October Book Discussion is OPEN!

[Bonnie G.]

Happy October!

I went into this read with high hopes. I really disliked the first third but I held on because:

1) I appreciated the multidimensional portrayal of a woman with a severe anxiety disorder and PTSD (Her diagnosis isn't named in the book, but this seemed pretty clear to me. I am sort of baffled as to why people think she has an Autism Spectrum Disorder. There is nothing in the description of her behaviors that points to an ASD from my perspective. I am not an expert, but I have for some years trained people on the spectrum on intrviewing and workplace behaviors, and have several close freinds with kids with ASDs now in their teens and 20's whom I have known most or all of their lives. I would love to hear from others on their impressions)

2) I needed a lighter more entertaining read, and several friends assured me it was just that. It was compared by several to Where'd You Go Bernadette, which was a super fun read. Don't get me wrong. The subject matter is not light at all, in fact it is quite heartbreaking in parts. By "light" I mean that there is some humor, and that this is a super easy read that requires little mental engagement from the reader. I read this while going through a job search/change, a cross country move, despairing over the general state of the country and the world, and going through some strange boy drama. I was not in the right frame of mind to jump into Tolstoy (Anna Karenina had been my original plan for packing.)

3) I needed to facilitte this discussion.

I was immediately annoyed with the book because Eleanor's behavior and knowledge of social conventions and current trends is so inconsistent. She is clearly fully up to date on current grooming rituals, but unaware that one is supposed to tip a pizza delivery person and clean up one's own space at McDonalds. There is a lot of that. The author seems to have decided that Eleanor's level of social savvy in any situation will depend on whatever readers are likely to find most amusing. I was also a little bugged by the fact that many people wanted to make friends with this closed off and extremely unpleasant woman. I am not blaming her, she is a victim. That said, regardless of the source of her unpleasantness, she is unpleasant and people are not likely to line up to hang with someone who shows disdain for them and all the things in which they find pleasure.

But. The book was sweet and sympathetic without being over the top treacly like so many books of this type, and I ended up feeling good, feeling hope, without feeling that loose ends had been tied up for the sake of closure. The end clearly indicates a sequel is in the works, and I have no interest in reading it, but I enjoyed my bit of time with this enough and it kept me good company as I packed for my move.

I was left with some questions:

1. Why do we think Eleanor kept up the "contact with her mother?" It could not have been comforting given the nature of the "conversations."

2. Why is Raymond so devoted to Eleanor? Is he just a kind soul?

3. Why does Eleanor come to want more interaction with others? It doesn't mostly seem pleasant for her.

[Alicia]

I agree with you completely. So many people I know loved this book! But if you hadn't said things improved, I would have DNFd. As it was, I only made it to the end because I wanted to see if my theory on the phonecalls was correct. And it was.

I loathed the way the author played Elinor's social maladjustment for laughs in a way that felt quite ableist. And I agree, she seems to have PTSD, maybe a dissociative disorder, a whole raft of trauma-based things but not ASD. It shits me to tears the way the media has conditioned us to think a lack of understanding of social cues = autistic.

So inconsistent in characterisation - "trained" by her mother and the system to be good and quiet and doing the right thing, but incredibly rude and unpleasant to people (who then persist for no particularly identifiable reason). Clearly aware of the notion of brand names and advertising, and actually very brand-loyal but expecting Bobbi Brown to be at the counter? Refuses to discuss her trauma with her therapist but is quite happy to name rape and domestic violence to Raymond.

And the way things are shown to improve for her when she gets her hair cut and starts to dress more fashionably gets on my last nerve.

[CDB]

I think both of you are raising great points about the author's inconsistencies in what Eleanor knows/doesn't know or how she acts (I remember being initially shocked at her alcohol consumption because it didn't seem to "fit" with everything else we'd been told thus far). Ultimately, though, I actually think that makes sense - people are inconsistent, and so are how people respond traumatic injuries and events. What feels "normal" is supposed to be upended and make us uncomfortable, and for me, it did.

I was shocked when the mum twist came. Had figured out the sister, obviously, but I really wasn't expecting it and am SO glad that as a result this wasn't yet another book where I was sitting around waiting for the twist - fortunately this was one that I didn't really know anything about going in.

All in all, I enjoyed it well enough and was VERY impressed this is the author's debut novel. It isn't one of my favorite books of 2018, but I'm glad I read it.

[Bonnie G.]

Alicia wrote: "I agree with you completely. So many people I know loved this book! But if you hadn't said things improved, I would have DNFd. As it was, I only made it to the end because I wanted to see if my the..."

I am so impressed you figured out the phone calls, Alicia! I am with you CDBS -- I had no idea. I still don't understand why Eleanor would keep her mother in her life, no matter what that entailed. I know that abused children love their parents and fight to be with them because at least its an anchor, but this seemed a bit less logical.

I also am glad you said that about ASD, It makes me crazy. I am so happy people know a bit about autism, its important they do. However, lots of things, some entirely benign, can lead to lack of engagement with others. I defy a person not very well versed in clinical psychology to identify the behavior differences between someone on the high-functioning part of the spectrum vs. someone with severe social anxiety disorder. I work in higher ed, and every single time we have a withdrawn student people ask if we know if they are on the spectrum. Rant over.

While I mostly agree on the makeover thing, I believe deciding to get the makeover indicated she has opened herself to dealing with others. The change in attitude which led to the makeover, as much as the change in appearance, made a difference. Then after people responded to her in a more freindly manner and she noticed. I think people would respond more favorably to her when she did not look like a cave dweller. (I am rarely inclined to engage in light coversation with anyone over the age of 5 and under the age of 65 who wears velcro sneakers.) That positive engagement opened Eleanor up a bit. It was not a realisitic look at that transition, but it didn't bug me. Except for the fact people who already knew her changed their attitudes after the makeover. I didn't get that. For new people I get it, but if you already don't like someone, good highlights are not a game changer,

[Kris]

I just finished reading a few minutes ago. Initially, I wanted to give 5 stars, but after reading some of these comments, I think 4.

For the most part, unless a book is EGREGIOUSLY bad, I am a willing Suspender of DisBelief. I bought all the limitations, but in a certain sense, it reminded me of the television portrayal of Temperance Brennan on Bones... uneven social development, detachment, and also a product of the foster system. (I tried to read the books, but couldn't reconcile the book character to the show character.)

Armchair psychologist that I am, I would have diagnosed Eleanor with dissociative disorder (and perhaps even dissociative identity disorder (previously called multiple personalities) with the mother being a distinct separate personality). The mother's presence in her life continued because, despite the abuse, at some points, what her mother taught her kept her safe... In essence, her mother limited Eleanor's social circle to such a degree that she has Stockholm Syndrome. And, it's only after intensive therapy that those types of victims can really see that their abuser/kidnapper is actually bad and always meant them harm.

I actually think this book should come with a trigger warning. It was very hard to read, in places. But, I loved that Eleanor was unwilling to see her depression as something to be hidden, once she recognized what it was.

While I wanted Raymond to become her boyfriend, clearly she was not yet ready for the next step in their relationship. I loved his character.

ETA: I did think the phone calls were odd, and I was continually mulling over how/whether the mother could be incarcerated in a mental institute...

[Bonnie G.]

Kris wrote: "I just finished reading a few minutes ago. Initially, I wanted to give 5 stars, but after reading some of these comments, I think 4.

For the most part, unless a book is EGREGIOUSLY bad, I am a wi..."

Interesting perspective. I have never seen Bones, no not sure about that character, but the rest seems right. She seemed to have been fairly typical when young for a child charged with adult responsibilities. Isolation, survivor's guilt and grief are a tough combination to overcome. Maybe it is a form of Stockholm syndrome. She was kept isolated from everyone but her mother, and fed crazy stories she was expected to believe. It was in many ways a hostage situation. What an interesting perspective!

I am so glad people seem to have enjoyed the book. It was a 2.5 for me, rounded to a GR 3. I am thinking maybe next poll will have a book or two featuring characters with mental health challenges....

[Kris]

In case you are interested, the tv show Bones that the books are based off of are actually based on real life experiences. I think that's another reason that her personality didn't seem so far-fetched to me in its unevenness.
The characterization section of this actually does sound a lot like Eleanor. Maybe the author was a fan of the show!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempera...

[Bonnie G.]

Kris wrote: "In case you are interested, the tv show Bones that the books are based off of are actually based on real life experiences. I think that's another reason that her personality didn't seem so far-fetc..."

Thanks for sharing, Kris.

[Sara]

This was a 2.5 star book for me, mostly because of the issues you've all pointed out with Eleanor's characterization. Kris mentioned suspension of disbelief, and as a sci-fi/fantasy fan, that typically comes very easy to me, but this book broke it.

Her inconsistency just really...irritated me. For example, this woman reads a newspaper every day and does the crossword, listens to talk radio every night, and has no grasp of metaphor? Nope. Her obsessive behaviors, lack of empathy, and alcoholism felt consistent with severe abuse, but the "quirks" the author tried to throw on top were too convenient and unconvincing.

Maybe without that layer, I would have enjoyed it more. Additionally, I went in with much lighter expectations, so the suggested trigger warning would have better set me up for the story. Except for the final revelation about her mother, the "mysteries" about her past were too transparent to me to provide their own momentum through the book, so not being able to believe in the main character dropped it below the three star mark.

I will say I thought the overall writing was good, and the experience of her opening up was nice to witness. I hope it'll make a better movie than a book.

[Bonnie G.]

Sara wrote: "This was a 2.5 star book for me, mostly because of the issues you've all pointed out with Eleanor's characterization. Kris mentioned suspension of disbelief, and as a sci-fi/fantasy fan, that typic..."

It feels like we had very similar reading experiences. I don't read a lot of fantasy sci-fi, but I do have many favorite books which are not based in the real world and suspension of disbelief is easy for those books (Slaugherhouse Five, IQ84, Underground Railroad, and Never Let Me Go spring immediately to mind.) This book was very much rooted in the real world. In those books the inconsistency is intentional, here it seems contrived. Because of Eleanor's personality the story was, if anything, hyperreal. So things like the failure to grasp metaphor and the ignorance of basic bits of pop culture (and the strong command of others) are beyond absurd. (She reads a newspaper every day, she cannot be unaware of the consumer world outside Tesco.) I also was thinking it could make a good movie, and I hope I am right. Its certainly a meaty role.

I will say I am surprised by how many of us had issues. Given the 4+ on GR I thought I was going to be the Negative Nelly.

[Amy]

You are all amusing me - I think you'd be amazed at the things people (willfully or accidentally) remain unaware of in life. I have a friend who, whenever you bring up Taylor Swift, says "who?" - and he has an 11 year old daughter (willful ignorance). And my sister, who is 57, said that she had never heard the word pedant/pedantic until last month. She was a communications major and works in meeting planning - pedantry probably plays a pretty big role in her life.

[Bonnie G.]

Amy wrote: "You are all amusing me - I think you'd be amazed at the things people (willfully or accidentally) remain unaware of in life. I have a friend who, whenever you bring up Taylor Swift, says "who?" - a..."

I am sure pedantry plays a big role in her life, but that doesn't mean she calls it by name. I was a lawyer for over a decade and never recall the word being used by anyone at work, though certainly it was the heart and soul of our existence. As for Taylor Swift, that is a choice. I expressed sadness at the death of Mac Miller and no one in the room knew what I was talking about, even though all have teens just like me. They just aren't paying attention. Eleanor pays attention.

[Carolina]

I also did not like this book and was surprised by the high rating it got on GR, but at least now I found my peeps!
Eleanor as character is so inconsistent: we can never know what is part of her disorder and what’s not. I would have thought that being so trained to please she would be polite, but unaware of the subtleties of interactions. And the author did play on what would make us laugh. Also, I liked Raymond’s character but also found his patience and perseverance slightly unbelievable.

[Amy]

Anyway, back to the book - I'm surprised/not surprised that people would categorize Eleanor with ASD - it seemed pretty obvious to me that she had trauma-related issues, with maybe some OCD. But it seems that now, every quirky individual is labeled as being on the spectrum.

I did not think that people wanted to be friends with her, though - I thought that nosy people wanted to know what her deal was and why she was the way she was.

[Bonnie G.]

Carolina wrote: "I also did not like this book and was surprised by the high rating it got on GR, but at least now I found my peeps!
Eleanor as character is so inconsistent: we can never know what is part of her d..."

I just realized I hadn't commented on Raymond. Yes, he was lovely, but I agree totally unbeleivable. But also, I was rooting against romance as hard as I could because someone so jolly should not have been saddled with someone as humorless as Eleanor. There are other kind and humorless people for Eleanor to commit to. Friendship? Sure. We all have a complicated friend or two. But for a life partner, a nerdy prince charming like Raymond deserves more joy.

Also, for people wanting to be her friend, I was thinking of Laura, and the rest of the old man's family (was his name Sam? I can't recall) and Raymond, and his mother. And then after she was out for the depressive episode many of her work collegues. There were definitely some people who were just curious, but not all.

[Alicia]

Amy wrote: "You are all amusing me - I think you'd be amazed at the things people (willfully or accidentally) remain unaware of in life. I have a friend who, whenever you bring up Taylor Swift, says "who?" - a..."

That's a fairly patronising response.

[Rosanne]

I enjoyed seeing the progression in Eleanor’s character and her start to let people into her life. However, i appreciated that she did not loose all her quirks. I wanted to know more about Raymond’s personality and backstory. I was quite surprised with the mom twist. It was a great choice for my first book club selection.

[Alicia]

I really like this book AND I agree with all of the aforementioned critiques. Maybe I was willing to overlook a lot because it was such a quick and relatively light read and in a readable font (I switched to this book while I was in the middle of reading Persuasion in teeny, tiny font and it felt like a slog. Then I got to THE LETTER and all was better).

The inconsistencies in what Eleanor did or did not know about human behavior did make me wonder but I guess I chalked it up to author's discretion.

I thought Eleanor continued to speak with her mother because she craved her approval. When I got to that part, I had to note that this is the second book I've read this summer where the main character talks to someone who is dead and it isn't revealed to the audience for 3/4 of the book.

As to why Raymond was so invested in staying connected to her, I guess it was loneliness or maybe I'm just influenced because that's what the book jacket touted. It didn't seem like he thought of her as a project. If it makes it to the big screen, I would surmise that there will need to be more of a reason why Raymond wants to be her friend. It seems like such a basic storytelling note.

[Bonnie G.]

Alicia wrote: "I really like this book AND I agree with all of the aforementioned critiques. Maybe I was willing to overlook a lot because it was such a quick and relatively light read and in a readable font (I s..."

ITA about the film needing to build the foundation of the Raymond/Eleanor relationship and to build Raymond a bit more in general. I am so afraid they will turn it into a romance, and that would be a real shame.

Just curious, what was the other "talks to dead people" book you read? I kind of felt that was the most compelling thing about this book, that and Eleanor's therapy (which I wish was dealt with more deeply.)

[Alicia]

Bonnie wrote: "Alicia wrote: "I really like this book AND I agree with all of the aforementioned critiques. Maybe I was willing to overlook a lot because it was such a quick and relatively light read and in a rea..."

I sent you a message so as to not risk spoiling anyone else about the book I read.

[Bonnie G.]

Alicia wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "Alicia wrote: "I really like this book AND I agree with all of the aforementioned critiques. Maybe I was willing to overlook a lot because it was such a quick and relatively light re..."

Got it. Thanks, Alicia!

[Alicia]

*must remember that I am not the only Alicia*

[Alicia]

Alicia wrote: "*must remember that I am not the only Alicia*"

Same :)

[Bonnie G.]

Alicia wrote: "Alicia wrote: "*must remember that I am not the only Alicia*"

Same :)"

There are never extra Bonnies. I am jealous.

[Alicia]

It's just really confusing when I see above "Alicia wrote" and I think "When?"

[Bonnie G.]

We have had some interesting discussion about Raymond, but we haven't discussed What Raymond finds appealing about Eleanor? And why does Eleanor feel comfortable opening up to him? Is he just one of those guys looking for a damsel in distress? Or is there something else? Raymond doesn't seem lonely, so what is the deal?

[Alicia]

Eleanor feels sorry for him - I mean, he just sounds like your regular slightly schlubby IT guy to me - but she seems to feel a bit superior to him. I don't know if that helps her open up.

On his side, I think he's inherited his mother's love of adopting strays.

[Bonnie G.]

Alicia wrote: "Eleanor feels sorry for him - I mean, he just sounds like your regular slightly schlubby IT guy to me - but she seems to feel a bit superior to him. I don't know if that helps her open up.

On his ..."

Laura, who is described as being rather glamorous (as glamor is defined by decidedly unglamourous people) dates Raymond, and he breaks up with her. How schlubby can he be?

[Alicia]

Hey! Some of us have a soft-spot for schlubby IT guys!

[Sara]

I don't think we can trust Eleanor's initial impression of Raymond; she's not a reliable narrator. As her opinion of him improves, so does her physical description. He's also a genuinely kind person, which can be very attractive in a world of jerks.

As for his attraction to Eleanor, I agree with "adopting lost strays" being a part of it. She certainly makes an impression on people, with her mannerisms, which explains his initial curiosity. It doesn't seem like enough justification for how persistent he is in reaching out to her, but I guess the heart wants what it wants?

[Kris]

First, I think it's obvious that Eleanor is an unreliable narrator - and that couldn't be hammered home any further than when we find out that she hasn't actually been having conversations with her mother because she's been dead the whole time!

I think, apart from her scar, that Eleanor was probably pretty attractive, but her lack of adherence to "prettying herself up" and her weirdness and lack of social grace made people actually think, "She'd be pretty if..." which is why Laura wanted to get her hands on her hair... and why the department store lady sent her down to Bobbi Brown.

Not that it makes Raymond's attraction totally about that... but in the basest sense, you've got to find something attractive in the physicality of another to be "with" them - or at least I do. Eleanor's lack of veneer compared to Laura's total and complete veneer attracted Raymond. Laura was all about her physical projection, whereas Eleanor's brokenness and her seeming inability to be anything other than who she was in the moment made her more interesting and worth understanding.

Normally, I wouldn't either/or someone, but these are characters, and I think the point is that Raymond valued Eleanor's unusual perspective and non-reliance on cultural norms over Laura's "normality."

ETA: Raymond was likely not that shlubby but likely "hiding the hot" because it wasn't important to him.

[Kris]

Also, I TOTALLY think the movie will play up the romance. TOTALLY. And I'd make a bet that we get a kiss at the end.

[Bonnie G.]

So you are thinking Raymond had some physical interest in Eleanor? It felt platonic to me.

[Kris]

Can any man have a platonic interest in a woman??? ;) Kidding. Mostly.
For SURE, they will Hollywood-ize it, and it will have to be a budding romance. How else will it sell tickets?

[CDB]

Ugh, I will be so annoyed if they go there in the movie. One of the things I appreciated about the book was that it DIDN’T go there and made clear Eleanor still had a long, long way to go in her recovery.

[Bonnie G.]

CDBS wrote: "Ugh, I will be so annoyed if they go there in the movie. One of the things I appreciated about the book was that it DIDN’T go there and made clear Eleanor still had a long, long way to go in her re..."

I feel the same. The story that all people need to "cure" mental illness and personality disorders is love has been told before, and it is a really offensive and dangerous message.

[Bonnie G.]

Came across this article -- The author does NOT want this to be a romance, so hopefully the filmmakers will listen https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

[Pamela]

I finally came over to read these- I was so worried you all would be going on about how it was the greatest book of the year ever, as many seem to, and I would be all "she's inconsistent... a makeover saves her... love saves her too" and I would be the party pooper so glad to see everyone else seems to have the same impression. And totally did not see the twist- I was annoyed throughout "why doesn't she just stop taking calls from mom?"

In terms of Raymond, I don't think her description was too accurate. He got the fancy hairdresser lady.

[Bonnie G.]

Pamela wrote: "I finally came over to read these- I was so worried you all would be going on about how it was the greatest book of the year ever, as many seem to, and I would be all "she's inconsistent... a makeo..."

I am also (pleasantly) surprised that the GFY crew was not wild about this book. People love this book and I was nervous to start the discussion with my 2.5 to 3 star opinion. I still think it could make a good film, and its a great fit for Reese Witherspoon's brand. I pick Jason Segal for Raymond and Sally Hawkins for Eleanor.

[Pamela]

Bonnie wrote: I am also (pleasantly) surprised that the GFY crew was not wild about this book. People love this book and I was nervous to start the discussion with my 2.5 to 3 star opinion. I still think it could make a good film, and its a great fit for Reese Witherspoon's brand. I pick Jason Segal for Raymond and Sally Hawkins for Eleanor. ."

Ooo, that's good casting!

I have found books go through stages. The "Greatest Book ever released, only idiots don't love it stage." Then the backlash, And then it's just a book. I find I like reading books during the backlash because I go in with reasonable expectations, This book I went in in the first stage and felt like an alien for not loving.

[Bonnie G.]

Pamela wrote: "Bonnie wrote: I am also (pleasantly) surprised that the GFY crew was not wild about this book. People love this book and I was nervous to start the discussion with my 2.5 to 3 star opinion. I still..."

I have found I almost always dislike those books only idiots don't like. The Nightingale, The Husband's Secret, A Man Called Ove, The Seven Husbands of Eleanor Hugo -- ALL TERRIBLE (IMHO, but apparently I am an idiot.)

[Pamela]

Bonnie wrote: "Pamela wrote: "Bonnie wrote: I am also (pleasantly) surprised that the GFY crew was not wild about this book. People love this book and I was nervous to start the discussion with my 2.5 to 3 star o..."

I'm with you! I cried through the Nightingale but it reminded me too much of a JoJo Myers book. Ove annoyed me. And I never clicked with Eleanor Hugo- I kept waiting for something that never came. Guess I'll skip the Husband's Secret too (I will say I didn't enjoy reading that Woman on a train book but I loved the solution)

I'm finally stating There There. Cause I had to read the new Deborah Harkness and Cormorant Strike books the second they arrives!

[Bonnie G.]

Hope you like There There. Its like nothing I have ever read. I lived in North Dakota for 2 yrs (I just left last month) after spending my adult life in large eastern cities and it really woke me up to Native American voices, and to how seldom we hear about the lives of Indians from their own pens.

[Hayley]

Really enjoyed reading this discussion! Alicia matches my opinion really well - there were flaws (and the inconsistencies did annoy me a bit throughout) but overall I liked the book a lot. I think I gave it 5* at the time for readability but looking back it was more of a 4* read. Kudos to the author for first novel though. I really liked that it never turned into a romance. I’m not going to lie, I kind of wanted the ladies in the department store to do a full-on She’s All That to Eleanor...