Planning for our Fourth Read of 2018

[Lia]

Thanks Ian, that’s very informative as always.

But I also want to point out the abundance of complaints against Kaufmann is probably because for so long, he’s considered the “king” of Nietzsche translations and scholarships, I think even now he is commonly recommended as the go-to version for new Nietzsche readers.

I’ve also heard philosophy grad students describe more recent tranlations as technically more accurate, but “unreadable”. The flow is all wrong, the language unnatural, etc. I’m just reporting what I’ve heard, I have no samples to illustrate that. But, the point being, even today, despite years of scrutiny, Kaufmann is still very popular (and cheap if you buy the Basic Writings anthology. Even the printed ones are very cheap second hand, there are so many around.)

[Christopher]

Das Weib lernt hassen, in dem Maasse, in dem es zu bezaubern - verlernt. [sic- N.'s spelling (orthography?) is different from today's)]

I was curious about this. I think Hollingdale wants an English word to distinguish "das Weib" from "die Frau," and considers "wench" to be archaic- not pejorative.

[Lia]

Thanks Donut. I just love this group. There’s always a Greek, Latin, or German speaker hanging around :p~

[Christopher]

PS- not that he's right about that.

[Lia]

Wait, who is right about what? We haven’t started yet and I’m already confused. Nietzsche always does that to me.

I practiced a little bit of google-fu and found this footnote (Courtesy of Google Play Book/ Oxford Handbook of Nietzsche)

By omitting the dash and translating “wie” (a typical expression of surprise or puzzlement) as “what then?” Kaufmann’s translation suppresses this suggestion and makes the line read much more smoothly, so that Nietzsche is asking us to consider the logical consequences of supposing truth to be, as Kaufmann translates it, “a woman.” The latter translation choice helps to suppress the aspect of the line that would make it surprising or puzzling to readers, for the two words Kaufmann translates as “woman” in the passage, first “Weib” and little later “Frauenzimmer” (which Hollingdale translates as “wench”), are at the very least less respectful terms than the usual term for “woman” (die Frau). His translation therefore tends to prettify the line, encouraging readers to think of it in more romantic terms than it warrants. Yes, it obviously suggests something erotic, and perhaps it foreshadows the complex and subtle eroticism with which Nietzsche aims to endow philosophy in this book. At this point, and in itself, however, the line is more crude than erotic.

So maybe it’s still impolite if not pejorative.

[Lia]

Oh shoot, do I need to use a spoiler tag?

[David]

I feel like a person who picks a racehorse based on the color of the jockey's riding jacket. But I found an audible/kindle pair (not whispersynced) translated by Ian Johnston. I chose the audio book because I have listened to several good quality recordings from the publisher, Naxos, in the past and so far this one seems up to their usual standards.

Audible Book
https://www.audible.com/pd/Beyond-Goo...

Kindle*
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07...

*A note on the kindle book. For some reason the book's description lists the author as Virginia Woolf. This not the case, and so far the text is matching up perfectly with the audiobook.

*Another note on the text. I just discovered the Ian Johnston text is made available, by the translator, for free online and downloadable Rich Text Format (RTF) files readable on most word processors here:http://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/ni...

[Christopher]

Lia wrote: "I’ve also heard philosophy grad students describe more recent tranlations as technically more accurate, but “unreadable”. ..."

For a while, I was switching between Daybreak: Thoughts on the Prejudices of Morality and The Dawn of Day and can attest that the 'up-to-date' translation was wooden, turgid, clumsy, whatever description you like.

[Ian]

Christopher wrote: "Das Weib lernt hassen, in dem Maasse, in dem es zu bezaubern - verlernt. [sic- N.'s spelling (orthography?) is different from today's)]..."

According to on-line sources (like http://www.learn-german-online.net/en... ) there was a standardization of German spelling in 1901, a little late for Nietzsche.

The 1901 version was challenged on various occasions in the twentieth century (I recall reading about a plan to reduce "th" to "t" in words other than names), and the orthography was supposedly thrown into "chaos" again in the twenty-first, with hotly debated reforms. (Not all of the German speaking countries were on the same spelling standard any more......)

As someone who has to deal with English spelling every day, I can understand those who want to simplify and regularize. But it probably does make it a little harder to read earlier literature.

[Christopher]

Ian wrote: " But it probably does make it a little harder to read earlier literature. ..."

It effectively 'disables' the built-in Kindle German to English dictionary.

[Ian]

Lia wrote: "Kaufmann is still very popular (and cheap if you buy the Basic Writings anthology. Even the printed ones are very cheap second hand, there are so many around.) ..."

I suddenly realized that I had not mentioned -- probably because it isn't directly relevant to "Beyond Good and Evil" -- The Portable Nietzsche, which goes back to 1954.

This is another fat anthology of translations by Kaufmann, originally published as "The Viking Portable Nietzsche," or "The Portable Nietzsche" in the Viking Portable Library. (Viking was later swallowed up by Penguin, and that part of the title was eventually dropped entirely, except on the copyright page.)

It is available from Amazon new, but also, there and elsewhere, in really numerous used copies -- the copyright page lists something like thirty or forty reprintings before 1976, and there have undoubtedly been others since.

It contains "Zarathustra," and three of his last works, "Twilight of the Idols," "Nietzsche Contra Wagner," and "Antichrist," along with excerpts from other writings, letters, notes for future books, etc. The "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" translation was also published separately, without revisions (which might have included a sentence which is supposed to be missing in the "Portable" edition).

[Lia]

Ian wrote: “the copyright page lists something like thirty or forty reprintings before 1976...”

I’m slightly miffed that so many people were/are willing to pay money to be annoyed. Today, you can visit any social media platform and get trolled for free!

[Ian]

Additional bibliographic notes for those without a copy yet, or who those want to try Kaufmann's translation in addition to whatever else they have.

I should have mentioned that the Modern Library "Basic Writings of Nietzsche" can easily be confused with a Kindle book made up of old translations, with a generic "cover," under the (deliberately?) confusing title of "The Basic Writings of Nietzsche" (note the definite article).

I have also since noticed that both Nook Books (Barnes & Noble) and Kobo have "Basic Writings" available at Amazon's price of $3.99, but also offer it at $7.99. The differently-priced editions show different covers, both from Modern Library. Although Kobo says otherwise, one of them may lack Peter Gay's new Introduction and the supplementary material.

So be aware that there may be a price issue if you order from either of them, at least if you wind up on the wrong Nook or Kobo product page.

[Kerstin]

Rex wrote: "I recently referred to Nietzsche as possibly my favorite author whom I believe was wrong about everything."

LOL! Now you got my interest piqued!

I was going to sit this one out unless the MacDonald won, but how can I pass up a book written in my native language?

[Thomas]

Kerstin wrote: "I was going to sit this one out unless the MacDonald won, but how can I pass up a book written in my native language? "

I'm looking forward to your comments on the language! Nietzsche began his career as a classical philologist, and prose style was obviously very important to him. Having access to the original language is definitely an asset here.

[Roger]

It looks like I'll be reading the Zimmern translation in the Modern Library Philosophy of Nietzsche, which I got off my bookshelf and found still had the little slips of paper in it from Feb 1974 telling us what the seminar readings were.

[Ian]

Lia wrote: "There’s something hilarious about seeing John Stuart Mill and Nietzsche on the same list, given the same status as “Western Canon Authors.”

I wish there’s an AI that could guestimate what Nietzsc..."

We do know what Nietzsche said about John Stuart Mill's style: he referred to it as "insulting clarity." (In "Twilight of the Idols," beginning of "Skirmishes of an Untimely Man: My Impossible Ones," in Kaufmann's The Portable Nietzsche, p 513.)

This could just reflect the old German "tradition" that one should expect a book on a hard subject to be hard to read -- as witness a lot of Kant and Hegel -- but Nietzsche elsewhere criticizes that assumption, too.

There is no reason to expect complete consistency in Nietzsche's reactions to other philosophers, but Mill does have a way of taking the reader by the hand to point out the obvious consequences of a line of argument, which could easily have provoked Nietzsche.

I am not sure whether he could read Mill in English, or read a translation (which may have exacerbated that tendency in Mill). I suspect the latter, but someone with access to a good Nietzsche biography may be able to check that.

I know that some have suggested that Nietzsche's real problem with Mill was with Mill's favorable view of women -- as in "The Subjugation of Women -- but I would expect Nietzsche to have said so.

[Christopher]

Lia wrote: "Wait, who is right about what? We haven’t started yet and I’m already confused. Nietzsche always does that to me.

I practiced a little bit of google-fu and found this footnote (Courtesy of Google ..."

Oh, OK. So wench is a translation of "Frauenzimmer." That's different. Never mind. (Current slang term is, wait for it: "thot.")

eta: "Selten denkt das Frauenzimmer"- the thot rarely thinks.

[Lia]

Donut wrote: “Oh, OK. So wench is a translation of "Frauenzimmer." That's different. Never mind. (Current slang term is, wait for it: "thot.")”

Look at that missed opportunity to put “thot” in high school text books!

[Kerstin]

Christopher wrote: "Oh, OK. So wench is a translation of "Frauenzimmer." That's different. Never mind. (Current slang term is, wait for it: "thot.")

eta: "Selten denkt das Frauenzimmer"- the thot rarely thinks."

I read the intro, and so far Nietzsche seems to me a conceited prig. Using words like "Weib" and "Frauenzimmer" in short succession. Yikes! 'Weib' is old-fashioned for 'woman', but in more recent times its use has become more down-putting and disparaging. Now 'Frauenzimmer' is definitely disparaging, literally meaning 'woman's room'. Not sure what the etymology is here.

Anyway, I'll stop here :)

[Lia]

Ian wrote: "I know that some have suggested that Nietzsche's real problem with Mill was with Mill's favorable view of women -- as in "The Subjugation of Women -- but I would expect Nietzsche to have said so..."

I was mostly thinking about Nietzsche’s polemics against (British) utilitarianism, “herd mentality,” and equality (or democracy?) I haven’t actually decided if Nietzsche actually, factually, unironically scorn women, but I’m pretty sure he was factually, actually against utilitarianism.

Anyway, I would not want to take it for granted that Nietzsche says what he means, and means what he says, literally, clearly, unambiguously ... about women, or anything in general.

[Thomas]

Lia wrote: "Anyway, I would not want to take it for granted that Nietzsche says what he means, and means what he says, literally, clearly, unambiguously ... about women, or anything in general. "

This seems a good practice to me. Both because he frequently employs irony, but also because he is extremely suspicious of collective thought in general. He reminds me of the classical cynics sometimes. There will be something here to offend everyone, not just feminists.

[Genni]

I am hoping that I get to join both of these discussions because they have been on my to-read list forever. I also really miss reading with this group!

I am curious about reading Beyond Good and Evil before reading Thus Spake Zarathustra. From what I understand, BGAE is an expansion of ideas in TSZ. Does anyone know if he defines terms in BGAE that he assumes in TSZ or not?

[Kerstin]

Thomas wrote: "This seems a good practice to me. Both because he frequently employs irony, but also because he is extremely suspicious of collective thought in general. He reminds me of the classical cynics sometimes. There will be something here to offend everyone, not just feminists."

LOL! It will be interesting indeed, if the biting cynicism of the introduction is any indication.

[Lia]

Kerstin wrote: "It will be interesting indeed, if the biting cynicism of the introduction is any indication..."

Yep, I can’t wait. To quote Karl Jaspers,

“you have not read Nietzsche carefully enough if you haven’t found at least two contradictions on the same page.” (Nietzsche: an Introduction to the understanding of his Philosophical Activity.)

For every shocking thing that comes out of Nietzsche’s mouth, there’s almost always going to be something equal and opposite lurking somewhere in the text.

At any rate, I think Nietzsche here is parodying the very serious preface of Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason, and mocking dogmatism with the infuriating “wench” analogy — but that itself might be a parody of Kant or Schopenhauer. So this could be a case of proto-John Oliver saying outrageous things to mock outrageous things his colleagues/ other philosophers wrote.

[Ian]

Genni wrote: "I am curious about reading Beyond Good and Evil before reading Thus Spake Zarathustra. From what I understand, BGAE is an expansion of ideas in TSZ..."

Reading "Zarathustra" after "Beyond Good and Evil" shouldn't be a problem. In fact, it might be better that way around: Nietzsche did get carried away expressing things metaphorically, or without an immediate explanation (although portions of it are fun to read, in a good translation, anyway.)

For example, he chose to use the name Zarathustra (Persian, otherwise Zoroaster in most western literature) for his spokesman to signify that he was having the founder of a dualist religion reject dualism. This is easy to miss completely, if you are not familiar with the history of religions. (I think it was pointed out for me in the original introduction of the R.J. Hollingdale translation for Penguin Classics -- or possibly in a discussion by Walter Kaufmann, who I read at about the same time.)

In any case, Nietzsche sent a letter to his friend, the historian Jacob Burckhardt (best known now for "The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy"), with a copy of "Beyond Good and Evil," in which he said that the new book contained the same ideas as "Zarathustra," but expressed very differently.

"Beyond Good and Evil" is certainly clearer on many points, although in it Nietzsche is still prone to clever expressions that can be quoted out of context to suggest something different from what he means, including the exact opposite position. (This accounts for some, but far from all, of the "contradictions" in Nietzsche's writings.)

[Kerstin]

Patrice wrote: "thomas, i just realized why its so hard to remember how to spell Nietzsche
its never spelled the same way twice! this is the spell check version ."

German spelling is a never ending headache. Few actually master it; I don't know anybody who does. We kind of give up and hope we've picked up enough so we don't embarrass ourselves. With Nietzsche I have to remind myself of the 't' before 'z', which you find in many German words.

[Genni]

Ian wrote: "Genni wrote: "I am curious about reading Beyond Good and Evil before reading Thus Spake Zarathustra. From what I understand, BGAE is an expansion of ideas in TSZ..."

Reading "Zarathustra" after "B..."

Thank you so much for the info, Ian. I was wondering if I should try to squeeze in a quick perusal of TSZ before the discussion, but it sounds like that isn't necessary. I might listen to some Strauss this weekend, though...