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Ulysses by James Joyce Readalong & Re-Readalongs (2014, 2016); Audio Listen-Along (2017)
You are all so astute! I love the comments and insights. I can't believe what a great group we have here.
Cosmic wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "I also noticed, and it's reinforced by my research on the web, that Bloom's actions "underwhelm". So faced with the pervasive sense of gloom and doo..."Ironically, the entire book of Ulysses could be viewed as a Trojan Horse, in that one brings what appears at first glance to be a rather innocuous book about a day in the life of one man into one's life and it ends up "taking over" - Joyce's ultimate joke!
Geoffrey wrote: "Ironically, the entire book of Ulysses could be viewed as a Trojan Horse, in that one brings what appears at first glance to be a rather innocuous book about a day in the life of one man into one's life and it ends up "taking over" - Joyce's ultimate joke! .."I wouldn't argue with that!
Great article again Cosmic, thanks for posting. I'm halfway through Cyclops as I started the chapter again and I'm really not too sure what's going on, but all of the notes have helped greatly. I hadn't thought about Bloom or Ulysses being like The Trojan Horse, so this has given me more to consider!
Pink wrote: "Great article again Cosmic, thanks for posting. I'm halfway through Cyclops as I started the chapter again and I'm really not too sure what's going on, but all of the notes have helped greatly. I h..."Just when you thought you were running out of things to think about, Pink!
How's everyone doing? Sorry to be MIA this past week. I'm still reading but slower than expected because of some yardwork that has to be done. It's pretty much done now, so I'll be reading more.I'm about halfway through Cyclops and really enjoying the parodies, now that I know they are parodies.
I'll be finished the episode soon.
Apr 2-8: Episode 13 (Nausicaa) Overview and analysis: https://modernism.research.yale.edu/w...
Nausicaa on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S7hJ...
I don't recall having seen these notes on Ulysses before: https://sites.google.com/site/noteson...
I forgot to come back and post when i finished Cyclops. It wasn't my favourite chapter as I found it confusing but without the beauty of language from some of the previous chapters. I did laugh out loud at some of the ludicrous lists of names that went on for half a page. What planet was Joyce on! These were insane!
I'll start Nausicaa in the next day or two.
I'm partway through Nausicaa. I think this is the chapter that brought down the wrath of the US censors? That seems strange now, because it seems pretty tame really.I like how Gerty's thoughts and actions are written in the style of 'romantic' magazines etc.
Cosmic wrote: "There is something i am not clear on. Bloom wants to see Cunningham on an issue about Dignams will/ insurance. Can someone explain what the issue was about?"..."Cosmic, I read this short section a few times but can't figure out why Bloom is interested/involved in Dignam's mortage/insurance situation. It seems that Dignam bet/played his mortgage and the wife now has to pay up or lose her home?
I found this character analysis of Dignam in which it states that Cunningham (the guy Bloom is waiting to meet) is trying to start a collection for the widow and family. It does seem as if the family is in dire straits:
http://www.shmoop.com/ulysses-joyce/p...
There's also this potential information for anyone who can access it:
http://www.academia.edu/2263015/Under...
The one partial line on the internet is "should technically void the mortgage and let Dignam's"
So, it seems that Dignam did something (gambled in some way?) that put his mortgage/home at risk and endangers his family's security.
I finished Cyclops today. Like Pink, it's not my favorite episode. It's so full of hate (or, at least, solid dislike) and disdain. I did like some of the parodies' style of writing.
There's an interesting argument in regards to the time in which this episode is taking place. This argument started in the 1970s....rather late for a new theory on an aspect of Ulysses; Joyce would have been happy, I think......
Anyway, there are two theories on the Citizen's telling:
1. He experienced the episode in Kiernan's Pub and is retelling the situation later in the evening, at a different pub. (this episode is happening later in the evening; not 5pm)
2. He is "rehearsing" the retelling in his head as it is actually happening in Kiernan's Pub. (this episode is happening at 5pm)
" the point is that the Nameless One cannot even experience the events without having his consciousness prepare them for later performance"
This is an interesting argument and I kind of wish that we had access to the whole paper but there's only an excerpt unless your a member of one of the listed Academic institutions:
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&...
If anyone can access the paper, I'd be interested in reading it.
Another interesting point suggested is:
"In either case, the story of what happened in Barney Kiernan's pub posits a hypothetical fictional afterlife with consequences that cannot be anything other than disastrous for Leopold Bloom. This is because the story is finally false. It is not a deliberate lie, certainly, but even if the narrator tells precisely what happened, the point of the story is nonetheless dead wrong. Leopold Bloom did not win the Gold cup race and therefore did not stiff the company of men, as is assumed by everyone present including the narrator. And yet that is the story that will be circulated with the nearly certain effect of confirming negative stereotypes that Dubliners already harbor about Jews."
Isn't this (the bolded line) how perceptions are spread? The perception doesn't have to be true (usually isn't); it only needs to be spread and repeated to become "true" and, more often than not, it starts (and remains) as a negative comment on the person it's about.
Petra wrote: "Isn't this (the bolded line) how perceptions are spread? The perception doesn't have to be true (usually isn't); it only needs to be spread and repeated to become "true" and, more often than not, it starts (and remains) as a negative comment on the person it's about...."Exactly. Happens far too much today, especially in the media.
Petra and Pink, you can especially see this in the American elections this year. It's hard to imagine how this could get any worse.
I've finished Nausicaa, and I fell good about where I'm at with understanding things, at least for the moment. I find if I do some research first, the reading goes much better. I don't know if I would have picked up all the blue associated with Gerty as being a reference to the Virgin Mary. When I read Madcap Ciss with her golliwog curls, I had to look up "golliwog." It's a minstrel doll, and you almost have to see one to believe it. And did anyone else try to say "prunes and prisms" forty times? Impossible!
I've finished Nausicaa, and I fell good about where I'm at with understanding things, at least for the moment. I find if I do some research first, the reading goes much better. I don't know if I would have picked up all the blue associated with Gerty as being a reference to the Virgin Mary. When I read Madcap Ciss with her golliwog curls, I had to look up "golliwog." It's a minstrel doll, and you almost have to see one to believe it. And did anyone else try to say "prunes and prisms" forty times? Impossible!
Terri wrote: "Petra and Pink, you can especially see this in the American elections this year. It's hard to imagine how this could get any worse...."I suppose there's a possibility if Trump were elected. :-(
I got a kick out of his line "I'll be Presidential when I'm elected". LOL! Yeah......
I found a used copy of Joyce's Dublin: A Walking Guide to Ulysses for 1 penny on Amazon and it arrived yesterday.It's a tiny book but chalk full of maps and interesting information, including how to get to the Dublin areas (bus info, etc). There seems to be a lot in these pages.
For example, our question about whether Bloom bought his breakfast kidneys at the butcher that Father Conmee spoke with is answered in the map: no, it isn't.
There's information tidbits about some of the particular sites/locations and what/where they are today. For example, #7 Eccles Street has been demolished but the front door is now the door of a pub (name mentioned) and that the mudflats that Father Conmee took the tram to avoid walking through have been filled in and are now a park.
I look forward to looking through this book more deeply over the weekend.
Thanks, Terri! I meant to comment on that. I also looked up a Golliwog. I vaguely remember such a figure....either as a children's cartoon or in a children's story book. Here it is:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Three-Golli...
This may not be my exact memory but it was something like this.
In case anyone wants to knit themselves a Golliwog:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Molly-Golly-K...
Hmm I'm thinking that it's perhaps more of a UK thing? I remember there being dolls and toys when I was younger and I had books about them too. They were also mascots of Robertson's jam until about 10-15 years ago, when people started to consider them politically incorrect and racist and their image was removed. The name Golliwog is so connected with negative racial stereotypes, that I think it's quite racist in itself, but other people remember it as a childhood character and nowadays the items can be quite collectible. My aunt still has a badge collection of them I think.
Pink wrote: "Hmm I'm thinking that it's perhaps more of a UK thing? I remember there being dolls and toys when I was younger and I had books about them too. They were also mascots of Robertson's jam until about..."Ditto!
It may be a UK thing. Canada has a lot of UK connections.
I've just finished Nausicaa, and am reading some notes about it. They say that the episode mentions that the Citizen is Gerty's grandfather. Did anyone notice this? I didn't.
In my footnotes it says "Gerty is the granddaughter of Old Giltrap, the owner of the Irish setter Garryowen. James J. Giltrap, a law agent, was the father of Joyce's Aunt Josephine Murray, nee Giltrap."(in regards to the phrase "more a Giltrap than a MacDowell" in describing Gerty at the beginning of the episode).
The Citizen's dog is referred to as Garryowen: (page 215 in my book)
So we returned into Barney Keirnan's and there sure enough was the citizen up in the corner having a great confab with himself and that bloody mangy mongrel, Garryowen,.......
I believe the Citizen was a debt collector, not a law agent, and therefore not Gerty's grandfather.......but I've been mistaken before in this tome.
I can see where using the name of the dog would cause this impression, though, and maybe Joyce meant this connection and the Citizen is actually her grandfather in this book?
Did Aunt Josephine have a daughter? Did Joyce like his cousin?
Just came across a footnote that I wouldn't have looked at if not for Gill's question. It's in regards to the description of the strand, " beside the sparkling waves", at the beginning of the episode. The footnote states that on June 16, 1904, high tide was at 12:18am and 12:42pm, which meant that when the girls were on the beach it was low tide and they would have been facing mudflats.
LOL! Joyce is so fastidious about including the most tiny detail of that day and here he took artistic licence. :D
ETA: never mind......the twins went running to "the distant sea", so it is low tide in this episode. I guess that when the girls go to this spot "beside the sparkling waves", it just means that this is a favorite spot of theirs.
That Joyce....he keeps us guessing!
Lastly (for now), in Joyce's Dublin: A Walking Guide to Ulysses, it says:"Joyce made particular inquiries of his Aunt Josephine about the trees in Leahy's Terrace and the steps leading down to the sea, evidence of his careful use of exact detail in the novel."
......there's Aunt Josephine mentioned again.....
(struck out because Joyce did pay attention to detail after all. LOL!)
Petra wrote: "I believe the Citizen was a debt collector, not a law agent, and therefore not Gerty's grandfather.......but I've been mistaken before in this tome.I can see where using the name of the dog would cause this impression, though, and maybe Joyce meant this connection and the Citizen is actually her grandfather in this book?
..."
Thinking it over, Joyce has modelled characters in the book from people he knows in real life. I think the Citizen is meant to be the grandfather of Gerty.
Gerty's grandfather has a dog named Garryowen. The Citizen has a dog names Garryowen. Garryowen isn't a common name for a dog, so why would Joyce use it if not to show that Gerty is the Citizen's granddaughter? "More a Giltrap than a MacDowell" could have been any name. "Giltrap" allowed Joyce to covertly mention Garryowen and lead back to the Citizen and the connection.
This book is full of ripple effects and interconnectivities.
Petra wrote: "In my footnotes it says "Gerty is the granddaughter of Old Giltrap, the owner of the Irish setter Garryowen. James J. Giltrap, a law agent, was the father of Joyce's Aunt Josephine Murray, nee Gilt..."Petra, isn't the person who is a law agent a real person rather than a fictional character? If so, it doesn't really matter whether or not the Citizen has the same job as the real person, does it?
My aunt often used the expression of someone being too clever for their own good. I remember last time round thinking that this described Joyce in relation to the 'Oxen of the Sun' episode. I'm not sure how I'm going to tackle this episode this time. I think I'm going to use the notes as I go through, to help me see how each part relates to particular types of literature or authors. Apparently, each part also links back to some episode that has already happened during the day. I'm going to have a go to see if I can sort out what these are, (or not!)
Well, that's a surprise. One of the early sections in Oxen of the Sun is written in the style of John Mandeville. I read part of The Travels Of Sir John Mandeville: An Abridged Version last year, in a project in another GR group. I wouldn't have known if my notes hadn't told me, but, being told, I could recognise the style.How on earth did Joyce know all these things?!
Gill wrote: "Petra, isn't the person who is a law agent a real person rather than a fictional character? If so, it doesn't really matter whether or not the Citizen has the same job as the real person, does it? ..."Gill, you're right. I realized my mistake earlier.
Joyce once said, of Finnegan's Wake, when asked why it was written in such a difficult style: "To keep the critics busy for three hundred years."
I think the same can be said of Ulysses, at least for the common reader. :D
Gill, that's interesting about John Mandeville. I wondered if Joyce would go back that far in time and remember that this section starts out in a medieval writing style. I, too, read John Mandeville last year. Strange and interesting writing style.
Joyce had to have been a genius and had a photographic memory. He seems to have known everything about everything. Not only that but he could see how to use every detail in other situations.
Apr 9-15: Episode 14 (Oxen of the Sun)“I think this episode might also have been called Hades for the reading of it is like being taken the rounds of hell.”
–Harriet Shaw Weaver
http://loki.stockton.edu/~kinsellt/pr...
The Mandeville section starts 'And whiles they spake the door of the castle was opened.....' , Petra. I think!
When I first read Ulysses, this was my favorite episode. All I remember was that I loved how the language matured as the episode progressed, just as a baby matures as it is nurtured in the womb. It was my first inkling of what Joyce was doing and his genius.
Just found this:http://www.geneticjoycestudies.org/#p...
I haven't had a chance to look it over well but these people are serious about their Joyce research.
Petra wrote: "When I first read Ulysses, this was my favorite episode. All I remember was that I loved how the language matured as the episode progressed, just as a baby matures as it is nurtured in the womb. It..."I don't think I am as fond of it is as you are ,Petra. I find the episode far too long for me really. But then I guess it's got to last nine months hasn't it?!
I like some of the styles that I recognise, for example the one based on John Bunyan and Pilgrims Progress.
.
I also like it when various characters who have appeared earlier in the book appear again. I've just read the part where the secret panel beside the chimney slips back, and in the recess appeared Haines, who had a portfolio full of Celtic literature in one hand and in the other a phial marked Poison. Then it says 'surprise, horror, , loathing were depicted on all faces while he eyed them with a ghastly grin.'
I love this bit, especially the surprise, horror and loathing.
It's not my favorite anymore. I have a soft spot for it but other episodes have risen in my favor with the rereadings (and further understanding of this book). I haven't gotten far yet; just to Bloom being offered a beer and declining it.
As for styles, I can't say I can distinguish anything yet as far as a specific author but did notice a shift at the place you mentioned, Gill.
The part before was more biblical but not biblical. Some of the phrases within the sentences seemed to point towards a biblical sort of phrasing but not quite. Then at the castle opening, the writing seemed less biblical and more medieval. ........yet it was subtle, so I'm not sure either.
I'm a week behind again! I've spent the last week concentrating on other books, but I've still been reading all the posts here. Just wanted to check in and say I'm still around and I'll post again once I've read some more and have something to say.
Petra wrote: "It's not my favorite anymore. I have a soft spot for it but other episodes have risen in my favor with the rereadings (and further understanding of this book). I haven't gotten far yet; just to Bl..."
I think some of the other sections, it's clearer where the change happens eg John Bunyan. Mind, I don't know how obvious they'd be to me, if I didn't have the notes to tell me.
Pink, I look forward to your thoughts. The next episode is over 4 weeks, so we should have time to catch-up, research and read other books again. I have a couple of links that I'd like to look at a bit more closely, another book I'd like to finish and some gardening to do (weather permitting).Gill, I haven't found a reference to which authors Joyce chose to focus on. I had hoped that my footnotes would mention some but it doesn't appear to be yet.
Just updating, I finished Nausicaa yesterday. I was quite pleased that we returned to a simpler narrative, especially with Bloom's thoughts. It made for easier reading after Sirens and Cyclops, although of course it still wasn't all plain sailing. I can see why the censors might have had problems, though it took me a minute to realise it was Bloom's rocket eruptions and not the fireworks in the sky! I don't even know what to think of that whole episode, but I'm not feeling quite so fond of him at the moment.
I'm going to start Oxen of the Sun this afternoon.
Petra wrote: "Pink, I look forward to your thoughts. The next episode is over 4 weeks, so we should have time to catch-up, research and read other books again. I have a couple of links that I'd like to look at a..."Petra, Schmoop notes give a fair amount of information about the different styles that are parodied. I'm increasingly thinking the Schmoop notes are my favourite ones to use.
I've finished Oxen of the Sun now.
I enjoyed the Laurence Sterne section. I especially liked 'But indeed, sir, I wander from the point.' 'Yes sir, indeed you certainly do' is my response to that! When I read The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman, I was quite certain that I would never want to read it again. But now I'm feeling a bit more in favour of it.
I also thought the use of Dickens' style was good.
Did anyone else notice the man in the mackintosh appeared again? Sorry, can't give a page reference relevant to anyone else. It says 'Goly whatten tanker's you guy in the mackintosh? Dusty Rhodes. Peep at his wearables.' Then a bit later it says 'Walking Mackintosh of lonely canyon.' And a little but later 'See him today at a runefal?' And as my predictive text tells me 'runefal' and 'funeral' are very similar.
I hadn't realised, until I read the Schmoop notes, that at some stage in this episode the location moved to a pub. That passed me by completely.
I loved the sentences starting 'Come on, you wine fizzling gin sizzling booze guzzling existences. Come on, you dog-gone, bull necked, beetle rowed, peanutbrained .....etc etc'.
Gill wrote: "Did anyone else notice the man in the mackintosh appeared again? ..."He's a Joycean joke running through this book. He appears at the funeral, gets mentioned (and named) in the newspaper article and continues to appear sporadically throughout (at least a couple of times). He's the guy that no one knows and who somehow (without intent) wiggles into the group.
It's kind of funny. :D
I haven't gotten very much further yet. I seem to be able to catch up in the later week and weekend.
Gill wrote: "Petra wrote: "Pink, I look forward to your thoughts. The next episode is over 4 weeks, so we should have time to catch-up, research and read other books again. I have a couple of links that I'd lik..."Yes, The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman.
I read it in February. This book ( Ulysses) reminds me of that because it has a lot of riddles and play on words.
I also noticed Parzival influence in his writing. I haven't read schmoops yet.
I don't have much to add because i have been studying a lot of things that might be related but not sure they really are.
Gill wrote: "The Mandeville section starts 'And whiles they spake the door of the castle was opened.....' , Petra. I think!"That was the one that i thought sounded like Parzival! I haven't read the other so i think i shall have to put it on my list. Thank you!
Gill wrote: "Petra wrote: "It's not my favorite anymore. I have a soft spot for it but other episodes have risen in my favor with the rereadings (and further understanding of this book). I haven't gotten far y..."
If you had read Pilgrims Progress you definitely would have recognized Bunyan. It is where the names of the characters assume a character trait. Very Bunyan!
Cosmic wrote: "Gill wrote: "Petra wrote: "It's not my favorite anymore. I have a soft spot for it but other episodes have risen in my favor with the rereadings (and further understanding of this book). I haven't..."
Ooh thanks Cosmic. I forgot to mention I recognised Bunyan.
I'm struggling through Oxen of the Sun, but finding it tough at only 8 pages in! I decided to read some notes first, at the back of my book, on this thread and Paul Bryant's GR review (they're excellent if anyone hasn't read them). I tend to save the analysis of Sparknotes, Cliffnotes and Shmoop until after I've read each chapter and switch between the three. I have a grasp of the literary styles used, but unfortunately I haven't read any of the authors mentioned!
There has been one passage that I've particularly liked in this sea of old linguistic styles that for the most part I don't understand. It was about Bloom's dead son.
But sir Leopold was passing grave maugre his word by cause he still had pity of the terrorcausing shrieking of shrill women in their labour and as he was minded of his good lady Marion that had borne him an only manchild which on his eleventh day on live had died and no man of art could save so dark is destiny. And she was wondrous stricken of heart for that evil hap and for his burial did him on a fair corselet of lamb's wool, the flower of the flock, lest he might perish utterly and lie akeled (for it was then about the midst of the winter) and now sir Leopold that had of his body no manchild for an heir looked upon him his friend's son and was shut up in sorrow for his forepassed happiness and as sad as he was that him failed a son of such gentle courage (for all accounted him of real parts) so grieved he also in no less measure for young Stephen for that he lived riotously with those wastrels and murdered his goods with whores.
I almost feel sorry for Bloom again.
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I'd be interested in this, too, Cosmic. I'm behind in this week's reading and will keep an eye open for this part.