Beta Reader Group discussion
Writing Advice & Discussion
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beginning writers let's chat!
Oh, marketing... My book doesn't come out for a couple of months, but marketing already seems like it's going to be difficult.
I see marketing as the big bad wolf for authors, you got to be a power summoning wizard to get through it. But hey! at least after that you get to call yourself an author not just a writer :)I'm still in the beginning stages of my writing. Nowhere to go but up, right?
Chin up and summon those powers!
you need to be a power summoning wizard level 9000 to get through it, get it right. XDI'm not a begining writer per se, just a poor one. (doing this for the past 10 years). I'll happily support anyone who needs it. Otherwise, I'm back in my corner with my tom collins.
If you need help with editing, various programs, or formatting, feel free to ask. I've tried/bought them all (that works on windows) and can tell you whatever essential differences you need to know to tailor to your writing needs.
Great thread!How about this: how much editing and changing words around is enough editing and changing words around?
You know when you stare at a simple word for so long that you can no longer tell if it's spelled correct? That's my whole manuscript right now. I've read, and re-read it so many times it all just looks like crapola.
Time to trust my Betas and Editor and just put it out there?
Hi! I'm plodding through editing my very first manuscript. Pretty sure I'm at the phase where I need a beta before I butcher it, though it seems like I'm constantly finding new sentences to add or take away. I think at some point in the last few months, I've lost my mind. At least, this is what this endeavor has felt like.
I feel like editing and changing things around is a constant up to the point where is on its way to being published(luckily)and you are not allowed to change anything else. It can get pretty crazy, I've even gotten to the point where I have three different files of the same chapter, all of them slightly different and they change every time a reread them. Hello, my name is Fati and I have a problem... And yet there're chapters or pieces that seem "good" and you just know they could be better but for some reason you dont have it in you to rewrite it... You know what I mean?
Yeah, when it just feels like you ought to be able to make it better, but you just can't figure out how. One of the less exciting aspects of writing.
Fati wrote: "I feel like editing and changing things around is a constant up to the point where is on its way to being published(luckily)and you are not allowed to change anything else. It can get pretty crazy,..."Oh! I know exactly what you mean! This is why I decided to go ahead with beta-readers. It's become where I'm just changing small stuff, a line here and there and not changing or adding anything to the real plot. Hopefully, if there is something I'm missing, it will get spotted with a fellow readers eyes.
I'm so sick of reading my own stuff I'm ready to light the whole thing on fire!
Lee wrote: "Fati wrote: "I feel like editing and changing things around is a constant up to the point where is on its way to being published(luckily)and you are not allowed to change anything else. It can get ..."Yes! setting things on fire is a well known feeling. I get ya'
I can certainly understand the simultaneous reticence to really lay the hammer on my own work... and even greater reluctance to hand it off to beta readers/editors for real criticisms. When I finished the second of my two edits (each of which took approximately 2 weeks of 5-10 hour days... my book is 166k)I can still 'sense' holes in the back of my mind with the plot/character arcs/general direction.... and I've changed a *ton*... so much so that I had to blackboard character timelines just to assure match-ups.
R-A wrote: "I can certainly understand the simultaneous reticence to really lay the hammer on my own work... and even greater reluctance to hand it off to beta readers/editors for real criticisms. When I fin..."
I know the feeling, specially since I began to write my story in pieces. I never thought I wanted to actually write the whole thing down, and now i'm trying to do it the right way, writing in order but my mind just does not work that way and so I have a bunch of scenes, phrases, details... it's insane, you should see my files, pieces everywhere...
Now i i'm trying to piece everything together in the timeline of my mind but even so after a start writing it i can feel those gaps...
I'm a first time author and have worked so diligently to come up with good, original metaphors and analogies and thought that I had at least semi accomplished it. Since reading and editing it for maybe the 6th time, I'm not quite sure if my thoughts were original or not.
R-A - I just handed my book off to a beta-reader. Very nerve-wracking!Fati- I wrote my book this way. What a disaster! I think it made the entire process that much harder. Ended up rewriting whole scenes, taking away entire chapters...Even my poor phone has notes all in it, tidbits of dialog that would pop-up while I was making dinner or out shopping.
I've learned going into the very first draft for my second/part 2 book to take it scene by scene in the order I want events to happen. That way,down the road,when I have to reorganize and it feels clearer in my head.
Debbie- I've come to terms with no thoughts are original. Somebody somewhere has thought what our characters have thought!
You're probably right about that Lee. Which is a dilemma for writers because originality is a must according to editors. Originality is in the eye of the beholder I think.
Fati wrote: "I know the feeling, specially since I began to write my story in pieces. I never thought I wanted to actually write the whole thing down, and now i'm trying to do it the right way, writing in order but my mind just does not work that way and so I have a bunch of scenes, phrases, details... it's insane, you should see my files, pieces everywhere...Now i i'm trying to piece everything together in the timeline of my mind but even so after a start writing it i can feel those gaps... ..."
That's interesting. My first thoughts on my current work (which is part 1 of a 4-5 part series) coalesced about 4 years ago around a single vignette that I couldn't get out of my mind. Over the next 4 years I semi-diligently worked on themes, character arcs and more and more vignettes until my father suggested I attack it head-on.
I did... and finished the 130k-ish from book 1 that I hadn't hit in under 4 months. But I come from the same background: I write scenes that are like pieces of music in my mind... but have trouble connecting them. Usually I require mood-based music on infinite repeat to gain the rhythms I need.
Lee- oh I know all about notes saved on the phone and corners of any piece of paper I can find. What I did is that I went through all (well most) of my notes and placed them on different folders in the order that they happen, that way when I'm writing chapter by chapter I can search through the folders and see what can be used from all that gibberish.R-A- I'm the same way! it's always a piece of music that just sparks scenes or dialogue or just the mood of a character. That's from where most of my notes come from (and on my commute, during work meetings and exams hahhaha) My mind is always drifting back to my "people".
L.S. wrote: "That's my whole manuscript right now. I've read, and re-read it so many times it all just looks like crapola."Well, if it's any consolation: disgusted with his manuscript Somerset Maugham threw it away from the kitchen window. If his wife had not gone and collected it we could never have read "Of Human Bondage"!
Fati wrote:"R-A- I'm the same way! it's always a piece of music that just sparks scenes or dialogue or just the mood of a character. That's from where most of my notes come from (and on my commute, during work meetings and exams hahhaha) My mind is always drifting back to my "people". "I have about 15 pieces of music queued up for repeat play on my compy:
FWIW The following goes: Artist - Track: Emotional Jump-Start Utility
1. Woodkid - Iron: Combat, Rough Travel, Intensity
2. Adele - Skyfall (Clark Kent & Oscar Daniel Remix): more combat/intensity
3. The Handsome Family - Far From any Road: Depressing stuff, ominous activity, wilderness
4. Last of the Mohicans ST - Promontory/The Gael: Driving, Heavy paced chase scenes
5. James Blake - Retrograde: Depressing; Post-Battle, Introspection
6. Mazzy Star - Into Dust: "All is Lost Moment"
7. Tom Odell - Can't Pretend: Building to a Crescendo, Pieces coming together
8. The Heavy - Short Change Hero: Lock & Load. Into Darkness (F Yeah)
9. Starcraft II TOS - Track 14: The End of All Things
10. Tool - Lateralus: Things getting heavy & picking up pace & introspective? HERE YOU GO.
11. Literally Anything by Clint Mansell (But in particular: Moon TOS; The Fountain TOS; ME3 TOS
12. Johnny Cash - Hurt: Because, yeah... crying
13. GOT Soundtrack - Rains of Castamere: Slow brutality.
14 Aerith's Theme (Orchestral): More sobbing - but uplifting (sorta)
15. Basically the Entire LOTR Soundtrack. All of It. Different songs evoke different moods like: "AHMG everything is purty"... to "HOLY CRAP CHASED BY WRAITHS" to... "SOB-SOB-SOB-SOB"
There are more in my queue (Stones, Clash, Zepp, Nirvana, Daft Punk, Bowie ...but those are my go-to's)
Also - Winter on the Weekend by Julia Stone but a HUGE Trigger Warning... it's really creepy and beautiful. But totally, totally creepy. Like Gollum Rule 34 Creepy.
Anywho, that's me sharing!
R-A wrote: "Fati wrote:"R-A- I'm the same way! it's always a piece of music that just sparks scenes or dialogue or just the mood of a character. That's from where most of my notes come from (and on my commute,..."You did not just post a glimpse into your writing playlist.. Oh dear we could be here for hours if we start exchanging playlists hahahahaha. (Love it!) I also have a bunch of epic soundtracks in mine, some Tom Odell, Woodkin is a must (specially the acoustic versions) Clint Mansell :) I also started to add some Koda songs, I have a few strong Sigur Ros in there as well. There is this guy called Tony Anderson-New life is brilliant. Some M83. And on the epic instrumental side I have some Ryan Taubert and also there is this great Youtube channel Brand X Music, all good stuff... (we should exchange emails *wink* *wink*)
New conversation starter! NARRATIVE STYLE AND POV.What are your preferences? I'm having a difficult time with my style of narrative, at first I wrote it my way but once a began to share it with Beta's and such they criticized it and started to guide me to the more conventioanl way... I understand that there are rules that should be met, but also I have read books that are written in a unique way and they flow just magically. So now I have this huge contradiction of what to do...
Thanks stuffy and square minded Beta Readers... (not all of them, but most)
PLEASE share your experiences. :)
I'm coming at this from a somewhat different perspective. I wrote my first book in 1998 when I was eighteen-years-old and I was too young to really worry about anything. I just sat down and wrote it. I didn't worry about marketing or publishing it because, back then, there were no venues for publishing yourself outside of the vanity presses that charged a ton of money.I think young writers today have much more to worry about when writing your first novel. My only advice would be to try to block everything else out and trust yourself. You can second-guess things until the end of time because no book is ever going to be perfect, but just trust that you are a good writer and that you have the skill to do this.
Fati wrote: "New conversation starter! NARRATIVE STYLE AND POV.What are your preferences? I'm having a difficult time with my style of narrative, at first I wrote it my way but once a began to share it with B..."
Mine seems to jump around. I enjoy playing with it - even at the risk of inconsistency. But generally, I stay with 3rd person subjective. I like unreliability (and its important for my current novel).
I'm glad to hear that not being sure that anything you have written is worth reading is not just my issue. I self published an e-book after I had spent hours upon hours of taking out this and adding that. After I published it I started to work on it again with more hours upon hours of changes then I uploaded it again. I think it's better but who knows. I don't think a writer will ever be satisfied until they hear some good reviews even then there is plenty of doubt. It's frustrating for sure.
The way I get down to write is just to let it flow without worrying about the edits yet. If you get hung up on "perfection" it'll never get finished. Also, I don't worry about audience, as I mainly write for myself. Then afterwards, I finally clean it up to make it "marketable".Write until it "feels right". Then you know it's done. But you're right, sometimes that one line makes a world of difference. It helps to have beta readers if you can find some competent ones, because after awhile, you gloss over everything and get stuck in your head. Having a different set of eyes can help.
K.P. A different set of eyes really does help. Thanks to this, I changed my very first chapter, something I knew deep down I needed to do, but was forced to once another eye caught it for me. I worry there are a few other things I need to change, but I'm pretty sure I'll have those pointed out in due time. As for Narrative style, I had a heck of a time finding this. I'm writing from 2 different perspectives male and female from very different lives. It wasn't until the very end, that I finally found my female characters narrative style....leading me to change the first chapter a bit...
The entire story is present tense first person, for both. Not a real popular style, but it just didn't read correctly any other way.
I think my own personal writing style maybe a bit nontraditional for the genre I'm trying to put it in, oh well, I wrote it as something I would like, there has to be others like me! :)
Fati wrote: "R-A wrote: "Fati wrote:"R-A- I'm the same way! it's always a piece of music that just sparks scenes or dialogue or just the mood of a character. That's from where most of my notes come from (and on..."You should give your beta readers like a disclaimer. I think this does happen sometimes, where beta readers don't realize what you trying to do stylistically is on purpose and they might try to backtrack your writing because they don't understand.
You should just send your betas a little FYI take this into consideration header and see how that changes things. Cause I think if it were published and weird no one would question it. But when its in beta form and weird everyone is like "HEY WHAT IS THIS WRITER DOING. THIS IS NOT THE NORM! BAD WRITER!"
When I write I'm always thinking about pace and tension. if I'm bored writing it, the reader's ganna be bored reading it.
Kelsey wrote: "Fati wrote: "R-A wrote: "Fati wrote:"R-A- I'm the same way! it's always a piece of music that just sparks scenes or dialogue or just the mood of a character. That's from where most of my notes come..."I will start doing that when I send out my work next time. At first I didn't because I wasn't sure of the quality of my writing, not really confident on what I was doing and I guess I wanted to see how many critiques it would get. Now I'm more sure of what I want for my story... I also focus a lot on pacing and tension which is a very particular thing with my story, since the MC doesn't share much I wanted to incorporate that in to the flow of info and being in third person I think that's what confused most of my Beta readers, they didnt get I was leaving out details on purpose and they kept telling me that had to explain this or that and I just replied IT'S JUST THE FIRST THREE CHAPTERS! RELAX! hahahahaahha....
lol ... I always thought I was the odd one out ... after reading this I think I belong somewhere :)
I recently finished editing my first manuscript fully. It's 120K words so it was a chore. I've heard from other authors that you should expect to cut 10-20% but I only cut out about 5% and added a lot more. I'm afraid it's too long and that I'll have trouble finding anyone willing to look at it but I don't feel like there's a good place to break it into two books. And I agree completely with R-A's post about having trouble connecting scenes. I have a huge playlist of music along with several pandora stations aimed at inspiring me to push through to the next big sequence.
Silver wrote: "lol ... I always thought I was the odd one out ... after reading this I think I belong somewhere :)"Welcome, welcome. Please have a sit, want to some coffee? share anything you might like to grieve out :)
Where do I start???!!!After reading all these replies, I'm so happy to hear it isn't just me!
I'm currently in the middle of editing my first full length novel - the one I've decided to nurture and share with the world (in itself a frightening prospect that scares me to death!!).
Its fair to say, I'm probably editing for the third time, and am hoping the last for my own sanity!
I too, read through my manuscript some days and think 'what the heck were you thinking?' then others days I'm giving myself a high-five for writing such an awesome paragraph!
And, I'm not sure if its just me or not, but I can read through my work in Word or on my Mac (iBooks) and think it all looks/reads good. Then I'll view on my phone or a different device and think it's terrible... What's that all about?
The story I originally wrote (18months or so ago) is nothing like the one currently coming to life. I'll often find myself composing something, then whilst getting on with my life (driving kids to school, grocery shopping - whatever), I'll rewrite it all in my head and lines will pop into my head that HAVE to be written on the nearest available thing (phone notes, kids school books...I've even been known to voice record my thoughts in the middle of the street outside the local post office just so I don't forget the phrasing and flow.)
I have days were I suffer MAJOR stressing over 'is it good enough?' 'will people like this?' 'will they get me and what I'm trying to say?'
Sleepless nights have become a regular occurrence (and this time I can't blame my kids - the human ones anyway!). I kinda feel like my novel is my baby, wanting what's best for it, hoping to guide it in the right direction, to feel pride etc etc.
Detail is a big thing for me - too much? not enough?
I'm beginning to think about marketing, and how I'll get the word out for people to take a look when I've published. And choosing a cover is driving me insane! In my head I have the perfect image, along with a million questions over whether it relates to my story (I think so, but will anyone else?).
Whilst I'm not expecting to be the next big thing in romance novels, and am writing purely for fun and to share what I believe is a great story, I still want my work to be the best it can be, and that whoever (if anyone) ends up reading it enjoys it!
OK, rant over! Hope I've made some of you realise there's someone more crazy than you in this vulnerable world of writing :)
how many people here intend or want to publish traditional versus ebook? (just a question i had while reading your rant!) I am just wondering, it seems like the community here is more about ebook publishing than traditionally.
Kelsey wrote: "You should just send your betas a little FYI take this into consideration header and see how that changes things. Cause I think if it were published and weird no one would question it. But when its in beta form and weird everyone is like "HEY WHAT IS THIS WRITER DOING. THIS IS NOT THE NORM! BAD WRITER..."I never thought of doing that. (maybe i should?) I got so much flack for Chain Reaction and Dangerous Methods due to the narrative style. Until the james brown bio-pic "get on up" came out (the books were written in a similar style the movie was directed) I had a hard time trying to explain that it's done on purpose, and that if one were to cut up the chapters and set them in their following timelines, one could see they follow order.
Stephanie wrote: "Where do I start???!!!After reading all these replies, I'm so happy to hear it isn't just me!
I'm currently in the middle of editing my first full length novel - the one I've decided to nurture ..."
Stephanie... you are awesome, and everything you wrote is basically my life in a nutty shell. :)
Keep going! It'll happen!
Stephanie - loved your rant :) I think the story is always going to evolve from the one you started with in your head. I've had moments (in inappropriate places)when my characters are running around in my head, going about their lives when I stop and say "he did what?!" and have an OMG moment as if I'm discovering this little piece of info for the first time, as if the characters themselves are guiding me through their story (See? you are not alone in the crazy dept)Kelsey - I do think that the market is moving more towards ebooks these days. I still love a good hardcover but living in a place where books written in english are hard to come by (Venezuela), I often tend to buy ebooks, and also many of the publishing deals come now with E-Novellas I dont think there is a series these days that does not have an E-Novella... And lets not forget selfpublishing which is way easier to do with an ebook (Ej, Angelfall by Susan EE)
John wrote: "I recently finished editing my first manuscript fully. It's 120K words so it was a chore. I've heard from other authors that you should expect to cut 10-20% but I only cut out about 5% and added a lot more..."Dude, you're in good company and it won't be too problematic. I write doorstoppers myself (my novels are typcially on average in the 100k word-range.) The shortest novel is 79k, the longest is 138k. And all that was AFTER EDITS (like a few hundred pages cut edits).
Don't worry about it!
i prefer paperbacks myself, and since i got a new tablet, i'm finally coming around to ebooks. i have too many books, now it's just finding a ebook version of them (if they exist...)
Stephanie wrote: "I have days were I suffer MAJOR stressing over 'is it good enough?' 'will people like this?' 'will they get me and what I'm trying to say?'Sleepless nights have become a regular occurrence (and this time I can't blame my kids - the human ones anyway!). I kinda feel like my novel is my baby, wanting what's best for it, hoping to guide it in the right direction, to feel pride etc etc.
Detail is a big thing for me - too much? not enough?
..."
Don't stress over it. I used to lose hair fretting about it. I started worrying less when I had a positive response on the beta reader forum i was on for 2 years.
If you have command of the language and know your book of style like you know your hand, then you should have no problem. getting caught up trying to 'sound' or 'write' a certain way will only burn you out.
people will either like or dislike your writing. that's a given. have stock in your own skill and other people who will notice the awesomeness will spread the word accordingly.
Lee wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "Where do I start???!!!After reading all these replies, I'm so happy to hear it isn't just me!
I'm currently in the middle of editing my first full length novel - the one I've d..."
Thanks Lee - I try my best ;)
Fati wrote: "Stephanie - loved your rant :) I think the story is always going to evolve from the one you started with in your head. I've had moments (in inappropriate places)when my characters are running aroun..."Thanks Fati - crazy rocks! Sometimes I have a million voices in my head and I just have to pull up and say - Stop! One at a time please (having kids is excellent training for such things!!)
K.P. wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "I have days were I suffer MAJOR stressing over 'is it good enough?' 'will people like this?' 'will they get me and what I'm trying to say?'Sleepless nights have become a regular..."
Thanks for the positivity KP!
Hi all. New writer here also. Hoping to finish my first book soon. Stephanie - Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one, and most of them stink.
Don't worry about what others think. Be happy with what you write. If you are not happy, write something that makes you happy.
I am very happy with my first novel. So happy I can't write the ending. I know the ending I just can't write it. To see it finished scares me a little. I joined a writer's group in my town and they told me that my novel isn't my baby. It's my product. I am keeping that in mind when I finish it this week.
Another thing I like to remember is rejection hurts.
So did these peoples rejections and look at them now:
http://www.literaryrejections.com/bes...
Happy writing. :D
Fati wrote: "Silver wrote: "lol ... I always thought I was the odd one out ... after reading this I think I belong somewhere :)"Welcome, welcome. Please have a sit, want to some coffee? share anything you mig..."
Thank you, Fati ... I feel so comfy :)
Hey all,I'm in the stage of working on my second novel...first one that I actually want published. And, I have to say the thing that is aching me the most is whether or not to kill of a certain MC or not.
Whether they die or not, the story will get the progression it needs. But then again...maybe a little less so if I kill that person. Though, if I keep them alive I feel the world that I have created will lack any real sense of danger and readers will feel cheated. Sure, I want them to cheer but I also want them to cry.
I don't know what to do and I don't want to get to the scene where I have to make a split decision. :(
Kwayne29 wrote: "Hey all,I'm in the stage of working on my second novel...first one that I actually want published. And, I have to say the thing that is aching me the most is whether or not to kill of a certain M..."
Try writing the scene both ways and see if that changes anything for you. If you see both scenes you might just go damn ya, its gotta be this one. You might even need to write a few scenes after that both ways too to see which feels better.
Is anyone up for a livechat for support and ego boost? exchanging writing tips, playlists, troubles, throwing ideas around, but in reality TO TALK ABOUT OUR AMAZING STORIES.
I'm very close to self-publishing a novel for the first time. It's the fourth manuscript I've written but the first was pretty much a tosser and the next two I'm trying to get traditionally published. Is a scary place to be with marketing, cover designers, endless editing, etc. but it's nice to see so many others are going through similar things!I really like K.A's point that it's a product not a baby!
I’ve found it helpful editing from a bound, rather than loose-leaf manuscript (of course, this is impractical if you're still making massive changes). Typography is important, and bookbinding is not that difficult. Personally, I prefer sewn, rather than perfect binding, with six-folio sections.
That sounds like a lot of work. I just three hole punch mine and put it in a binder for my revision read through. I use just regular lined paper for new scenes I want to add and write in. Then when I'm done, I type all the changes up. Then repeat.also for cheap printing check out your local library.
mine charges .05 cents per page. Which is so cheap, that its cheaper for me to print my whole book there than to print it at home.
Beta Reader Group
Books mentioned in this topic
88 (other topics)Beyond Redemption (other topics)
Chain Reaction (other topics)
Dangerous Methods (other topics)
It would be pretty awesome if some sort of support system could come out of this. May this thread be a good place to give and receive advise from writers that are beginning this scary and vulnerable journey, exchange ideas and get tons of support and encouragement.
Let's chat! :)