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Ulysses by James Joyce Readalong & Re-Readalongs (2014, 2016); Audio Listen-Along (2017)
I have gone back to reread Circe. I found the Heirloom potato that Bloom is carrying in his pocket and the name Sir Walter Raleigh. Both mentioned closed together.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walte...
Amongst Raleigh's acquaintances in Munster was another Englishman who had been granted land there, poet Edmund Spenser. In the 1590s, he and Raleigh travelled together from Ireland to the court at London, where Spenser presented part of his allegorical poem The Faerie Queene to Elizabeth I.
I am sure there is a part of Ulysses written in Spenser's style. Does anyone know where that would be?
They say that the G was added to his name on the oblisk he erected at the castle. Possibly he was a mason.
Reading Ulysses is like a historical treasure hunt. I have enjoyed getting an education according to James Joyce.
The part in Spencer's style was in the episode where it worked through different styles of written English, including Dickens etc. Don't remember what episode it is though. I've really enjoyed all the recent discussion. Am away from home though, so no real chance to respond at present.
How far have people got with Eumeus? I'm near the end now. I found it very wordy, but I guess it was meant to be!Did we end up with a second Odysseus type here? Or was this someone else from Greek legends? 'Red bearded sailor, who had his weather eye on the newcomers'. The same man says 'She's my own true wife I haven't seen for seven years now, sailing about.'
The sailor certainly told some tall tales. It's interesting that by Bloom asking about Gibraltar, where Molly was from, and the self styled sailor not being able to answer about that, that we know the sailor has never made many of the trips he talks about. He'd need to have sailed past the Rock of Gibraltar to reach most of the places he boasts about.
Bloom thinks about himself 'he was at heart a born adventurer though by a trick of fate he had consistently remained a landlubber.' I like the suggestion here that Ulysses' journey can be internal. This means that we can all be Ulysses if we want to.
I liked the way it said 'Another thing he commented on was....' about Bloom. It seems to me that Bloom comments on pretty much everything! I also liked 'where, he asked with a smile, will you sleep yourself?' It's Bloom trying to be father without looking like it.
There's a few more things I thought of, but I'll leave it there for now.
I'm enjoying this discussion, too. There are so many things to explore; one could spend a lifetime on this book. I was thinking recently that this would be a great book to have when stuck on a deserted island.....except that one would need a library of books for reference as well. But that's the kind of time one needs to have in order to really delve into this book from all the angles. ......it would also be helpful to have a group of smart, savvy people like ourselves who see these obscure connections/possible connections......I guess, in the end, one would need the book, a library and this group on a desert island. LOL!
I'm still about 1/3 of the way through this episode. No time to read anything this week. I just heard that hubby will be discharged sometime today (it's still morning here), so I'll be able to catch up over the weekend. I'm so glad to have him home again. He'll be more comfortable and things will be more restful for both of us.
Thank you for all your patience during this week.
Gill wrote: "The part in Spencer's style was in the episode where it worked through different styles of written English, including Dickens etc. Don't remember what episode it is though. ..."It's the Maternity Hospital episode (Oxen Of The Sun?), where language evolves like a developing child.
Petra wrote: "Gill wrote: "The part in Spencer's style was in the episode where it worked through different styles of written English, including Dickens etc. Don't remember what episode it is though. ..."It's ..."
Thank you, I will look it up. I have been enjoying listening to Circe again, this time with this audio:
https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-A...
I've taken an interest in books about Ulysses. In the library, I found The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses and started reading through the section on Eumaeus. A couple of things mentioned about Buck Mulligan surprised me:- "Bloom points out that Mulligan is doing no good to him (Stephen), though looking after himself pretty well, and indeed may well be suspected of having dropped some drug into Stephen's drink earlier in the evening."
- "Determined as ever to be fair, Bloom adds a word about Mulligan's versatility, his medical prospects, and his bravery in rescuing the drowning man."
This conversation occurred before entering the taxi stand.
What I got out of that section was Bloom warning Stephen that Buck may not be the best choice of friend.
Would or did Buck drug Stephen? That hadn't occurred to me.
Did Buck save the drowning man? I thought the man was already dead and had been missing for 9 days? Was there another drowning and living man? When did we find out that Buck saved him?
There are so many details in this book; it seems that we'll never run out of previously missed details to discover.
Petra wrote: "I've taken an interest in books about Ulysses. In the library, I found The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses and started reading through the section on Eumaeus. A couple of ..."I wad wondering if Buck Milligan was a medical student. What is his profession?
Petra, in my edition on Page 4, Stephen says to Buck "You save men from drowning". It follows on from a bit about the panther.I didn't pick up on anything about Buck drugging Stephen though. Maybe it's just that Bloom thinks the company Stephen keeps is a bad influence on him?
Oops! I've just checked, and I see I was meant to have started Ithaca by now. I must try to get on with that tomorrow.
A few more thoughts on Eumaeus:'Mr Bloom thought well to stir, or try to, the clotted sugar from the bottom .....' I love the way that real life eg coffee and sugar keeps cutting across the discussion.
'It's a patent absurdity on the face of it to gate people because they live round the corner and speak another vernacular, so to speak.' What a great quote/ sentiment.
I also love the part about words changing colours like the crabs at Ringsenf..
'With tears in her eyes, though possibly with her tongue in her fair cheek at the same time' Nice!
And typical Bloom again 'But it was no animal's fault in particular if he was built that way ......'
And once more, a lovely ending to the episode 'The driver never said a word, good, bad or indifferent. He merely etc etc etc'
And now to move on to Ithaca.
Cosmic, you're correct: Buck is a medical student. He seems rather light, breezy and non-committed for a man of medicine but perhaps we just don't get to know him well. As he's portrayed, I don't know if I'd want him as my doctor but that may be unfair also. Perhaps in his practice moments, he's more steadfast? Gill, I love the phrases you pick out and share. Many of them stand out for me as well when I read but I never think of quoting them here.
I'm almost at the end of Eumaeus; should finish tomorrow. I will add a starting post for Ithaca tomorrow as well.
Pink, Terri, Geoffrey.......how are you all doing? No giving up, now. We're so close to the end.
Episode 17 (Ithaca)We're so close to the end. We've been through a ........
:D
Petra wrote: "Cosmic, you're correct: Buck is a medical student. He seems rather light, breezy and non-committed for a man of medicine but perhaps we just don't get to know him well. As he's portrayed, I don't k..."I haven't given up, Petra, but I have three grants due this week, and I had to make a presentation this morning. I expect to have a bit more time on the weekend - I have a 3 hour trip in both directions to do (Vancouver to Victoria and back) which should give me some time to catch up on the reading...
Petra, no not giving up this far, but I have unintentionally given it a little break. The past few weeks have been quite busy so when I have been reading, I'm picking up shorter or easier books. Oh dear, I don't want to fall at the final hurdle, but I need to find some motivation for the last part now.
Petra wrote: ":D"
Re Bo's cafe life.
So nice, Petra!
So I'm reading Ithaca, and there's something I don't understand. Nothing new there, you may think!, but this seems a bit fundamental to me, and I've not thought of it before.It describes Bloom's mother as Ellen Higgins, second daughter of Julius Higgins (born Karoly) and Fanny Higgins (born Hegarty).
I thought that within Judaism, your religion was passed down on the female side? ie if a Jewish man marries a nonJewish woman, the children are not Jewish, because he has married 'out'. Whereas if a Jewish woman marries 'out' the children are still considered Jewish.
The names Ellen Higgins and Fanny Higgins/Hegarty don't sound Jewish to me. And isn't there a mention somewhere of Bloom's mother being Catholic?
So does that mean that Bloom isn't officially Jewish after all?
That's one of the social stigmas within this book. Bloom isn't Jewish but is treated & thought of as Jewish by the people of Dublin. It makes him an outsider in a world where he isn't an outsider.
Somewhere it said that he was never officially Jewish. His father was but converted and that was the last of Jewishness within the family.
I looked up his family history for a synopsis and in Wikipedia it says:
The Bloom character, born in 1866, is the only son of Rudolf Virág (a Hungarian Jew from Szombathely who emigrated to Ireland, converted from Judaism to Protestantism, changed his name to Rudolph Bloom and later committed suicide), and of Ellen Higgins, an Irish Protestant. He is uncircumcised. They lived in Clanbrassil Street, Portobello. Bloom converted to Catholicism to marry Marion (Molly) Tweedy on 8 October 1888. The couple have one daughter, Millicent (Milly), born in 1889; their son Rudolph (Rudy), born in December 1893, died after 11 days. The family live at 7 Eccles Street in Dublin.
On the note of religion:Is Dublin a mainly Catholic city? Perhaps Bloom's heritage of both Judaism and Protestantism makes him an outsider from all sides? Perhaps his background establishes him as someone that Dublin will never fully embrace?
If so, I wonder if this non-acceptance is felt by the entire family? Molly is Catholic. Is she accepted into Dublin society or shunned for marrying an outsider? From what little we know, she seems accepted. How would that affect her feelings towards Bloom? She's accepted; she accepts her husband; but the society she lives in doesn't accept him. Would/Could this lead to an internal conflict within herself? .....which may then help lead to looking for something outside the marriage?
Did Milly feel the city evade/shun/reject (?) her father? What conflicts would that start in a young girl?
I'm current with the reading. There's no way I would give up! My attitude towards the book has changed a lot during the course of these discussions. I started with the idea that it was something to accomplish and put behind me. Instead, I've discovered a treasure that I think I'll explore again and again. I worried at first that I wasn't understanding every allusion and reference. I finally accepted that I probably never will, but that doesn't take away from the joy of discovery.
Terri, those were/are my feelings about this book exactly! My first journey through was at first just a curiosity and hope to make it through. By the time I reached the end, I knew the book was a treasure and that I understood none of it.
These discussions have been a wealth to me and really made me see deeper than I ever could have on my own. The discussions have sparked all sorts of interests and rabbit-hole searches.
I look forward, already, to our future discussions. I'm sure we'll have more read-alongs over time.
I'm really happy to read your post. It's so much fun to hear someone say they appreciate Ulysses.
Petra wrote: "That's one of the social stigmas within this book. Bloom isn't Jewish but is treated & thought of as Jewish by the people of Dublin. It makes him an outsider in a world where he isn't an outsider...."
So does that make the Macintosh man Bloom's father? Wasn't his name Virag?
Geoffrey wrote: "Petra wrote: "That's one of the social stigmas within this book. Bloom isn't Jewish but is treated & thought of as Jewish by the people of Dublin. It makes him an outsider in a world where he isn'..."
I'd wondered about that, Geoffrey. The only thing is that his father is dead. But maybe the man in the Mackintosh was his father putting in a reappearance? Presumably, if he'd killed himself, he wouldn't be resting peacefully.
The other thing is that I've not come across any notes online or in my book that suggest that's who the man in the Mackintosh is. Wouldn't other people have picked up on this?
Petra wrote: "That's one of the social stigmas within this book. Bloom isn't Jewish but is treated & thought of as Jewish by the people of Dublin. It makes him an outsider in a world where he isn't an outsider...."
There are several times in the book where Bloom identifies with his Jewish background, but I can't remember whether that only happens when he is being identified as Jewish by others.
There's a great bit in Ithaca that goes (the bits in brackets are added by me):
What, reduced to their simplest reciprocal form, were Bloom's thoughts about Stephen's thoughts about Bloom and Bloom's thoughts about Stephen's thoughts about Bloom's thoughts about Stephen?
He (Bloom) thought that he (Stephen) thought that he (Bloom) was a Jew whereas he (Bloom) knew that he (Stephen) knew that he (Bloom) knew that he (Stephen) was not.
I think I've got that right!
Petra, it's taken me a couple of years to realise that one of the advantages of reading on a Kindle is that I can highlight and make notes as I go along. I don't seem to be able to transfer those notes directly to here, but they are useful as a basis.
The guy in the macintosh is interesting. I don't think he has an identity. I think he's the guy that gets noticed, named (he's named MacIntosh in the newspaper article of Digman's funeral) and commented on but that no one knows, yet now that people are talking about him no one want to admit that they don't know him. He's Everyman and Noman. ....yet he pops up as Virag.
Could a Hungarian Jew trying to fit into a new society be like the guy in the macintosh: trying to blend (be invisible), yet is noticed by those around him and commented upon?
Gill wrote: "Petra, it's taken me a couple of years to realise that one of the advantages of reading on a Kindle is that I can highlight and make notes as I go along. I don't seem to be able to transfer those n..."Hi Gill, I use the Kindle to highlight and make notes. Downloading is awkward but not impossible. You need to go to (or make a link for) "kindle.amazon.com", sign in, and you can access all your notes and highlights there (menu item "Your Highlights").
Geoffrey wrote: "Gill wrote: "Petra, it's taken me a couple of years to realise that one of the advantages of reading on a Kindle is that I can highlight and make notes as I go along. I don't seem to be able to tra..."Thanks, Geoffrey. I'll have a go at that some time.
I'm halfway through Eumaeus and really enjoying it. I love all the dialogue with seafarers - it reminds me a bit of Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island, which has always been one of my favorite books. I'll have more to say in a bit, hopefully I'll have time to finish the chapter shortly.
Geoffrey wrote: "I'm halfway through Eumaeus and really enjoying it. I love all the dialogue with seafarers - it reminds me a bit of Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island, which has al..."I thought there was a definite air of 'Yo Ho Ho, and a bottle of rum' about it, Geoffrey.
I re-read Treasure Island recently, I think I enjoyed it more as an adult than when I read it as a child.
I just finished Eumaeus.....I don't remember if I ever noticed, in previous readings, that Bloom is planning Stephen's future as a Tenor! The boy must have a wonderful voice! I suppose I must have noticed this reference before (it is, after all, about a page in length) but I didn't remember that bit of news. It seems new to me.
Onward to this week's reading of the first half of Ithaca.
I'm finding parts of Ithaca a real slog. I'm determined to get through it, because I definitely want to finish the book on Bloomsday. But oh dear, some parts of this are really stretching my concentration abilities. However, there are some parts that I think are lovely.
I started last night. I got a chuckle out of the question of (paraphrasing): and who else did he have these conversations with? The answer was with almost everyone over many years.
I chuckled at this. Don't we all have stock topics of "discussion" that we can bring out time and again to keep conversation going with acquaintances?
I also chuckled at Bloom climbing the fence and falling over it to the other side. I remember having forgotten my key as a kid (we were latch-key kids, my brother and I) and having to climb up a deck (no stairs to the ground level) to get to the kitchen entrance, which was usually forgotten to be locked (phew! it was unlocked that time). That was quite the climb. LOL!
PS......I'm also determined to be finished on Bloomsday. We can do this. We're in the final stretch.
PSS......isn't this episode in the format of a Catechism? Isn't this considered a bit of a slog to those learning a Chatechism? Did Joyce mean this to be a bit of a slog for us?
I was also struggling a bit with Ithaca, but I did finish it this morning. I went to a Catholic school, and we did have to learn and recite answers to the Baltimore catechism, which this section seems to evoke.
I'm so happy to be in the home stretch!
I'm so happy to be in the home stretch!
Petra wrote: "PSS......isn't this episode in the format of a Catechism? Isn't this considered a bit of a slog to those learning a Chatechism? Did Joyce mean this to be a bit of a slog for us?"Yes, maybe he did!
Petra wrote: "I just finished Eumaeus.....I don't remember if I ever noticed, in previous readings, that Bloom is planning Stephen's future as a Tenor! The boy must have a wonderful voice! I suppose I must have..."
I loved the long section on Bloom's interest in opera music. We see why he is married to a singer, why that is so important to him.
Here are a few other exceprts from this chapter :
"and sherlockhomsing him up" - what a great gerund!
"It's a patent absurdity on the face of it to hate people because they live round the corner and speak another vernacular, so to speak." - Hear, hear! Was reading about the Sri Lankan civil war, somebody obviously wasn't listening.
"But a day of reckoning, he stated crescendo with no uncertain voice — thoroughly monopolising all the conversation — was in store for mighty England, despite her power of pelf on account of her crimes. There would be a fall and the greatest fall in history. The Germans and the Japs were going to have their little lookin, he affirmed."
Ulysses was written decades before the Second World War. How prescient of him.
On to Ithaca!
Gill wrote: "He (Bloom) thought that he (Stephen) thought that he (Bloom) was a Jew whereas he (Bloom) knew that he (Stephen) knew that he (Bloom) knew that he (Stephen) was not...."This was a great sentence, Gill. It's so simple, yet quite the mind-bender.
I liked the discussion about age ratios, how they changed over time and what it would mean if they remained the same. It's another section where the concept is basic but Joyce worded it so that concentration is required to read through it.
I like the glimpses we're getting into Bloom's younger life. The image of his younger self exercising in front of a mirror, using an exercise book as a guide, is humorous.
I had to chuckle at his being "baptised" by those three boys under a pump. Poor Bloom.
We aren't learning as much about Stephen (yet?), though.
If you think about it, this is episode is quite the discussion to be having after the day that both Bloom and Stephen have had. They've been up for some hours now, have worked & walked through the day, drank, got drunk/tipsy, spent some time in the red light district and are now discussing the topics of the ages through the night. I'm not sure if I'd be up to that or if I'd just fall asleep in my cocoa.
.....that reminds me: it was rather sweet that Bloom didn't use his favorite mug for the cocoa just so that he and Stephen had matching mugs and Stephen felt at ease.
Bloom's thoughts about the intelligence of his little woman is always a surprising concept when I reach it. The idea of being "educated" by my husband....knowing that he thinks me stupid in many ways......would be very disheartening in a marriage. It adds some understanding as to why Molly takes lovers. She's probably looking for acceptance and fun; not "improvement" and disapproval. It just goes to show that nothing is ever one-sided.
Father Conmee got another mention. I like how Joyce brings his characters back into play again and again.
I think the idea of 'educating' your wife was much more prevalent then than now, anyway I hope so! Mind you, I think Bloom is keen on educating everyone.There's lots that I do like in Ithaca. As you know, I'm a fan of the lists that appear, and there are some excellent ones here!
E.g. Eeltraps, lobsterpots, fishingrods etc etc
Also The list of the miscellaneous effects of female personal wearing apparel that had been perceived by him!
And As less reprehensible and theft, less reprehensible and theft, highway robbery, cruelty to children and animals etc etc
And, more sadly, the list of his companions now in various manners in different places defunct.
Although I knew it was coming, I did feel rather sad that, when Bloom suggested to Stephen he could stay over night, Stephen declined. And although they ran through a list of possible things which meant they might meet up again, I wonder whether or not they will? That we will never know! How about the section of the catechism that starts What occupied the position originally occupied by the sideboard? (view spoiler) I know it's only a story but it does make me very sad . That's the skill of an excellent writer I guess.
That's me finished with Ithaca. I'll be starting to read Penelope on Monday or Tuesday.
Gill wrote: "I think the idea of 'educating' your wife was much more prevalent then than now, anyway I hope so! Mind you, I think Bloom is keen on educating everyone. ..."Yeah....I know.....I guess I want Bloom to be more progressive than that. We get to know him so well in this book that he's almost a friend.
There are a lot of insights in this episodes. I'm still surprised at the new things I notice with each reading. It makes me wonder how many other details are still in there that I have yet to discover. Each reading still takes time and concentration; it gets easier but never easy. What I'm realizing is that Joyce has given us a very intimate look into a man and into many other people in a way that other authors haven't done. He's delved right into the core of Bloom, there are no secrets.....yet he hid those core items so they aren't clearly laid out for the reader, we have to look for them.
I don't know if I worded that clearly.
I like the format of the catechism. It's not the easiest to read but it gives answers to specific questions and that allows us to see deeper into both Bloom and Stephen, in a way that is compact and contained. If Joyce had brought out all these tiny details in another style of writing, this book would be quadruple the size and so drawn out we might lose interest.
I should be finished with this episode today and ready to start Penelope.
Gill, about your spoiler, I agree. The household is in a sad situation. (view spoiler)
Oh, about Stephen and Bloom:I hope they find a way for Bloom to be Stephen's mentor and guide but it's hard to predict what will happen.
It's hard to form a friendship between two generations. The generations look at things differently, not by much but enough to bring out differences as well as similarities. It takes an openness for each to accept the generational things that the other finds unacceptable (? perhaps the wrong word) and get beyond that. For example, the younger generation may party with drugs, the older generation frowns on that and conversation could get judgemental, which would be a turn-off for the younger person. Or the older generation tells about his golf game and the younger generation gets bored and attention wanders off.
So, it's hard to talk and confide about one's week with someone who may become judgemental or bored about it. That's not why we discuss things with our friends. We like to have common interest in what the other is relating. Could Stephen and Bloom reach that point?
I would hope so and really wish it for them. It would help each of them feel more secure and part of their world.
A little pre comment about Penelope. I read that it consists of 8 sentences, which I never noticed last time round. I've just realised that, in my edition, the end of each sentence is indicated by starting a new line, not with a full stop.
I finished Ithaca. Joyce worded this section particularly difficult in places. His words went round and round and it took concentration to figure out the convolutions. A couple of things
1. Molly has had quite a list of lovers, including Paddy Digman and a priest!!!
2. Bloom is a saint or a patsy for remaining friends with people he knows have slept with his wife. What kind of a friend sleeps with his friend's wife??!!
3. Bloom seems to forgive (?) or at least accept Molly's behavior and will do so in future. He seems to have decided that he'd rather be with her than without and that she's important to him and his happiness.
Onwards to Penelope. We're in the home stretch. Get ready for Bloomsday. :D
A couple of images so that we can start Penelope on a fresh page:
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Petra, hope things are improving for your husband. Thinking of you both.