"Babel-17" First Impressions *No Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hallo! Kommen wir to discuss our language scifi book du mois!

Please leave spoilers, including anything about character actions or growth, and plot for the full discussion thread up on the 7th.

Tak!

[Gabi]

:D Nice one, Allison!

My first impression as per chapter 3: I'm confused.

[Jemppu]

Yup. "I'm confused" sums up both my initial reaction as well as the overall experience. I think I might need to try again with bit more concentration, if time allows :D There were some interesting bits of coherence in between about the linguistics.

[Anna]

Ooh, we should all post our first impressions in different languages, and then use a translator app and see what we end up with. Or better yet, the other way around. Go to Google Translate, type in your comment in a language that's not English, and then post the suggested "English".

I tried it with Finnish to English, and the only funny part was a "buzzing ear", and it's actually quite accurate, so I withdraw my suggestion.

I'm waiting for a physical copy from the library, because the audio version was "buzzing ear" :D Meaning I loathe the narration, the voice is so deep and gravely it gives me the creeps.

[Jemppu]

Jep, "Olen ulalla" kärjistää hyvin niin ensivaikutelman kuin kokonaiskuvankin tästä kirjaelämyksestä. Tarvinnee katsastaa tämä uudestaan paremmalla ajalla :D Väliin kuitenkin mahtui joitain mielenkiintoisia kieliopillisia välähdyksiä.

(have fun with that - the language gets a mention in the book after all - which is not a spoiler)

[Anna]

Huomasitko Jemppu heti kun äidinkieli alkoi vilahdella tekstissä? Mulla kesti hetken, mietin että ei kai englannissa oo kaikkia näitä sijamuotoja?! :D

(Sorry, I will stick to English from now on!)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I love this. I can't wait to translate everything!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

J'ai bien aimé le premier chapitre. Le mystère de la langue et les personnages m'intéresse absolument. C'est clair que ceci n'est pas exactement comme les autres histoires du temps ou du genre.

[Rachel]

Ooh my French reading skill is still functioning how about that!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Haha nice Rachel! Amanda, I do think at least one of those books should do something for you. I hope both!

[Gabi]

LOL! Have to pass over the Finish, but at least I can still read French.

Mir gefällt der Ton der Erzählung und die sprachwissenschaftlichen Fachbegriffe. Die eigentliche Handlung bleibt mir jedoch noch ein Rätsel.

[Jemppu]

@Gabi; cut for OT, not spoilers (view spoiler)[Always wondered about the German capitalization of nouns, but never thought it in these terms until now: the frequency in which one has to hit Shift when writing German seems quite frustrating <:D Is there perhaps a whole another department of German Grammar Police, who monitor the proper use of Caps, much like there are people who decry lack of punctuation? How much bigger crime does all this make using ALL CAPS in German? German autocorrect must obviously capitalize words automatically then too... (hide spoiler)] 🤔

Sorry, all new thoughts coming worth. To skip back to the topic: I agree, the actual plot of this book is the real Hä!?

@Anna More OT: (view spoiler)[I will never cease to be amazed by people who learn Finnish conjugations by the book!

Puhelisimmekohan yhtä vaivatta, jos olisi pitänyt erikseen opiskella.*

*"( I ) wonder if we would keep/be speaking as effortlessly, if (we) had to have studied separately." (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

@Jemina: (view spoiler)[ If you grow up with the language and with writing it (by hand or with the keyboard), the capitalization comes absolutely naturally. I type with 10 fingers at quite high speed, and hitting the shift key is no problem at all. No need for any grammar police or such stuff. And, yes, the autocorrect corrects the capitalization (cause of that sometimes nouns in my English texts are with capitals as well,) (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Gabi, findest du die Sprache schwer ist wann spielt er mit die Regln von Grammatik? Habe ich Deutsch sehr streng gefunden. (Es tut mir leid, gibt es 5 Jahren seit sprache ich Deutsch :-S)

Und die Andere auch...


kun tekijä rikkoo englantia, pidätkö sen vaikea ymmärtää? (This part is Google translate, which previously explained that angle brackets were safety-space-markers, so I'm very curious how this will work.)

[Anna]

English to Finnish is way harder for a machine translator, so that is by no means grammatically correct, but I do understand what you're asking. Mostly because I read the German part :D

I've talked about this previously when reading Karen Memory. I don't find it hard to understand the text if the English isn't perfect, but it's tedious to read! Maybe it's because I automatically try to do the accent or style of speech in my head (and usually fail, but keep trying), and it makes my reading speed slower. I tend to like those books better on audio, because the narrator does the work for me.

[Gabi]

Allison wrote: "Gabi, findest du die Sprache schwer ist wann spielt er mit die Regln von Grammatik? Habe ich Deutsch sehr streng gefunden. (Es tut mir leid, gibt es 5 Jahren seit sprache ich Deutsch :-S)

Und die ..."

I only understood the grammar rules completely once I took up Latin (7th grade). The schoolsystem back then was more into literature study than into grammar in German, but very grammar oriented in Latin.
(and let's just say: I'm happy, that I didn't have to learn German - this is certainly not an easy language to learn)

Edit: Just read Anna's answer - and I think I misunderstood you, Allison. If I find it difficult to understand a text that plays around with grammar? I never read such a text in German. But in English there was the Midnight Robber, which I found very easy to understand, cause it resembled a bit my false use of English.

[Anna]

Gabi, I was replying to what I thought Allison was asking in google translated Finnish, so I may be mistaken!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Do they have Babel-17 translated?? God, I think this book would just not work in German...in French it'd be weird. Possibly trite.

I'd be so curious how they do it, and what words they use to demonstrate the words currently in the non-English languages.

And I know what you mean, Gabi! I didn't fully understand English grammar (if I even can say that I do) until I learned other languages.

[Gabi]

Anna wrote: "Gabi, I was replying to what I thought Allison was asking in google translated Finnish, so I may be mistaken!

"

ROFL!!! Is this really so?

[Anna]

Gabi if you mean the image, yup!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

hahahaha

And in American English, this is a grammatically correct sentence:

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

[Anna]

I used to lurve (Finnish) grammar in school, it's super complicated, and I made it a point to always get maximum points in grammar tests. I've never really studied English grammar though, so I happily break the rules all the time! And I recently realized I've forgotten all about Finnish grammar, too, as I was trying to explain it to someone who's studying it. But it's still interesting, and I love learning all kinds of details about other languages anf their different grammar rules.

[Gabi]

Anna wrote: "Gabi if you mean the image, yup!"

Yes, I meant the image. This is priceless!


@Allison: there is a German translation of Babel 17, yet I'm reading the English book, so I have no idea how this was translated. I should have a look, if the library has it (which I don't think with our provincial town, but it's worth a look)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

There are no rules in English! I think that's why they don't teach us them.

Go ahead, finish this sentence: where does "only" go.

She told him that she loved him.

[Dawn F]

Lol that’s what I learned too in school, English has very little grammar!

And now I’ll hop onto my laptop so I can actually read all your spoiler tags haha.

[Gabi]

Allison wrote: "There are no rules in English! I think that's why they don't teach us them.

Go ahead, finish this sentence: where does "only" go.

She told him that she loved him."

That's why English is the only out of the 7 languages I started learning, that I somehow can use. I just can go on speaking without too much thought, folks will understand me. (they may laugh, but they will understand ;) )

[Jemppu]

@Anna "kuusi palaa"

Classic :D As is this gem of a possible exchange, matching the Buffalo one (or the one English also has about the ship shipping ship shipping ships):

Kokoo koko kokko kokoon.
Koko kokkoko kokoon?
Koko kokko kokoon.

Put together the whole bonfire (Put up the bonfire).
The whole bonfire together?
The whole bonfire together.

(noteworthy: Finnish pronunciation differentiates between double and single consonants)

[Dawn F]

Allison wrote: "Tak!"

Selv tak!

I'm laughing so much over the language talk here XD And that image of the Finnish language! I'll have to send it to my Finnish production manager at work!

Gabi wrote: "Mir gefällt der Ton der Erzählung und die sprachwissenschaftlichen Fachbegriffe. Die eigentliche Handlung bleibt mir jedoch noch ein Rätsel.

Haha Gabi, that's exactly how I feel!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sorry, Dawn, the part in spoilers, while you're right to tag it, is stuff we don't put in this thread. Can you edit out the specifics and then we can have fun dismantling all of it in a couple days?

This one's shorter, so I might actually put the full discussion thread up sooner, depending! I can't wait to hear all the thoughts!

[Jemppu]

Continuing on the language talk... some curious things about English.

One of the most obvious is it's seeming lack of hyphenation rules. In Finnish words have very strict rules how they should be divided and that is how kids initially learn to read, TA-VAA-MAL-LA.

But the most recent realization has come with these ebooks: the punctuation differs a bit too, from what I remember having been taught. English seem to note quotations like this: "This is a quote," and this tells the action.

Finnish puts it like: "This is a quote", and this tells the action.

This is fine still, but when it really bothers me is at the end of a sentence, where I'd like to see a period, but English seems to put the quotation marks even after that:
"This is madness." <---!!! surely this is not how you end a sentence :D

Also, Finnish quotation marks are both 'upwards', not the first pair 'upside down' <:D (but that bit was no news after years of battling with English keyboard settings when laying down Finnish documents).

@Allison
Cut for length (view spoiler)[
I like this example. This is something that often causes head scratching, as English seems to like to place such words in oddest of places sometimes - or at least some of it's users do. In spots where they seem to indicate a different nuance one would imagine was intended.

With all of it's ridiculously meticulous conjugations and punctuation rules, Finnish is quite lax with word orders, though some forms may sound bit 'old timey' or poetic or change the connotation a bit.

"She told him that she loved him." <-- hrmph ;)

This sentence brings up another difference between English and Finnish: in English you know the genders by simply stating the pronoun. In Finnish the word "hän" is unisex lacking the he/she distinction, and one would need to specify: "Nainen kertoi miehelle..." -"(the) woman told (the) man..."

As for the placement of "only"... it brings worth nuances.

Only she told him that she loved him.
Vain/Ainoastaan nainen kertoi miehelle rakastavansa häntä.

She only told him, that she loved him.
Nainen kertoi miehelle vain/ainoastaan rakastavansa häntä.

She told only him, that she loved him
Nainen kertoi vain/ainoastaan miehelle rakastavansa häntä.

She told him only, that she loved him.
Nainen kertoi vain/ainoastaan miehelle, jotta rakastaa häntä.

She told him, only that she loved him.
Nainen kertoi miehelle vain/ainoastaan rakastavansa häntä.

She told him, that only she loved him.
Nainen kertoi miehelle, että vain/ainoastaan hän rakastaa miestä.

She told him that she loved only him.
Nainen kertoi miehelle, jotta rakastaa vain/ainoastaan häntä.

She told him that she loved him only.
Nainen kertoi miehelle, jotta rakastaa häntä ainoastaan. (hide spoiler)]

[Dawn F]

@Allison Sorry, of course!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I think I'm going to make a "tell us about your language" thread because I love this so much and it's tangential to Babel but probably shouldn't last the whole month.

That's so very interesting, Jemina, I have so many questions! Finnish is on my list to try to learn, but I didn't get past the word that could mean tree or fish depending on how *long* you say a letter-sound. And then I got intimidated and put it away lol

Bringing things back to Babel, I liked how organically we moved through the language parts.

[Alex]

I'm writing these first impressions fresh, without having looked at anybody else's comments or reviews. Not sure if any of this is "spoilerish" -- I doubt it -- but I'll put a warning here anyway.

The characters and story, two chapters in, are interesting and certainly makes me want to continue reading, but it's really the concepts presented in Babel-17 which have caught my attention. Language as any transmission of thoughts/ideas, whether verbal or not. Language as not necessarily perfectly representing those thoughts/ideas. Language itself as a shaper of thoughts/ideas and the way we perceive existence around us. Take Latin, for example: it's an extremely precise language, which makes it excellent for debate You say what you mean, and you mean what you say -- there's very little in the way of poetic device. Most scientific terminology derives from Latin. Imagine, though, having Latin as your first language -- it would certainly colour how you express your perceptions of the world... and it might very well colour the formation of your brain/thoughts, if that's how you learned to think.

Anyway, these concepts aren't new to me, per se. I've studied them before, and even seen them considered in science fiction ("Shaka, when the walls fell.”) But what IS new to me is the idea of language as... something else. It's still early in the story, but I'm intrigued to discover how things work out.

[Alex]

And now, reading the others, I feel totally off-topic...

[Jemppu]

Alex wrote: "And now, reading the others, I feel totally off-topic..."

I think you might be the only one on topic here. Well done :D

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yes, Alex, great thoughts!

We tend to keep this thread *extremely general* because some folks are so spoilerphobic they don't even read blurbs. So, while I agree that nothing you've said would be a real life spoiler, if you could take out the bit about what's "new" to you, I'd very much appreciate it :)

[Alex]

Done. I'll try not to talk quite so much next time!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

You're good! This is the one place we're this paranoid about details--everywhere else this would be totally fine. And don't talk less, you say it so well! :)

[Dawn F]

Perhaps opening the spoiler thread a bit earlier is a good idea XD

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

lol I am definitely getting that impression ^^

[Wastrel]

Jemppu: the punctuation of direct speech is not a feature of "English" per se, but of different house styles among publishers. In general, one set of rules is used in the UK and another in the US, but cross-exposure means a lot of people use them inconsistently (including myself).

The 'traditional' rules are that in the UK you would write:
'I doubt that. "Albatross", surprisingly, is not in her vocabulary. "In general," she said to me the other day, "I call them giant petrels." I don't think', he said, "that she is very bright."
But in the USA you would write:
"I doubt that. 'Albatross,' surprisingly, is not in her vocabulary. 'In general,' she said to me the other day, 'I call them giant petrels.' I don't think," he said, "that she is very bright."

That is: British style uses ' for outer quotes and " for inner quotes, puts punctuation marks inside the quotes if they occur in the speech being quoted but outside the quote if they occur only in the speech doing the quoting. American style reverses the order of quotation mark types, and puts punctuation marks inside the quote regardless of their origin. British-style ordering is used in the Commonwealth, but non-UK Commonwealth countries commonly use American double quotes.

However, 'British' and 'American' are generalisation: it depends on house styles. A lot of British publishers use American-style ordering if they're publishing fiction, whereas some American publishers use British-style ordering if they're publishing non-fiction, particularly if they're publishing academic works. Some British houses may also use American double quotes, and some American houses may use British single quotes at least for some purposes (like titles).

-----


Everyone else: English has just as many grammatical rules as any other language - they're just less about morphology (English words have relatively little affixation, although it does have a truly vast number of irregular verbs to memorise) and more about word order, word choice, and the use of different tenses and aspects.

Those interested in English grammatical rules may wish to consult, for example, the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, a mere 1,900 pages long. Of course, this would be grossly inadequate to understand the various diverse dialects of English, which exist in a continuum with the formal standards...

[Kaa]

This is one of my favorite books, but it's been a few years since I read it so I'm really happy for an excuse to re-read it and talk about it with other people. I'm up to chapter 6 now, and I think ch. 3 is where I really started to fall in love with the book. The exploration of language is fascinating, but I also love the characters and Delany's take on space travel.

[Rose]

Ich finde dass, dieser Roman sehr interessant ist, aber ich bin jetzt ein bisschen krank, deshalb ich sehr müde bin. Ich kann mich nicht konzentrieren. Aber ich mag es!

I haven't reached any of the hardcore language stuff yet, but I'm really interested in the characters so far! I can't get super stuck into it right now, though, because my actual language learning needs my full attention today.

[Jemppu]

Rose wrote: "...ich sehr müde bin. Ich kann mich nicht konzentrieren. ..."

(how did I understand this? I don't know German!) But same! Attempted this in the middle of a night, half asleep - made even less sense.

I'm still hoping someone who did make some sense of it to explain it :D

edit: and the bit that clearly escaped my comprehension, until Gabi's reply! Yes, get well, Rose <:)

[Gabi]

@Rose: Ich wünsche Dir gute Besserung!

[Rose]

@Jemina it's definitely a book that requires all your focus. I don't see myself being able to skim through it on a few hours of sleep like I normally do. And thank you!

@Gabi Danke!! Es ist nur Sorge über der Kunst, die ich gepostet habe. Es macht mir so nervös und dass gibt mir Bauchschmerzen. Aber ich fühle besser jetzt!

[Dawn F]

I think I'll need someone to explain this book to me when I'm done XD

[Patricia]

I am loving this book! Language related to thought or the other way around has been an interest to me since I was a young adult. In my 70’s now. I’m not very far into the book. Just started it this morning but it is so compelling. I’ve had to reread several passages noting that my mind wanders at times. Not because I’m bored but new ideas takes me down new pathways of thinking. Looking forward to the discussions.

[Jamesboggie]

I read this early in the year. Looking forward to reading people's thoughts.

[Oleksandr]

Ну якщо вже усі почали балакати дивними мовами, до додам вам у стрічку трішки слов'янської. Книжка досить цікава, відчувається її написання у психоделічні 60-ті :)