Series: Lady Astronaut by Mary Robinette Kowal ("The Calculating Stars")

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Join us for a continuation of our month of Mary Robinette Kowal books!

Please use spoiler tags and chapter titles so we can all join in as we are able.

Sarah, I know you said you were gonna start us off but I'm a no-good, unrepentant line-jumper.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Ha! Thanks Allison. I realized I had another read due back before this one (one that’s been in my hands for something in the neighborhood of 12 weeks) and I just couldn’t put it off any longer. Fated Sky is next though!

[Dawn F]

Oh, I’ll have to get started on this one, then! Glad I already had it :P

[Mareike]

Veeery tempted. Might pick it up for my flight home on Sunday and join you.
(Mary left signed copies at the airport in Denver a few weeks ago, and I was going to see if any were left anyway, so...)

[Dawn F]

Aaah how cool!

[Cheryl]

:envy:

[Meredith]

I'll be starting reading this in the next couple days.

[Karin]

I have this here so will start as soon as I finish one or two other books.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I've read chapter 1

(view spoiler)[ It's nice to see how far the Moon colony's come without the info dumps. I also like how sexism is still right there from the word jump.

I'd also be 2 shots drunker if I had planned this reading/drinking game better. (hide spoiler)]

[Meredith]

Ooh, a drinking game?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I mean. It is the weekend now. But please everyone, especially fast readers, maybe consider drinking something other than alcohol. At least occasionally.

[Meredith]

Intersperse with water or juice. Also eat something.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh, I realize I didn't say the drinking game!

You drink every time there's a rocket euphemism.

[Meredith]

zomg

[Ariana]

Ok so how old is Elma supposed to be? We know she flew in WWII, and that she had a lot of miles, so I'm going to assume that she was at least 18 in 1943, which gives her 2 years of wartime flying to accumulate all that experience.

Spoiler for the very beginning of TFS: (view spoiler)[this would make her at least 36 in 1961 at the beginning of TFS. (hide spoiler)] Unless the dates of WWII are different in this alt-history.

Ch. 5: (view spoiler)[So maybe I'm wrong, but 36 seems awfully old to still be thinking about starting as family for that era. Clearly it's much more common now, and I'm not saying she wouldn't be able to have children. It just seems like, given the age at which most people were starting families, Elma and Nathaniel would have already decided Yea or Nay on kids by this point.
(hide spoiler)]

[Dawn F]

I agree, it doesn't make a lot of sense. (view spoiler)[Also she says they've been married for 12 years, it does seem a very long time without having thought about babies at all. Also it means she was married at 24 which is quite late for the time (but not impossible I guess). Also after 12 years they should not still blush when they look at each others like bloody teenagers uuugggggh. Sorry, this is just a part I can't deal with XD (hide spoiler)]

[Karin]

Dawn wrote: "I agree, it doesn't make a lot of sense. [spoilers removed]"

Actually, it wasn't uncommon for women to get married at 24 or later during the Great Depression or WW II, or, indeed, the 1950s. Both of my dad's sisters got married older than the average--his eldest sister got married at age 24 in 1952, and his second eldest sister got married at the same age a year later.

Bear in mind that these statistics include teen brides; I knew at least three women, mothers of friends, when I was a kid, who got married because they were pregnant (But I had no idea that was why, nor did most of my friends.) Two at 16 and one at 17. Yes, you had to get married or you were sent away almost always in the 1950s and much of the 1960s in most places. This is why I planned, at the ripe old age of 6, to marry a prince when I was 16 so I could become a queen-I though 16 was a grown up.


The average age that American women married in 1940 was 21.5, but in 1947, after the war when the "stay home, get married and have babies" campaign was going on, it was 20.4, and it got a bit lower in the 1950s. In 1890, the average age was 22.

For some dates and average ages of marriage of men and women in the States starting in 1890, https://www.thespruce.com/estimated-m...

[Dawn F]

Well I also googled it at the result I got was the median age of marriage for women in the 1040s was 21.5 and in 1050s 20.3 so yes 24 seems kind of late.

[Ariana]

Ch. 19: (view spoiler)[Well, that was horrifying. (hide spoiler)]
Ch. 22: (view spoiler)[But the idea of being stuck in close quarters with someone as awful as Parker, who hates you? Maybe worse than being on the poop ship? (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Um, so I finished this fast. Amazing what a few nights of insomnia can do.

Spoilers for the end: (view spoiler)[This was pretty fun! I think I liked it more than the first one a bit, just because it had more action. As was mentioned in the first book, it was nice to see Elma get called out for not acknowledging her privilege, but also be open to hearing how she can improve as an ally.
Another bonus over the first book: Elma and Nathaniel aren't together as much, so there's less awkward sex talk (but not none :-/).

I wasn't sure how I felt about Parker's redemption arc. On the one hand, it did make him more of a three dimensional character instead of just a "baddie". On the other hand, it feels weird that Elma is craving his approval just because he's in charge and is clearly a good leader, despite what she testified against him for way back when. (We never really get the details of that, so it's unclear to me whether it was something that Elma could believably overlook to establish their professional rapport that they have at the end... Inappropriately pursuing romantic associations because he was clueless of power dynamics? Or something more... aggressive? Hard to believe it would have gone to a hearing if it was just the former...)

I feel like we're supposed to have forgotten about that whole plot point so we can just root for him being human and vulnerable and for he and Elma making a good professional team. Which I kind of wanted to do... and then I'd remember...
(hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I finished Chapter 7

(view spoiler)[ I am so mad that no one thought to get rid of one of the dudes on the mission. Hoping I learn something that makes this better. I am glad though that the eugenics factor is right there in the forefront. The hostage gimmick seemed a bit out of the blue for me and I wish we'd spent more time on why people felt like they did, what the world was doing in response and so on. I do like that the "clippings" have given a bit of info about it.

I like all the training scenes, and I got teary eyed again at the punch card eagle. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Allison wrote: "I finished Chapter 7.."

I feel like I’m having a harder time connecting to The Fated Sky than I did with either The Lady Astronaut of Mars or The Calculating Stars. Can’t put my finger on the why of it yet.

Re: Chapter 7
(view spoiler)[I was thinking the same thing Allison. God forbid they drop one of the men.

The hostage situation felt very forced to me, especially the conversations and Elma’s thoughts. Nothing about it felt natural or subtle, which was disappointing because the way the racial elements were worked into the narrative of TCS did feel so natural.” (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yes, Sarah, I completely agree with you about (view spoiler)[ the hostage situation. (hide spoiler)] I get what it achieved, but yeah. Not my favorite ploy.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Re the ending:

(view spoiler)[

Ariana, I agree, I love that we get to see Elma grow. I do feel that most of the issues from book 1 could have used more page space. Parker's indiscretions (are we to assume the women lied? That he's not an adulterer? That he's completely matured beyond preying on women he has power over?) The racial element with de Beer, Florence's anger, the gay couple, a Muslim woman doctor and astronaut...all of these deserved a bit more pause I think than we gave them.

But I did like the elements that were included. I like that the fear of eugenics was brought up boldly and calmly. I like that Parker was an asshole but in that terribly relatable way where it's not all the time, and not constant. He's "that boss" who, sure they're abusive, but they [insert thing they do that makes us not try to get them arrested/fired].

And I loved both the tension and the emotion. I think it worked super well. I was surprised at the suddenness of Terrasaz's death and grieved. I was caught off guard by Mimi's plight and Parker's loss.

Finally, I also liked how much of this book had the characters thinking about what their real "places" were without the pressure of society. What is vanity, what is domesticity? What is power? What is necessary and what do we do to make ourselves feel significant? I thought that was very earnest. (hide spoiler)]

[Jemppu]

This passage from chapter 13: (view spoiler)["I was fully adult before I realized that other people did not relate to numbers the way I did. ...for me, they have form and definition and mass and texture and color".

I doubt Elma's apparent synesthesia has been named in the books at all, given the time period, but has it even been mentioned before this, that her mind assigns ie. colors to numbers?

Got me curious how much of this was based on real life plausibility for such a strong form of the condition - to see all this in numbers, not just any one - and it's possible connection to mathematical prowess. Or if it was just a neat way to make her calculating ability appear more of a 'super power' still. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I also wondered, Jemina. (view spoiler)[ Or if it was just a coincidental way of explaining that numbers are not abstract for her, that she can see the outcome of the equations and what it means. I've seen some physicists who can do that--look at an arc or a velocity equation etc. and react to it as if they're watching the experiment. It did read like synesthesia to me, though. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I was thinking it was just a (view spoiler)[metaphor for the way she interprets numbers and formulas. (hide spoiler)]

I’m up to page 211:
(view spoiler)[So that’s a sucky way to go huh? Death on spaceship surrounded by zero gravity diarrhea?

Also- does anyone know if E. Coli can really be transmitted to rice just by sitting out too long? This didn’t seem to correct to me. I thought E. Coli was transmitted through fecal matter contaminating food... (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sarah, yes! Totally possible. (view spoiler)[ e coli survives cooking. So if an animal poops in the rice field, and then you let it incubate in a warm, moist environment outside of cooking tempreatures... (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Allison wrote: "Sarah, yes! Totally possible. [spoilers removed]"

Ahh got you. Thanks for the science lesson. I think it will be a while before I eat any (view spoiler)[rice. Here I was thinking it was generally safe. Lol (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

haha! I wouldn't worry too much :) I don't think it's nearly as common as other problems.

[Jemppu]

Sarah wrote: "I was thinking it was just a [spoilers removed]."

It could certainly be read so, and I was myself imagining it just as such, until she went into the specifics: (view spoiler)[the way she emphasizes coming in realization about it tells, that she really does get these sensations from numbers, that others do not. Obviously it wouldn't been something they would've known to diagnose back then though, so, she herself might think it something unique to her alone and/or not significant to warrant a second thought.

After all, if it is something one experiences regularly, isn't it then exactly what is described as the 'condition'? Like those individuals Allison describes: being able to see the outcome of equations and interpret numbers via some 'mental trick' one themselves might not be aware of, could indeed be some form of this thing called synesthesia today.

In scholarly sense anyway; playing a bit of Devil's advocate here: am an eager believer in not assigning too much labels to human characteristics, but since some learned people do and it might help better describe some shared experiences, it's good to recognize them, even if not paying much mind to them otherwise. And in this passage I thought I did. (hide spoiler)]

On completely other note, a random thought from the excessive "At your convenience":

I wonder how NASA's flight con lingo would sound today - how much more casual it would be -, if it was a more recent 'invention'. After all much of the terminology must carry over from the space race era - an era of much more formal conduct.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Jemppu wrote: "I wonder how NASA's flight con lingo would sound today - how much more casual it would be -, if it was a more recent 'invention'. After all much of the terminology must carry over from the space race era - an era of much more formal conduct."

That's a really good question! I'd assumed it was carryover from the military, which still does stuff like this. (On calls when I worked with a lot of veterans, they'd say "over" when they finished their thoughts, and add things like "mission critical" or "non-critical" when emailing me about timelines. I am not a military person, so it was always a bit stilted for me.) But it would be cool to know what they say today, and if anything's been adapted.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

So I wanted to post here instead of just on my status update. I have about 30 pages left in the book.

I’ve found myself really bored with this installment overall, and I think it’s due to there not being a larger plot arc. In The Calculating Stars I felt like the reader was an observer to Elma’s story and her fight for women’s equality. In this one, (view spoiler)[though she definitely still fights Parker’s prejudices, it isn’t as much of an issue. She’s there. She’s flying, etc. I’m assuming (though of course I might still be wrong) due to the setting in The Lady Astronaut of Mars, the ending of this book is sort of a foregone conclusion. Sure there’s stuff happening along the way, but why am I being told this story? (hide spoiler)]

Does anyone else feel the same way?

[Dawn F]

As a story I far preferred The Fated Sky. I like these narrow focused chamber story of travel (apparently), and I liked all the space science stuff. However I find both books terribly childishly written, especially The Fated Sky is at times so juvenile I was cringing and rolling my eyes out of my head a hundred times, so I can’t really say I liked them. Elma’s lip biting drove me crazy. If I wanted an insecure college girl I’d read Fifty Shades of Grey.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I can see why you'd feel that way Dawn! For me, I liked that (view spoiler)[
Elma was a person, not just her job. She didn't get into space and stop being the person she was. She still likes to bake, she's still shy about discussing sex with anyone other than her husband. She's still a privileged white girl with a lot of triggers as a woman and a Jew. She's still fighting her anxiety and stigma from that. I enjoyed that. So few books, I feel, allow women to be competent AND imperfect in a realistic/non-abusive sort of way. The badass "strong female protagonist" so often either ends up still needing men to save her, or falls apart around them or is like really effing torqued but in a way we're supposed to assume is totally normal. IDK about you, but I've never been able to go from pissed to happy to sobbing to in love in about three minutes. For whatever reason I see that a lot.

In contrast, Elma, Florence, Helen, Ruby and Kam! I understood them all and I could see how the men wanted to paint them. But I was glad to be able to form my own opinions about them.

(hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Finished! I enjoyed the ending. I skimmed over the calculations and pilots talk though. I found that less readable in this book.

End of book spoilers:
(view spoiler)[I get where you are coming from Ariana. I do feel like Parker redeemed himself but at the same time it felt like we were being pushed to just forget about Parker’s past. The adultery isn’t excusable but more forgivable than the fact that he used his power to force himself on women. As much as he “loved” his wife I can’t help wondering if she and him had some sort of modern marriage agreement that made the adultery acceptable (being that she’s in an iron lung)? That’s probably just wishful thinking on my part.

Nonetheless- I enjoyed his arc and his epiphany moment with DeBeers.

The rest of the story didn’t do much for me. I didn’t know Ruby well enough to care for her. Terrazas and Raphael’s grieving afterwards I cared more about... but I just didn’t feel like this offered anything new. I kept expecting something to happen with their relationship- for that to be worked into the story somehow but it felt like it was just dropped in there so we could check all the boxes: racism, sexism... what did we miss? Oh homophobia. The only person we see it have an effect on is Elma. And even she doesn’t really seem to come to any kind of conclusion on it. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Just to clarify, (view spoiler)[my issue with Parker is not the adultery. As you point out Sarah, it's very possible he and Mimi had some sort of agreement, tacit or even explicit, that he could get sex elsewhere, since it's not an option for her at this time. Regardless of whether Elma judges him for it, it's not something i really hold against him, and I don't think it precludes his character from earning our respect. The issues from the past might.

The problem is we don't know exactly what those things were... We don't really get a sense of just how egregious his prior transgressions were, I think they're just alluded to (unless I missed it).

I feel like if it was just something along the lines of "asking out WASPs inappropriately because they had to be polite to him", there would never have been a hearing in the first place for Elma to testify at. So I'm left to feel like it was more aggressive, like "stealing kisses" (or worse?) from women who couldn't realistically say no without losing their jobs. This seems much more insidious to me, and I found it frustrating that, given that we don't really know what happened, we're supposed to just forget about it and root for him and Elma to work together at the end. At least that's how it felt to me.

I mean, I'm not saying someone with that in their past can't be redeemed, but he shows zero remorse for any of what happened, and his intense hatred of Elma for testifying seems to indicate he doesn't think he did anything wrong.

So what are we supposed to think? Did he do something awful, but we're just supposed to let him off the hook? Or was what he did not that bad, and he's justified in being so pissed at Elma?
(hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Ariana wrote: "Just to clarify..."

(view spoiler)[I was under the impression he was sleeping with women under his command and those women didn’t feel like they were allowed to say no. Then when the women got into court, they felt like they couldn’t testify against him without losing their jobs.

But now I can’t remwmber exactly what was said or what happened. Makes me wish I still had my copy of TCS. Still- he’s definitely icky, and even if he isn’t totally redeemed I enjoyed his arc in this book. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

But yes I agree it’s problematic and frustrating we don’t know specifics.

[Ariana]

Sarah wrote: "But yes I agree it’s problematic and frustrating we don’t know specifics."

(view spoiler)[Yeah, I mean, it's annoying to me to conflate consensual affairs that are *gasp* adulterous with ones where consent is in question (e.g. unable to be given because of power dynamics), which it seems like Elma does. But we know she's a prude, so that's probably not much of a surprise. (hide spoiler)]

I have to say, though, that as flawed and sometimes annoying as she is, I loved having a female mathematician as our lead. Representation matters! It's just not a pairing you run across that often in fiction, but we're not *that* uncommon.

[Jemppu]

Continuing on with this still unfinished read. Did anyone listen to the audio version? Chapter 20: (view spoiler)[How were the coded messages between Elma and Nathaniel handled, I wonder? Surely, not read aloud as they appear in the text? (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

somehow I found this but not the calculating stars BR. a little help please? ; )

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

It was an official group read!

First impressions: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Spoilers:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Rachel]

ah that explains it!! haha. the search function for discussions is really poor huh.

[Rachel]

thanks ;)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Don't get me started on the search functions!

[Rachel]

I literally searched like 'book title' in 'discussions'....

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

☹