh and sharp. I’m very impressed.

[AliNicole Reads]

Favourite scenes so far (I still have 1.5 hrs to listen) - Dinner with the Baron and Rydra trying to explain "I" and "You" to The Butcher

Not so much techno-blabber, but I want a book about Rydra's polyamorous marriage and all of their adventures together. Such a tease!

[Alex]

So many thoughts about science, language, and society. The conversations with the Baron and Baroness play nicely against each other. I had to stop part way through Rydra's conversation with Ron, though, because it reminded me so much of something I've written. Never seen it broached before in this way, as mine, and now I need to process it. I'm really enjoying this journey, and I'm not even concerned where it leads.

[Edit] Now finished part 2 and....

[Alex]

Anthony wrote: "I’m in the middle of Part 2 and I’m very much enjoying this. The encounter in which the Baron shares his arsenal is a diabolically creepy and darkly funny scene. There’s such an energy to the writi..."

I didn't find that funny in the slightest -- mostly because I wondered how many real people like that live in this world. It nauseated me.

[Alex]

I'll throw in my initial thoughts from the "no spoiler" thread, then I'll shut up for a while.

"The characters and story, two chapters in, are interesting and certainly makes me want to continue reading, but it's really the concepts presented in Babel-17 which have caught my attention. Language as any transmission of thoughts/ideas, whether verbal or not. Language as not necessarily perfectly representing those thoughts/ideas. Language itself as a shaper of thoughts/ideas and the way we perceive existence around us. Take Latin, for example: it's an extremely precise language, which makes it excellent for debate You say what you mean, and you mean what you say -- there's very little in the way of poetic device. Most scientific terminology derives from Latin. Imagine, though, having Latin as your first language -- it would certainly colour how you express your perceptions of the world... and it might very well colour the formation of your brain/thoughts, if that's how you learned to think. Imagine having thoughts you didn't have the language to express -- to yourself, or anyone else.

Anyway, these concepts aren't new to me, per se. I've studied them before, and even seen them considered in science fiction ("Shaka, when the walls fell.”) But what IS new to me is the idea of language as an instrument of war. It's still early in the story, but I'm intrigued to discover how things work out."

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

No need to shut up!!

I really loved how Delany explored all of the different ways we use language--and all of the ways we communicate. I was able to "feel" scenes--I was seriously creeped out by the Baron and found the Baroness endearing, for example. Butcher was fascinating.

I also liked all of the things around the language itself. The friendships, the romances, the discussion of different relationships, the presence of gay people and people of color and women with agency and purpose! Wow!

And then of course all the cool imaginative stuff. I loved all the augmentations (and how it changed speech!) and the ghosts especially. What a cool freakin' idea.

The story itself was mostly not there, but I was so excited about all of the things going on, and the way Delany masterfully mixed things up to show us how much we rely on language that it didn't matter to me.

Super glad I read this one, and that many of you also seem to be enjoying it!

[Jemppu]

Alison wrote: "Favourite scenes so far (I still have 1.5 hrs to listen) - Dinner with the Baron and Rydra trying to explain "I" and "You" to The Butcher

Not so much techno-blabber, but I want a book about Rydra'..."

I can agree with whole of this message! Sums up pretty much all my favorite aspects/scenes in the book.

Especially that talk with Baron, where they started with a discussion about their relationships and moved on to the linguistics - that was where the book peaked for me.


Alex wrote: "..."Shaka, when the walls fell.”..."

Just recently a scene in a book reminded me of this! But frustratingly I can't remember which one! There's been several touching on the subject of varied ways of communicating. Could be Midnight Robber, or could've been from Robin Hobb even - something that was relayed through the Wit. Agh... I need to dig into my memory banks.

[Christopher]

Speaking of language, how does the narrator of the audiobook pronounce Rydra's name? I wasn't sure if it should rhyme with "hydra" or if it was Ree-drah or even Rid-ra. If it does rhyme with "hydra" was her name intentionally tongue-in-cheek? (i.e. sounding like "Right a wrong"?)

[Dawn F]

The narrator says it so it rhymes with “hydra”. If I hadn’t heard it I would also be unsure if it was that or “ridra” with a short ee sound.

[Alex]

Allison wrote: "I loved all the augmentations (and how it changed speech!) and the ghosts especially. What a cool freakin' idea."

I really hope there's more explanation to them! I want to know more!

[Rose]

The scene in part 3 between Rydra and the Butcher had my head spinning in the best possible way. How do you explain the grammatical concept of the first and second person pronouns to someone who has little to no frame of reference for such an idea? You'd just keep running up against the same problem of just, how do you define when and where to use "I" when every explanation for it, you need to refer to your student in the second person while giving them instructions. You'd just run into the same problem that Rydra was encountering, non-stop.

The Butcher's slow learning of how to use this concept was at first endearing, then kinda heartbreaking. He seemed to crumple a little upon getting the hang of "I", as if he was no longer a series of parts comprising the Butcher, but he was I, and in realising that, he had lost something important.

Pronouns are so intrinsic and important to the expression of self. I love this stuff. I think that Delany's done this part so well.

[Alex]

@Rose

Language, verbal or otherwise, IS identity/self.

[Rose]

@Alex oh yeah absolutely no doubt about that! Language is intrinsically tied with culture and identity, no arguing from me.

But like, idk, I guess I might just feel that pronouns and how they specifically relate to the expression of self is just a predominant/important thing for me, since I've spent a lot of time soul searching on the nature of pronouns and what's right for me. I think that might be why this conversation between them stood out, and why I enjoyed it.

[Jemppu]

Rose wrote: "...I've spent a lot of time soul searching on the nature of pronouns and what's right for me..."

I get this, and share your intrigue on the usage of pronouns and the role they play in shaping the view we have of ourselves and of others, and how they might affect the general attitudes of a society in general.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh, that's a wonderful point--identity politics inherent in the use of pronouns. Thank you for bringing that up.

For me, that section bled my own sense of boundaries for myself. Second person is uncommon in books, so like with Fifth Season, it made that scene very personal, like a disassociation with a past I barely remembered but that left me so lonely. And then the almost hurt, almost bashful transition to "I" that claimed back space in Butcher's mind for his own desires.

Really, really, well done.

[Dawn F]

I've hesitated to do this as you're all enjoying this book and I feel like a complete idiot, but I'd actually really love it if someone could write up a summary/synopsis of what happened in this book. (view spoiler)[ I understand the first two chapters, Rydra being contacted by the military about this code that's really a language, and her going to her doctor to talk things over. I loved her description of how she can read body language as clear as an actual language. That made a lot of sense. I also got that she wanted to go and see these people who spoke this strange language of Babel-17 and that she had connections to get a ship and then... things got hazy for me. Suddenly there was dragons fighting and I was just kinda lost from there. So... would someone be willing to outline when and where things happened? I'd be really grateful and offer to iron shirts and send Oreos and stuff! (hide spoiler)]

[Alex]

Rose wrote: "But like, idk, I guess I might just feel that pronouns and how they spec..."

Absolutely! I completely agree with you there. I guess I was just expanding the idea you brought up. Pronouns, especially these days, are definitely a fascinating topic... I was surprised it was brought up by a 50 year old novel. I've considered what pronouns are appropriate for myself, as well.

[Alex]

@Allison Agreed. So easy to internalize that scene, which is incredible given how difficult second-person narrative is to write. Write well, anyway.

[Alex]

What did you guys make of manipulating those with mental health conditions for battle? I mean, it seems to be consensual, but... *grumbles* I don't know how I feel about it.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Dawn, my understanding of the book is as follows.

(view spoiler)[Rydra is contacted to decode enemy chatter. She says it's not code, it's language and badgers her way into a commission to translate it. Having previously been part of a famous space-faring triple, she knew how crews worked. She went to a bar known for the fights between prospective captains, and there found Navigators (well most of them) and their last captain.

Body augmentation is fairly normal for the "Transport" side of trade, so we have all sorts of people who've done some pretty impressive things to themselves, including fangs, wings, spurs, and body morphing to the point that the person can no longer stand upright for long periods of time. This scene introduces the concept that this future has downloaded human consciousness, that polyamory is frowned upon but helpful in jobs that require complete synchronity, and that games/audience investment is another way we communicate.

(PS, I really liked the succubus scene!)

Crew finally assembled, she clocks out, and is sabotaged. They get to the military installment, where Rydra believes the next attack will occur and we meet the Baron and Baroness. She tries to figure out where the attack will be and is surprised at the dinner party which kills the Baron.

Rydra and crew flee, only to find they've been sabotaged again and are about to run into a neutron star. Just in time, Butcher senses them and re-routes them to the custody of his ship.

Rydra and the captain of this new ship come to an uneasy peace, made more amicable when Rydra is able to read a battle and then an assassination attempt. She also realizes that Butcher does not use pronouns and speaks her language sort of using the syntax of Babel-17. She attempts to teach him pronouns and in the process realizes he's basically programmed to think in the language that's so precise it almost works like magic. They beat off new enemies, lose their ship and try to make it to HQ. With her last conscious thought, Rydra solves Babel-17 and works to give the answer of it to Mocky so that he can untangle what she sees is about to happen.

As anticipated, the perfection of language plus Rydra's innate ability and Butcher's longtime training means that they can understand each other so perfectly that they start to think as one, but get confused about how to handle it. So, Mocky tortures them apart, where we learn that the language is effectively mind control plus a new way of thinking that makes all thought process streamlined and they unleashed it on an Alliance operative who can be anyone, kill anyone and walk away. They made unwilling moles of those who spoke the language (for example, Rydra was the saboteur--all attacks had happened after she spent hours thinking in Babel-17). To break its hold on her and Butcher, she interjects a few new bits of grammar (like pronouns) and makes Babel-18, which can be used the same way but with the imposed boundaries of self. (hide spoiler)]

[Chris]

Christopher wrote: "I wasn't sure if it should rhyme with "hydra" or if it was Ree-drah or even Rid-ra."

It's pronounced "Mary Sue." :D

I too noticed the similarity to "right or wrong," and that phrase did come up later, so it might not be a coincidence.

Allison wrote: "The story itself was mostly not there"

I agree.

[Oleksandr]

I finished the book yesterday and plan to jump in to discuss and now a little teaser. Actually a language defines thought hypothesis is known as a strong version of Sapir–Whorf hypothesis and here you can find more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguis...

[Dawn F]

Allison wrote: "Dawn, my understanding of the book is as follows.

Thank youuuuu! That definitely cleared up a few blanks for me! By the way I do agree that this book with its ideas and style feels remarkably new and modern and not at all like it was written in 1966.

[Dawn F]

Chris wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I wasn't sure if it should rhyme with "hydra" or if it was Ree-drah or even Rid-ra."

It's pronounced "Mary Sue." :D

LOL!

Chris wrote: "I too noticed the similarity to "right or wrong," and that phrase did come up later, so it might not be a coincidence."

Rydra does explain about the binary language of computers, ON/OFF, yes/no, right/wrong. Interesting comparison.

[Rose]

Chris wrote: It's pronounced "Mary Sue." :D


I honestly didn't see Rydra as a Mary Sue at all! I thought she felt very real and complex. Extraordinary, certainly, but not at Mary-Sue levels.


@Jemppu you said something really interesting elsewhere about the sheer number of different covers available for Babel-17, and I noticed that too! How cool is it to see all these different illustrations from across the years? I love it when books have so many different covers, because then you can see what different illustrators (or their clients) considered a focal point for them, or learn how they interpreted the character and how that may have shaped people's perceptions. At least two of the available covers have scantily clad busty blonde women on them, which is so weird because that's not Rydra to me.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yeah, I didn't feel a Mary Sue either. We see her work hard at her translations, we know she screws up and is made uncomfortable. It's not a terribly character-driven narrative, but as a vehicle for discussing language, and in the limited ways we see her, she felt way less of an authorial wish fulfillment/power fantasy than, say, Baru Cormorant.

[Jemppu]

Rose wrote: "...I love it when books have so many different covers, because then you can see what different illustrators (or their clients) considered a focal point for them..."

Indeed!

I seem to go on... so, cut for length. (view spoiler)[

Surprisingly hard to pick one that would be fully pleasing, but this is possibly my favourite in term of overall design. Bit dull perhaps - nothing quite jumps out -, but both illu and layout well executed:

Has more of an artbook cover feel to it though - nothing much to catch eye quickly and entice a reader to pick it up.

This is nice too in all it's retro glory (Revue!), and eyecatching colors - frustratingly tightly laid as it is and could've used a bit more varied choice of fonts in the title.

Stock image though? As curiously there's this from down under (not listed on GR variants of A World Out of Time). Who 'borrowed' from whom?

Art by Tony Roberts, I believe.

This is possibly my favourite of the scantily clad women.

Pose reminds me of one particular Tom Jung poster ;)

And this, the ridiculously clichéd, metal bikini one, that got me to pay attention to these in the first place (and almost laugh out loud)

(props for credited artist though!)

Both masterfully painted! (Though I will refrain from going on about the choice of fonts and the layouts here 🤐).

And the subject should be viewed with a bit benefit of the doubt too: coming from the era when it was considered revolutionary for women to go around in mini skirts and short shorts.

I feel this warrants a mention too as a nice painting, but I wonder about the demographic to get intrigued by this derelict shipyard (or by the lazy layout 'design' of "let's just type with what ever font comes by default"). I suspect another one of publisher's 'stock scifi illustrations' to just slap on what ever.


Quick fire round:

So 90's it hurts.


...okay? Was there a dust cover with the title at least? Or was this in braille?


What? I don't remember... (also: this bargain bin cover design 9_9)


Babel-17 by Bablo.


Bauhaus-17! (referring to the style of the typeface). Do like the illu, but again, is it for this?


Bauhaus-17. A++ for unoriginality.


What?? (there might be an idea there, but what ever it is, it gets lost amidst the layout choices)


"a science fiction novel" - nice design for a vintage can label.


Yeah, I get what you're going for, but at least use some color, on the title perhaps. This will just confuse the QR-code reader - if it ever gets picked up and as far as the checkout.

...okay, I'll stop here. I could go on forever about these.

As an idea, I feel I do prefer the ambiguity of the purely graphic depictions, where the illustration won't be there to suggest anything of the world or the characters and all is left for the reader to interpret.
(hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

LOL Jemina! I love the commentary on the art. Especially the quick fire ones XD

[Alex]

It said somewhere near the beginning -- from the point of view of the general, I think -- that Rydra has East Asian features. I pictured her as Asian (Korean, actually) all the way through.

[Jemppu]

Alex wrote: "It said somewhere near the beginning -- from the point of view of the general, I think -- that Rydra has East Asian features. I pictured her as Asian (Korean, actually) all the way through."

Yes, it did! (Got me in the mind space of Blade Runner too, is what that did). You can kind of, perhaps see that in some of the covers at least.

[Christopher]

What I liked about this book:

- Creativity (ghost crew, language as a weapon, etc.)
- Sense of inclusion (characters encouraged to be themselves no matter how different that might be, e.g. the officer who realizes he's interested in relationships with ghosts and wants to get a dragon on his shoulder)

What didn't work for me:
- The plot, just felt a bit too meandering and I had a hard time getting into the Butcher's story line
- Book felt dated at times (e.g. kids on the ship play marbles)

[Anthony]

Rose wrote: "The scene in part 3 between Rydra and the Butcher had my head spinning in the best possible way. How do you explain the grammatical concept of the first and second person pronouns to someone who ha..."

I just read this scene and was so moved and electrified by it. What an achievement for Delany to take something as abstract as language and identity and create a scene that brought to life the very personal impact of ignorance awakening into knowledge.

[Chris]

The list of Rydra's extraordinary skills and accomplishments is ridiculously long. Several characters instantly fall in love with her. Rydra is based on Delany's then-wife.

Part of the popular definition of Mary Sue depends on analysis of the author's thought process. We don't have access to that, and authors can deceive, intentionally or through poor insight into themselves. I prefer to look at how the character functions in the book. Is she exceptionally competent, far above and beyond everyone else around her? Yep. Is she universally admired, even loved? Yep. Does she single-handedly drive the story, with nary a wound or moral failing or emotional collapse? Yep.

I am not especially adamant about the term "Mary Sue." Perhaps better terms fit. Nor do I mean it as critique. I am agnostic about how it affects the quality of a story. Maybe skillful authors can use such overpowered protagonists to good effect. I don't think that Delany did so here, but I imagine that many disagree.

[Anthony]

I just finished it and really loved it. It was so invigoratingly original and the writing had so much imaginative energy coursing through it that reading anything else right now would feel almost too earthbound and mundane.

But read other things I will!

Very glad that this wound up on our shelf.

[Karin]

While this was somewhat gripping, and I found the linguistic part extremely interesting, I can't say that I liked this book much. It was good to see a female Captain in a book written in the first half of the 1960s, and to see all of this extreme plastic surgery in a book predating so many contemporary ones (y/a Uglies, for eg), but I did not love this book--2 stars. Too bad, because the pacing was good, etc.

[Pat the Book Goblin]

I agree Karin. I didn’t like it that much either. I did like the whole Babel idea and how she was a telepath but overall I thought it was a bit boring.

[Wen]

Alison wrote: "Favourite scenes so far (I still have 1.5 hrs to listen) - Dinner with the Baron and Rydra trying to explain "I" and "You" to The Butcher

Not so much techno-blabber, but I want a book about Rydra'..."

I want more Rydra's letters:)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Chris, I see your point. I think for me Mary Sue has a negative connotation meant to make the author's qualities seem superlative, so that's my hesitation. I do agree she's competent and beloved but...well...if you can read minds, it'd be easy to mold yourself into a desirable person, wouldn't it? I guess that's where it differs for me. I can see why she's so good at the things we see her excel at, and, much like in satires, her purpose is less to be a compelling "character" and more to be the example through which the author explores his ideas. In my classes, we used "widgets" for whatever thing we needed as an example. She's the widget. A likable one, though!

[Kaa]

The term "Mary Sue" gets my hackles up a bit (I'll spare you the rant, but I think the whole concept is sexist), but I take your point, Chris. I personally love Rydra, and I also can see how her ultracompetence could be annoying. I agree with Allison that Rydra and many of the other characters seem to function more symbolically than as actual people. For me, that itself is really interesting in a book about communication and representation of ideas.

Alison wrote: "Not so much techno-blabber, but I want a book about Rydra's polyamorous marriage and all of their adventures together. Such a tease!"

Yes, I would read that book! I loved the conversation between her and Ron so much.

Alex wrote: "What did you guys make of manipulating those with mental health conditions for battle? I mean, it seems to be consensual, but... *grumbles* I don't know how I feel about it."

You mean the Jebel Tarik battle formations? I read those as metaphorical, but I still felt weird about it. Or is there another part I'm forgetting?

[Anthony]

I thought the names given the participants in the battles were just fun code names. I don’t think that any command was meant literally. It was just another example of using language and names in new and clever ways. That was my take on those sequences, anyway...

[Alex]

@Kaa and Anthony -- Hmmm. I guess I read it more literally. The society they live in seems to be very interested in "psyche reports" on people, so I guess I assumed many of these people lived in/were driven to the Snap because they couldn't get a job in mainstream society based on "less than desirable" psyche reports. I may have been reading too much into it, but that's where my understanding went.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yeah, I saw it as code and something like nickname-ification. As far as we could see, the groups weren't split up beforehand, and the squadron names changed each battle. So, they knew something that we and Rydra couldn't pick up on--something that made inherent sense to them and was communicated enough to perform their jobs without explanation, like in-jokes but in war form.

[Alex]

Alrighty. You've convinced me -- I totally misread that!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I think it's an interesting take, though! I mean, surely Butcher wasn't without some form of mental distress. Probably most of the rest wouldn't get a ship through the normal routes with their pysch indices. And if they use indices in general, what would that mean for their construction and use?

I have to think it wouldn't be soooooo stigmatic, because we know Rydra has been on ships before and has also gone through extensive therapy.

[Rose]

I think I interpreted that part as a kind of mesh between the two? As in, I viewed the ship as a kind of community that various neurodivergent peoples had forged for themselves on the outskirts of space, but they've still gotta defend themselves, so the 'code' exists as a way for them to easily mobilise, using language that would have been familiar to them. Less manipulative and more practical? I didn't feel any stigma on that level at all. I actually felt pretty happy with it, tbh.

As an aside, how neat is it that our protagonist is an intelligent, neurodivergent Asian lady who'd been in a poly relationship and expressed interest in entering another if there was a woman involved? In a book published in 1966? Hell yeah this is absolutely my jam.

[Kaa]

@Rose: I like that interpretation! And yes, so freaking cool. I will adore this book forever because I first read it at a time in my life when I really needed it, but fortunately for me it also holds up well to re-reading.

[Alex]

@Rose I like that take on it! And yes, looking back, I enjoyed the idea that there was seemingly no stigma attached.

As an addendum to your aside -- I just read the bio of Delany at the end of my copy, and it turns out he was black, gay, and was in an open marriage with a woman. I love his characters, even if there wasn't too much of a plot to be had!

[Jemppu]

Okay. As I'm yet to get any after the fact epiphany about this, it feels I must just accept it for what it was and move on.

Loved the concept of Babble-17 Babel-17 the language. And enjoyed the interactions and relationships between the characters. But somewhere along the line the overall plot just got lost on me. Was it presented in too incoherent a style, perhaps - certainly the writing seemed all over at times.

Would gladly read of more linguistic ruminations, and learn all there is to know of the societal structures of this world, without the need for war or assassination plots.

[Sara]

I wonder if the author intended the name "Rydra Wong" to sound like "Right or Wrong."