SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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It Doesn't Work Like That - Books That Get it Wrong
Trike wrote: "I’ve got some bad news for you about Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Guardians of the Galaxy, The Expanse, Babylon 5, Cowboy Bebop, Firefly, Red Dwarf, Killjoys, Orville...."I actually really appreciated how the Starfury physics in B5 were pretty realistic, in how they spin without losing inertia instead of turning on a dime like, say, Star Wars. And the time travel plot, while obviously fantasy, was unusually logically coherent.
Olivier wrote: "Allison wrote: "For me, I'm almost always disappointed when either a lawyer or a Quebecois person shows up. I honestly stay up at night wondering how many people are in jail because of bad advice p..."Try watching John Wayne as Genghis Khan, might change your view of the worst.
I mentioned that one either here or somewhere else in this forum
Allison wrote: "Karin wrote: "Allison wrote: "*table flip*I'm sorry. That's devastating! Not least because I bet actually Brad Pitt could learn a decent quebecois accent (given his past performances) and then we..."
I learnt French from a French lady and a Belgian but became fluent speaking with my Algerian relatives. Not surprisingly I find the Algerian accent easiest to understand but I also find Quebecois (or at least films made in Quebec) easier to understand than Parisians.
Allison wrote: "Hey friends, let's stay away from stereotyping cultures and nations that aren't our own, please.Jacqueline, that is weird! A few vocab words aside, Australian hasn't seemed to be harder to unders..."
Having being brought up in England I find Ozzies, Kiwis and South Africans much easier to understand than Americans. It is not the accent but vocabulary, syntax and idioms. Though the South African idiom 'Just now' still confuses me after 30 years.
Michel wrote: "I know, Trike, none of them respected the laws of physics in space, which is why I wish so hard that someone will one day do it right for once. Will it happen? Probably not."I would like for one film/series to get it completely right. Maybe NASA could open a small fiction publishing house?
But I love almost all Space based fiction and am more interested in characters and the wonder of Space travel than accurate science.
I think we say that here too....Yeah I think a lot of it is that we all use the same words for things and we can understand what’s going on better. I tell you sometimes when I’m in America it can get very tiring explaining stuff. You say it in Australian and then translate it into American. When we go to England or New Zealand everyone understands first go lol
I gave up on accurate science in space movies/books years ago. It’s called fiction for a reason. Also some of it was written well before we actually knew what happened in space and a lot of it isn’t as much fun if it happened on the screen like it really happens. I would like to add that people are making the science fiction from Star Trek into science fact all the time. I am interacting with you from a small band held communicator that is way ahead of schedule. We’ve rocketed past TOS communicators to devices better than those in TNG and DS9. Now to perfect the transporter so I don’t have to drive as much.....
Jacqueline wrote: "I think we say that here too....."Yep except that 'Just Now' to a South African (at least all those I've encountered) doesn't mean 'soon' or 'in a little while'.
For a Brit a South African 'Just now' is always a lot further in the future than you expect, resulting in you standing around in anticipation while that South African looks at you asking what you are waiting for!
Jacqueline wrote: "When we go to England or New Zealand everyone understands first go lol .."
On Friday I was talking about Winter clothes and mentioned jumpers which I immediately 'translated' to sweaters and then gave a big grin when I remembered the people I was talking to are English and actually understand what I mean by jumpers.
We wouldn’t have to translate jumpers/sweaters if they’d let JK Rowling leave Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone the way it was in the first place for the American market. Well at least not for everybody. We can’t help those who haven’t read Harry Potter. I think we’re lucky that we’ve been brought up on a steady diet of American TV and literature (not all of it fine lol). We’re multilingual without trying lol
I was also brought up on a steadier diet of British shows. Lots and lots of BBC classics from the 60s and 70s.
And I suppose a lot of Brits are brought up on our shows like Prisoner (Cell Block H or something wasn’t it over there), Neighbours, Home and Away....and we did send Peter Andre over there. I saw him on 60 Minute Makeover the other day. Has a very British accent now.
Anyhoo....back to normal programming 🤪
Jacqueline wrote: "We wouldn’t have to translate jumpers/sweaters if they’d let JK Rowling leave Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone the way it was in the first place for the American market. Well at least not f..."I didn't watch a lot of American TV growing up in England. We were more a BBC family :0)
But as a teen I loved Cell Block H. I even read a novelisation. Actually considering my age and that it involved a lot of sex, drugs and domestic abuse it was probably totally unsuitable but it was pretty good for a TV novelisation.
Mod
But I know enough to say that a jumper and pants are not a suitable outfit if you're going to knock someone up ;-)
I didn’t watch America tv until we got more channels in the mid 70s. Then it was all Magnum PI, Charlie’s Angels, CHIPS, Quincy (I wanted to be Quincy and when I finally went to do forensics in 2009 people asked me if I wanted to be Gil Grissom from CSI or Abby from NCIS. I quickly informed them I wanted to be Quincy thank you very much), Starsky and Hutch. And then of course Dallas and Dynasty. Before that it was Man About the House, The Liver Birds, Cilla Black, Dave Allen and of course Doctor Who. Our version of the BBC (the ABC) also had F Troop and My favourite Martian from the US but it was mostly BBC stuff for the first 12 or so years of my life from 1963.
Good to hear I don’t have to translate for you Allison lol
On 'not credible' or 'unrealistic', I would classify the various scenes in the 'Mission Impossible' series of films as such. I reality, Tom Cruise should by now be dead multiple times, or confined to a hospital bed for life. Human bones are more fragile than many people think and bullets don't only do neat round holes as they go through a body: they rip flesh and organs and often ricochet inside the body, causing huge damage. It is actually uncommon to get shot and then recuperate from it without any permanent loss of physical abilities or suffering any long-term sequels.
Trike wrote: "I’m calling a technical foul on this one.First of all, Star Wars isn’t SF, it’s Fantasy. Secondly, never once has Star Wars ever obeyed natural laws of any kind, let alone physics. The very first film has sound in space and spaceships behaving exactly like airplanes. Given that 40-year-old precedent, the fact that the bombers in SW8 act like bombers is not a bug, it’s a feature."
This.
I actually hate it when people try to make SW make scientific sense. It never will, stop forcing a square peg into a round hole, lol.
Michel wrote: "On 'not credible' or 'unrealistic', I would classify the various scenes in the 'Mission Impossible' series of films as such. I reality, Tom Cruise should by now be dead multiple times, or confined ..."IDK, Tommy IS a Scientologist. Special powers, maybe?
MrsJoseph wrote: "IDK, Tommy IS a Scientologist. Special powers, maybe?"*snort*
Shanna wrote: "I am a teacher with a fairly extensive classroom library, so I read a lot of YA/MG/Juv books. Many of them are very good, enjoyable to adults as well as children. The ones that get it wrong for me ..."Interesting. Despite the fact that I enjoyed the books, that is one of my complaints about Harry Potter
Jarod wrote: "I am a huge fan of science fiction and it absolutely makes me cringe when I see people get things wrong when it comes to outer space. The most recent situation I could think of off the top of my ..."
There used to be a website. Bad Astronomy .com the individual creating the website has the scientific chops to know what he is talking about. It was fun reading his take on Star Wars movies, which he does in fact enjoy.
My favorite was the 'We are entering the Atmosphere.'
His response was you are already in, or there wouldn't be fire outside the ship.
Dj wrote: "There used to be a website. Bad Astronomy .com the individual creating the website has the scientific chops to know what he is talking about. It was fun reading his take on Star Wars movies, which he does in fact enjoy."He (Phil Plait) still writes Bad Astronomy, presently at https://www.syfy.com/tags/bad-astronomy. He's moved around several times.
Esther wrote: "Having being brought up in England I find Ozzies, Kiwis and South Africans much easier to understand than Americans. It is not the accent but vocabulary, syntax and idioms. Though the South African idiom 'Just now' still confuses me after 30 years.."Yes, that is correct, although the Aussies have quite a collection of unique idioms (eg waltzing matilda); I haven't noticed as many from Kiwi friends, but perhaps that's because I've had more of those and am used to it.
Aussies and Kiwis also spell closer to British spelling than do Canadians, I think, due to their large separation from the States.
One of the things that irks me greatly is American editions of British, Kiwi and Aussie books (haven't read as many South African ones) that use American spelling and punctuation. This is because the syntax, etc, longer matches it. Also Canadian novels, but then Canadian newspapers are wreaking havoc with Canadian spelling in print by eliminating the u's--so aggravating. I haven't checked to see if they do that online.
Allison wrote: "Karin wrote: "Allison wrote: "*table flip*I'm sorry. That's devastating! Not least because I bet actually Brad Pitt could learn a decent quebecois accent (given his past performances) and then we..."
I'm just sharing a fact I found interesting based on the experience of a Quebecois friend of mine who travelled around France in the 1990s.
CBRetriever wrote: "the French down near Nice have a decidedly Italian flavor to their accent. What about Meryl Streep, the queen of accents?.."I can't say how good all of her accents are because I don't watch all of her films. She is an excellent actress, but I'm not always interested., Anyway, I don't know all accents, obviously, and some people are very tuned into hearing every nuance. But getting close enough to an accent for a local audience is often enough, I think, if it's a local stage play and the number of people auditioning is much more limited.
Our ears tend to hear sounds based on what we heard in infancy and early childhood, so imitating accents totally true is very hard unless you are a very rare person. There was a Youtube video I saw a few years ago with a young Finnish woman or teen who could speak English very well--she did many languages but I can't speak for the authenticity of accent in all of them.
I'm biased because as a Canadian born and raised on the Pacific west coast back when we only got 2 TV channels, I tend to notice the American drawl--I'm not kidding, but to me every single anglo-American born and raised person has a drawl, it's just a matter of degree. But then, I'm Canadian (dual now) and have never pronounced about like "a boot" ever, but pronounced it just like most Ameicans minus all drawl.
However, I've also heard British actors butchering American accents, Americans butchering Canadian BUT I think to them sometimes that's what the others really sound like. No doubt there are Canadians who butcher American accents (for sure British, Kiwi, Aussie, etc, accents).
As for me, I am terrible at imitating accents because I unconsciously change my accent with where I am. When I start talking about Canada it changes a bit (my kids have pointed that out). When I go home to visit family without my husband, it switches 100 percent back to my local area. However, when I lived in Ottawa I sounded local to that area (no one guessed there and my siblings teased me), etc.
Not scifi, but anachronistic things in historical fiction. I'm listening to one and while most if it is very well researched, it is politically anachronistic. Few people know their political history, and don't realize that certain parties basically swapped certain parts of their platforms over the 20th century in the States; this has also happened in Canada, but I don't recall when after all this time.I am not a fan of politics.
Karin wrote: "Not scifi, but anachronistic things in historical fiction. I'm listening to one and while most if it is very well researched, it is politically anachronistic. Few people know their political histor..."Oh, it's all bassackwards here, lol. The Republicans used to be the liberal party and the ones who got rid of slavery while the Democrats were rich, conservative and wanted to keep slavery. There's even a [terrible, horrible] racist movie that shows the same. Sadly, it's a terrible, horrible, racist ass movie that I had to watch multiple time for university so cannot recommend.
Jacqueline wrote: "I would like to add that people are making the science fiction from Star Trek into science fact all the time. I am interacting with you from a small band held communicator that is way ahead of schedule. "What is the Apple Watch if not Dick Tracy’s video watch? (Debuted in 1946, before TVs were even a thing for most people.)
Esther wrote: "Michel wrote: "I know, Trike, none of them respected the laws of physics in space, which is why I wish so hard that someone will one day do it right for once. Will it happen? Probably not."I would like for one film/series to get it completely right. Maybe NASA could open a small fiction publishing house?"
NASA has, on occasion, been involved with TV shows and movies which are fictionalized. Disney & Chesley Bonestell teaming up in the 1950s, for instance, and most recently the National Geographic (NatGeo) show “Mars”, which is based on the planned NASA mission documents.
Karin wrote: "Our ears tend to hear sounds based on what we heard in infancy and early childhood, so imitating accents totally true is very hard unless you are a very rare person. There was a Youtube video I saw a few years ago with a young Finnish woman or teen who could speak English very well--she did many languages but I can't speak for the authenticity of accent in all of them."Many voice actors (for cartoons and videogames) are also musically inclined, and there does seem to be a correlation there. Comedians like Trevor Noah (South African) and Russell Peters (Canadian) who grew up in multilingual households with parents of different ethnicities definitely have a mastery of accents.
Karin wrote: "However, I've also heard British actors butchering American accents, Americans butchering Canadian BUT I think to them sometimes that's what the others really sound like. No doubt there are Canadians who butcher American accents (for sure British, Kiwi, Aussie, etc, accents).“
The proliferation of Canadian television production has really underscored how terrible many Canadians are at American accents. One example that really stood out for me was an episode of Supernatural that took place in Louisiana and the cop’s accent was straight out of Yonge St. in Toronto. It was hilariously awful.
My gamer friend Matt who is bayou-born and bred has the most musical cajun accent I’ve ever heard; I could listen to him all day.
Karin wrote: "As for me, I am terrible at imitating accents because I unconsciously change my accent with where I am. When I start talking about Canada it changes a bit (my kids have pointed that out). When I go home to visit family without my husband, it switches 100 percent back to my local area. However, when I lived in Ottawa I sounded local to that area (no one guessed there and my siblings teased me), etc”
My dad is from Brooklyn and my mom is from Indiana, so I had competing accents in my house. Whenever we would go to family reunions, my Noo Yawk cousins would make fun of my “country” accent (which I would give back in spades, as anyone who has interacted with me for more than 5 minutes can easily imagine), but I was always mentally translating their speech into “real” English. All the words that end in “th” would be altered to end in “t”. Truth becomes troot, youth becomes yute, etc.
On my mom’s side, going to reunions we would pass a town in Ohio called Van Wert. For years I mentally translated that into “Van Worth” because of my dad’s accent. Imagine my surprise to discover he’d been pronouncing it correctly all this time!
Trike wrote: "Karin wrote: "Our ears tend to hear sounds based on what we heard in infancy and early childhood, so imitating accents totally true is very hard unless you are a very rare person. There was a Youtu..."So true about Canadians in American TV shows filmed up there!
Yes, there are musical people (but NOT all as I come from a family rife with them) who are better at hearing accents--I used to know Cantonese from Mandarin and also from Japanese when I lived in Vancouver and I speak none of them.
BUT I have a musical cousin who is a genius at mimicking people--he'd come home as young as 3 years old and mimic the neighbours as perfectly as his 3 year old voice would allow. He spent years doing voiceover work for ads, dubbing for shows in from other countries and he can do many accents (not all). But he is a master at changing his voice.
Studying music, and I don't mean picking out melodies by ear although that has some impact, but actually studying it stimulates the language center of the brain. Singing in choirs can actually help up to 60 percent of dyslexic kids, too (for that one you can see The Well Balanced Child: Movement and Early Learning but there are many other books). It's a myth that it helps math skills, but there does seem to be many people who are good at learning music who are also good at math.
In the interest of full disclosure I not only teach piano, but I homeschooled and also took training with Musikgarten so have done a lot of reading. Also, one of my pet peeves is people who insist that there is only one way to tell if someone is musically talented, and that is usually if they can play by ear or if they can harmonize by ear naturall or they are naturally brilliant at imrpovisation. That's like saying the only good authors were reading at age 3 and are natural spellers.
Urgh don’t get me started on changing books to American to make it better for them but we’ve had to read American books as published forever and are not emotionally scarred. One of my pet peeves. I’ve been fighting the urge to do my Dick Tracey impersonation with my daughters Apple Watch Trike. I’m enjoying actually using these wonderful things that were imagined so long ago and somebody decided to make it happen.
Other than transporters I’d like Kitt. Not any driverless car...Kitt. Apparently driverless cars have trouble with kangaroos. I want one with a decent AI in it that will stop or at least doesn’t break when it hits one.
David wrote: "Dj wrote: "There used to be a website. Bad Astronomy .com the individual creating the website has the scientific chops to know what he is talking about. It was fun reading his take on Star Wars mov..."I have a book by him. Informative and Funny. I heard about him on a podcast run by a bunch of skeptics. He was great fun to listen to.
American accents are all over the place:wash = wash most places but in some parts of the NE sounds like warsh
creek = creek (long e) or crick
coyote =coyote (Ki-ote) or coyote (Ki-o-tee) depending on where you're from
rodeo = Roe-dee-o or roe-day-o (the drive in Beverly Hills has the last from what I understand)
Houston = Hew-ston in Texas and House-ton in New York City
you have western drawl <> southern drawl <> New York/Brooklyn/Bronx rapid fire speech (think gangster movies) <> midwestern US (the primary accent) <> Mississippi accent in certain parts which sounds like the speakers have a mouth full of pebbles <> Spanglish
when i cam back from France and went into the local whole foods market, I absolutely could not understand the cashier who was asking me questions and neither could my husband.
I was on a bus in Houston and needed subtitles.....
yep - I need them on the TV news sometimes
MrsJoseph wrote: "Michel wrote: "On 'not credible' or 'unrealistic', I would classify the various scenes in the 'Mission Impossible' series of films as such. I reality, Tom Cruise should by now be dead multiple time..."Having seen the footage of how he broke his ankle on a previous MI and then immediately hauled himself up the side of the building and onto the roof where he then hobbled off - just so they didn't have to retake - I do wonder if Mr Cruise might be the exception to the rule.
When hubby and I stayed in (Southern) England with my parents for a few months we got friendly with the neighbours who were from Birmingham and Newcastle both had accents but they were quite subtle. Then the parents came to visit from Newcastle. We spent quite a bit of time together and I noticed my husband, whose mother-tongue is not English, chatting away to the Dad who had an almost impenetrable Geordie accent.
Later Mum and I asked him what they had been talking about and after looking uncomfortable for a few moments DH confessed "It is really embarrassing but most of the time I can't understand what he is saying." "Don't worry," we replied, " neither can we."
A good example of misunderstanding others because of accents is the comedy/action movie 'Snatch', in which various British and American characters of mixed background often speak with a thick accent. In particular, Brad Pitt plays the role of a Gypsie who mumbles all the time and is next to impossible to understand, while the British characters use a mix of accents and street expressions that is quite juicy. While quite violent, the film is also hilarious, mostly because of the improbable situations and mistakes made by the characters. Two sentences that still are in my mind from this movie:
- Tony 'Bullet Tooth', a local British gangster, saying: 'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity'.
- An American gangster just returning from London and being asked by the customs officer 'nothing to declare?', to which he answers: 'Yeah, don't go to England!'
- Tony 'Bullet Tooth', a local British gangster, saying: 'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity'.
- An American gangster just returning from London and being asked by the customs officer 'nothing to declare?', to which he answers: 'Yeah, don't go to England!'
I love Snatch! "pull up your socks!"
One of the things I hate is the way Southern places are often depicted. It's always one extreme or the other. -Accents change from state to state and sometimes from county to county, so there is NO one Southern Accent.
- There ARE cities in the South. Every city does NOT have to be a metropolitan in order to be a city. I grew up in a Southern city, not "the country."
- There is a difference between a non-metropolitan city, a town, and a rural area. If you don't see farm land, you are not in a rural area (aka "the country").
MrsJoseph wrote: "There ARE cities in the South. Every city does NOT have to be a metropolitan in order to be a city. I grew up in a Southern city, not "the country.""You know, I hadn’t thought about that but you’re right that the idea of “the South” in pop culture does seem to be very rural. That’s my impression, too, and I can name a dozen movies that take place in southern cities.
Ooh, self-challenge accepted (I’m going to avoid Texas, because it’s not the South, ditto Florida, and New Orleans is too easy (pun!)): Bull Durham (which just had a Criterion release), Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil (Savannah maybe?), Baby Driver, Nashville (duh), My Cousin Vinny (might not count since it’s a small town, but I love this movie), Steel Magnolias, Body Heat, Driving Miss Daisy, Sharky’s Machine, The Great Santini, Norma Rae, An Officer and a Gentleman, The Firm, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri... boom.
Yet when I think “the South” the first thing that comes to mind is Deliverance. Weird.
MrsJoseph wrote: "I love Snatch! "pull up your socks!""
"D'ya like dags?" :D
For me it's pregnancy, labour and birth that really gets me facepalming. In movies/tv , as well as books. (I'm a midwife).
Trike wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "There ARE cities in the South. Every city does NOT have to be a metropolitan in order to be a city. I grew up in a Southern city, not "the country.""You know, I hadn’t thought a..."
I'm from Durham - loved going to the DBAP as a kid. I'm pretty sure I saw Bull Durham but I can't remember anything about it, lol. Last time I was in Durham - its soooo different. The "new" DBAP area is very...big city. Not really a fan but on the other hand...it's pretty and I can see why other people like it.
Also, hated Baby Driver. HATED, lol.
Trike wrote: "Yet when I think “the South” the first thing that comes to mind is Deliverance. Weird."
IKR? That's basically everyone's idea - or "City mouse, Country mouse." >:(
I will say that when I visited Lexington - Kentucky's second largest city - for the first time I, Philadelphia native that I am, said to my now-husband, "This is what passes for the big city for you guys? I mean, it's nice. It's... quaint." :PConversely, when he visited Philly for the first time he says he felt like the guy from Gladiator:
https://static1.squarespace.com/stati...
pffffft!:-P
But...last I checked, isn't Philly a metro area?
MrsJoseph wrote: "But...last I checked, isn't Philly a metro area?"Yeah, but he was referring to Center City - the proper city part of the city.
I actually live on the outskirts in a more sort-of-but-not-quite-suburban part of the city, but I commute into the city for work.
colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "But...last I checked, isn't Philly a metro area?"Yeah, but he was referring to Center City - the proper city part of the city.
I actually live on the outskirts in a more sort-..."
Ahhh. I've only been to Philly a few times. Mostly at night for shows, lol. My idea of Philly is...lots and lots of alleys and a lack parking.
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One of my Grandmothers had doors that opened outward on her house, although one did open into the garage and the garage door opened inward.
Of course her house was pre-depression built out of two railroad box cars with an extension built between them.