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Fight the Powers: What the Bible Says About the Relationship Between Spiritual Forces and Human Governments
Mod
My response: I agree that I trust the legitimate Bible scholars over your opinions.
The sad thing is that you REJECT the fact that God does NOT have a communication problem... simply because you don't like what He clearly says .
You prefer to give your private interpretation of what God says.
That way, you can eisegetically espouse your preconceived beliefs.
So, what English words in Romans 13:1-4 do you take issue with?
Robert, do you actually believe the bible was written to be easily and clearly understood by the spiritually blind? When you see the word Hate - do you then dig desperately for context?
When you see the word ALL - you lazily ignore context?
Mod
My response: Do you believe that ONLY YOU can accurately interpret the Bible???? On what Scripture do you believe that your private interpretation is valid over the CLEAR Word of God?
I believe this... (with regards to believers)
John 8:32 - "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."
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I believe this... (with regards to unbelievers)
1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Mod
My response: You are the lazy one. I have asked the following questions three or four times, and you have yet to answer...
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Romans 11:32 - "For God hath concluded them ALL IN UNBELIEF , that he might have MERCY UPON ALL ."
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Questions:
1) How many people are in unbelief?
2) How many people might God have mercy upon?
3) Does "all" mean "all"? Or does "all" only mean "some"? Or does "all" mean "all" when Rod wants it to, and does "all" mean only "some" when Rod wants it to?
Robert wrote: "The sad thing is that you REJECT the fact that God does NOT have a communication problem... simply because you don't like what He clearly says .You prefer to give your private interpretation of what God says.
That way, you can eisegetically espouse your preconceived beliefs”
This is what is known as “projection”.
Robert wrote: "NOPE! More like I trust the scholars over your opinions."Jokes on you then, I haven’t offered any opinions.
Robert, we should all agree that only With The Holy Spirit can we properly understand scripture. Our interpretations are often silly and self serving.This applies to language experts and scholars as well. Even 99 out of a 100 scholars can be wrong. There is very little truth outside of God.
Mod
Alexandra previously wrote: "More like, you think God wrote this, in English ;)"
Alexandra previously wrote: "And yet you continue to hold that the English words mean what (you think) they mean as an English speaker, and stubbornly refuse to accept they are translations."
My response: Nearly everything you post is your OPINION.
In your 13 posts in this thread so far... you have not quoted even ONE Bible verse, but you have compared one contributor to "Hitler"!
In my opinion (lol), it sounds like lots of opinions to me.
Mod
My response: I agree . Only with the Holy Spirit can we understand the Bible.
I agree that private interpretations are often silly and self serving.
I disagree that your private interpretations, that require the Bible to say the opposite of what it clearly says are those led by the Holy Spirit.
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Romans 11:32 - "For God hath concluded them ALL IN UNBELIEF , that he might have MERCY UPON ALL ."
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Questions:
1) How many people are in unbelief?
2) How many people might God have mercy upon?
3) Does "all" mean "all"? Or does "all" only mean "some"? Or does "all" mean "all" when Rod wants it to, and does "all" mean only "some" when Rod wants it to?
Mod
My response: I strongly disagree! People like to bad-mouth scholars... but without solid scholarship... we would not have reliable English translations to read.
God promised to preserve His Word... if scholarly translations are not reliable where is His preserved Word?
Only in your private interpretations (allegedly Spirit-led)?
Mod
My response: Only in the context of hyperbole as in the Greek grammar of the Scripture. Compared to my love for Jesus... my love for my father pales.
You should really take some basic grammar courses.
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Romans 11:32 - "For God hath concluded them ALL IN UNBELIEF , that he might have MERCY UPON ALL ."
_______________________
Questions:
1) How many people are in unbelief?
2) How many people might God have mercy upon?
3) Does "all" mean "all"? Or does "all" only mean "some"? Or does "all" mean "all" when Rod wants it to, and does "all" mean only "some" when Rod wants it to?
Does Hate mean hate? Or only when Robert is too lazy think about it?
Romans 11'32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Mod
My response: Don't ask me questions if you refuse to answer mine. Asked now for the fourth or fifth time...
Romans 11:32 - "For God hath concluded them ALL IN UNBELIEF , that he might have MERCY UPON ALL ."
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Questions:
1) How many people are in unbelief?
2) How many people might God have mercy upon?
3) Does "all" mean "all"? Or does "all" only mean "some"? Or does "all" mean "all" when Rod wants it to, and does "all" mean only "some" when Rod wants it to?
I think the fact that Robert is acknowledging the role of interpretation--recognizing grammatical and genre categories, etc.--suggests that he is ultimately agreeing with our point. Meaning is not always straightforward or literal. It requires thinking through how language works and what the author is trying to say.And yet despite his fundamental agreement with what we're saying, he is insisting that he is in fundamental disagreement with us. This is illustrative of the very point we're trying to make! Meaning is not always easy to determine, not only because of the opaqueness of language, but because of the difficulties in accessing the mind of a speaker/writer.
This doesn't mean we're insisting upon complete subjectivity when it comes to determining meaning, as Robert perhaps thinks we are, but that it isn't always helpful to quote a passage out of context as if it speaks for itself in a context 2,000 years removed from when it was originally uttered! It is simply not the case that everyone who thinks like Robert takes the text for what it's saying and everyone else is seeking to obscure it. We're all trying to understand (and perhaps at times subconsciously obscure) the text! How we do this is to explain our methodology and arguments for how we read it, not to quote it out of context as if that is all that's required to do exegesis.
Cody wrote: "I think the fact that Robert is acknowledging the role of interpretation--recognizing grammatical and genre categories, etc.--suggests that the is ultimately agreeing with our point."He admits it when it serves him, and denies it when it doesn't. And in spite of acknowledging the Bible wasn't written in English he is dogmatic in his insistence the English words mean what he claims, even when he rips verses and passages out of context and while refusing to acknowledge even English words have multiple meanings.
He refuses to give consideration to actual meaning based on legitimate study regarding language, context, culture, intended form of writing, audience, and the totality of Scripture.
Robert has a multitude of communication issues, up to and including intentionally "misunderstanding" and making false accusations that people have said things they have not said. As well as resorting to ad hominem attacks, and attempts at deflection and derailment.
In short, he's not a fair dealer, and makes real communication and discussion with him difficult to impossible based on both intentional and unintentional factors.
Mod
My response: NOPE! If God CLEARLY says something, it is pure eisegesis to force it to say something else.
For example:
The Word of God: John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me."
The word of Rod: John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw VERY FEW men unto me."
Link to 50+ English Bible translations: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en...
79 are translated as "ALL"
10 are translated as "EVERYONE"
If anyone is still interested in some of the interpretational issues surrounding Romans 13, here's my discussion of it in the book:http://www.cantus-firmus.com/eBooks/F...
Needless to say, I don't think it's as simple as Robert is claiming--nor do I think his interpretation is in accord with the rest of scripture and indeed with reality as we and Paul have known it.
Mod
My response: Who cares what you think, if it contradicts what God says!
I knew that you would be INCAPABLE of directly QUOTING any Scripture that clearly upholds your private interpretations.
Here is my "interpretation" below. Our options are...
1) READ it and BELIEVE it
or
2) READ it and REDEFINE it
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Romans 13:1-4
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Robert wrote: "Who cares what you think, if it contradicts what God says!"Go ahead and demonstrate it does then.
Mod
Here is a link to more than 50 English translations.
ZERO of them say DON'T SUBMIT to governmental authorities... NONE! NOT ONE!
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en...
34 times - SUBJECT is used
11 times - SUBMIT is used
13 times - OBEY is used
NOT A SINGLE translation says to DISOBEY governmental authorities!
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And we are supposed to bow to Cody's PRIVATE interpretation????
NOT ME!
Mod
My response: I already have... and just finished another post that further proves it.
Cody's PRIVATE interpretations versus UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT of MULTIPLE HUNDREDS of LEGITIMATE Bible translation scholars over many centuries.
Robert wrote: "I already have.."No, you haven't Robert. All you do is continue to make claims and assertions. What you do is no different than what Mormons do.
Clearly you lack the knowledge and understanding necessary to explain it, and demonstrate your claims are actually correct. I suggest you do some in depth study before continuing to attempt to communicate on the topic with others.
Knowing and believing something isn't enough, if you can't demonstrate it's actually correct all you've got is your own assertions. Ripping verses out of context isn't gonna cut it either.
When you can't even hold your own with Bible believing Christians, you're definitely unqualified to witness to unbelievers. You cannot even explain things in a reasonable manner to those who are inclined to basically agree with you. And in fact quite often resort to hurling insults at them.
Quite a huge problem for someone running what is presented to be a Christian ministry. At this point I'm not even sure your degree of English comprehension is sufficient.
You really should work on your communication issues, as well as your knowledge and understanding of Scripture. While you may know enough to accept the basics, you clearly don't understand it well enough to explain things in any sort of legitimate and reasonable manner.
I can't believe that Robert could possibly do ministry in the real world. Imagine Robert at a Christian seminary? Or any institution that disagrees with him?
I often go to churches that I disagree with. It builds character.
Mod
My response: I suppose you are going to call me a LIAR again. Like the last time, when you were PROVEN WRONG and were too ARROGANT to apologize.
I demonstrated 100% UNANIMOUS Bible translation scholar AGREEMENT against Cody's private interpretations...
...and you FALSELY claim I did not.
Linking to the PROOF is NOT me making "claims and assertions" as you falsely say.
Mod
My response: Why? Because I believe EXACTLY what God says? Unlike you?
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The Word of God: Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL men,"
The word of Rod: Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to VERY FEW men,"
Link to 50+ English Bible translations: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en...
81 are translated as "ALL"
11 are translated as "EVERYONE"
Idiot, we agree with the word - just not YOUR use of it.The translations are fine: it's what YOU do with them that's the problem.
Hopefully someone is learning from this - because it's a waste of our time.
Mod
My response: This coming from a person who JUSTIFIES LYING about another person, and it too proud to apologize.
Proverbs 12:22 - " Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight."
Mod
My response: NO YOU DON'T. You agree with YOUR private interpretation of the Word... NOT what the Word ACTUALLY says...
Here is the proof... 100% of what is below this line is the Bible... and YOU TAKE ISSUE with what the Bible ACTUALLY says...
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John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME."
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,"
Romans 10:13 - "For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the POWER of God unto SALVATION to EVERY ONE that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 12:3- "...but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of FAITH."
Colossians 1:20 - "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things IN EARTH, or things IN HEAVEN."
1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but ALSO for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."
Romans 11:32 - "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have MERCY UPON ALL."
2 Corinthians 5:19 - "To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
John 1:29 - "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the SIN OF THE WORLD."
MarK 16:15 - "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE."
1 Timothy 2:4 - "Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Robert wrote: "This coming from a person who JUSTIFIES LYING about another person, and it too proud to apologize."No, Robert, that is what you do. Which is why it's ridiculously ironic you're harping on it regarding someone else. All you're doing is proving you are a hypocrite, among other things.
Meanwhile, my point stands.
Rod wrote: "Idiot, we agree with the word - just not YOUR use of it.The translations are fine: it's what YOU do with them that's the problem.
Hopefully someone is learning from this - because it's a waste ..."
Agreed. Unfortunately Robert clearly is not going to learn, no matter how many genuine Bible believing Christians correct, admonish, and challenge him to improve.
Rod wrote: "I can't believe that Robert could possibly do ministry in the real world. "I know. It's a complete and utter disgrace for multiple reasons. He is in no way qualified for ministry.
He's this worthless and unpleasant with Bible believing Christians, I don't even want to imagine how bad he is with those in false religions and unbelievers.
Mod
My response: Yet ANOTHER repeated LIE about me.
I PROVED Cody's private interpretation to be WRONG. 100% UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT amongst multiple HUNDREDS of LEGITIMATE Bible translation scholars versus Cody's OPINION.
PROVEN! End of story (no matter how many times you falsely claim it is not)
Here is the link again...
Romans 13:1 - "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
Here is a link to more than 50 English translations.
ZERO of them say DON'T SUBMIT to governmental authorities... NONE! NOT ONE!
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en...
34 times - SUBJECT is used
11 times - SUBMIT is used
13 times - OBEY is used
NOT A SINGLE translation says to DISOBEY governmental authorities!
______________
And we are supposed to bow to Cody's PRIVATE interpretation????
NOT ME!
Mod
My response: I will NOT learn from people who TWIST the Bible to say what THEY WANT it to say...
I will NOT learn from people who JUSTIFY LYING about a person and arrogantly REFUSE to apologize ... and then expect to be taken seriously as a Christian Bible student.
Robert wrote: "Yet ANOTHER repeated LIE about me."Robert, I've lost track of all the times I've pointed out your lies regarding others. And regardless of numerous attempts to chastise and correct you, you continue to resort to doing so.
You lie with impunity, with absolutely no shame whatsoever. So you can just cut the crap, you're not fooling anyone.
Robert wrote: "I will NOT learn from people who TWIST the Bible to say what THEY WANT it to say..."No one has suggested you should, Robert. Your failure to comprehend basic English is demonstrated yet again.
"I will NOT learn from people who JUSTIFY LYING about a person and arrogantly REFUSE to apologize "
You have just condemned yourself. Good, no one could learn from you, even if they actually wanted to.
Mod
My response: NO failure on my part. I quoted the Bible and YOU RE-WROTE it.
I made NO private interpretations... and YOU have MANDATED such.
I noticed that you did not quote this part...
I will NOT learn from people who JUSTIFY LYING about a person and arrogantly REFUSE to apologize ... and then expect to be taken seriously as a Christian Bible student.
Well, I guess a wolf in sheeps clothing can be well intentioned...Robert might be a case in point.
Mod
My response: NOT ONCE HAVE I LIED ABOUT ANYONE.
Yet another LIE from you about me.
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My response: Are you sure that this is how Jesus would speak?
Mod
My response: Thanks for your JUDGMENTALISM.
Robert wrote: "NO failure on my part. I quoted the Bible and YOU RE-WROTE it."There you go Robert. Just like I said. That is a lie about me. I have not "re-written" the Bible.
"I made NO private interpretations... and YOU have MANDATED such."
Another lie about me. I have never, ever, ever "mandated" "private interpretations". Ever.
Just as I said, you have a habit of lying about others with impunity, and with no shame whatsoever, and refuse to stop even when called out for it.
Hypocrite.
Steve wrote: "Well, I guess a wolf in sheeps clothing can be well intentioned...Robert might be a case in point."I'd say it's an example of being so Heavenly minded you're no earthy good, but I don't see much evidence Robert is very Heavenly minded. In fact, I don't see an awful lot of evidence he's actually a Christian.
I'm beginning to think he may be one that just enjoys being able to use Christianity and the Bible as a costume in order to try to lord over people and bash them over the heads for his own ego and twisted attempt to have power and authority.
He certainly spends a lot of time trying to stomp on other Christians, rather than attempting to reach the lost.
Mod
The word of Rod: Colossians 1:20 - "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE SOME THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be SOME things IN EARTH, or SOME things IN HEAVEN."
Link to 50+ English Bible translations:
87 are translated as "ALL"
14 are translated as "EVERYTHING"
NOT ONE of these translations say "SOME" or "ONLY THE ELECT" or "FEW"... "ALL" and "EVERYTHING"!
Mod
My response: NOT A LIE!
The Bible says that the offer of salvation is for ALL and you say NOPE... JUST FOR THE ELECT.
You have NOT taken pen to paper... but you HAVE RE-WRITTEN what the Bible actually says... NO LIE!
Mod
My response: And even if what you are saying is true (it is NOT) … that still does NOT JUSTIFY YOUR repeated LYING about me.
Robert wrote: "NOT A LIE!"Yes, Robert, you, once again, lied about me and made false accusations against me.
And when called on it do you apologize? Nope. Do you repent? Nope.
So yeah, don't bother whining about others lying Robert, you've got no leg to stand on with that one.
"The Bible says that the offer of salvation is for ALL and you say NOPE... JUST FOR THE ELECT"
WHERE did I say that, Robert? Link to the post where I said that. Because you know what? I didn't.
And that's not even getting in to the fact that YOU are not the Bible, and what you think the Bible says, what you claim the Bible says, isn't the same thing as what it does say. YOU are not above challenge in your assertions and beliefs. No one is.
"but you HAVE RE-WRITTEN what the Bible actually says... "
No, Robert, I have not. You merely accuse me of that, falsely.
YOU are a bald faced liar. I've proved it over and over and over and over.
And still you keep LYING.
Mod
My response: I am sure glad that God won't ask for YOUR OPINION.
You agree there's a context that trumps the word.... that is our point. Just admit it.