Ulysses by James Joyce Readalong & Re-Readalongs (2014, 2016); Audio Listen-Along (2017) Showing 1,001-1,050 of 1,985

[[deleted user]]

Geoffrey and Petra, I've found your posts amazingly helpful. I think I'm struggling with this more than some of the other first-time readers.

[Petra]

Hang in there, Terri. Ulysses can take a little getting used to and the first time can be intimidating at times. Feel free to comment on your frustrations; we've all done that (check out the episode comments from last year). LOL!

[Geoffreyjen]

It is interesting reading your comments, Pink and Gill (and Petra) about Haines and Buck. I kind of viewed these as simply portrayals of people I don't know very well, almost as if I met them at a party somewhere. I tend not to be very judgemental towards people, I'm always looking for positive aspects, although I do sometimes take an almost instant dislike to someone. On this basis, Buck I kind of luck, even though I would be wary of him, he seems overly imbued with himself. Haines I don't dislike entirely at first, I even find some things about him interesting, but antipathy grows.

However, reading your remarks makes me aware of how utterly British I find these two to be. Someone like Buck I might meet in North America, Haines I doubt it. Not that there aren't people like Haines over here, but he would have a different set of mannerisms. I don't quite know how to explain myself. Even Stephen seems very "British" to me... I know he (and Joyce!) were Irish, but although technically Ireland is a different culture and nation, from a North American stance, at the risk of causing offence, the differences are not substantive.

I say this as someone who grew up in the UK and emigrated as a boy to Canada. These people remind me of folk I knew in England as a boy, and very little of folk I knew as a young man in Canada. Not in essence, people are the same everywhere, but in mannerisms, the way they stand and talk, the ways they disclaim and hold their bodies. Haines is "stiff" in the way only a certain kind of Englishman is stiff. Disdainful, and yet, at times, reluctantly companiable. And remembering the real life incident of the pistol going off, slightly mad underneath the surface veneer, but that is also in character.

Not sure my meaning is entirely clear. Or even what I'm trying to say!

[Cosmic]

Geoffrey wrote: "Gill wrote: "A bit of an aside..."

I'm also reading something else which is a bit of a non sequitur, while still being relevant somehow. Over Christmas, a friend was telling me about a new book de..."

Did you get the hard copy or the kindle version of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland Decoded: The Full Text of Lewis Carroll's Novel with its Many Hidden Meanings Revealed

[Cosmic]

Geoffrey wrote: "It is interesting reading your comments, Pink and Gill (and Petra) about Haines and Buck. I kind of viewed these as simply portrayals of people I don't know very well, almost as if I met them at a ..."

I have the same feeling. Even Buck says that Stephen has a bit of an aristocratic air to him and Haines is jealous.

I don't really feel that connected to any of these people. I didn't feel connected to the people in the The Odyssey either.

I just remain curious!

[Geoffreyjen]

Cosmic wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "Gill wrote: "A bit of an aside..."

I'm also reading something else which is a bit of a non sequitur, while still being relevant somehow. Over Christmas, a friend was telling me ab..."

Actually I bought the Kindle version. I'm not a purist.

G

[[deleted user]]

Geoffrey wrote: "It is interesting reading your comments, Pink and Gill (and Petra) about Haines and Buck. I kind of viewed these as simply portrayals of people I don't know very well, almost as if I met them at a ..."

Geoffrey, your comments make sense to me, and I find them enormously helpful. Keep them coming. :)

[Pink]

Yes great comments Geoffrey and I think I know what you mean. I need to read further to get more than just an initial impression of Buck and Haines.

[Petra]

It's quiet in here. Everyone still reading?

I'm almost through Calypso and really enjoying it. I really like Leopold Bloom and look forward to our time with him.

Here's a short clip of Episode 4, told in pictures:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alVFM...
I'm currently at "sexy book" in my reading.

Time-wise, we've gone backwards. We left Stephen at about noon and catch up with Leopold at 8am. Both of them were having breakfast at about the same time.
Their mornings are quite different all the same;
- Bloom takes care of Molly's needs as well as his own and the cat's by preparing the meal; Stephen gives money as a way of caring for Buck & Haines.
- Bloom has to go out to get his breakfast; Stephen's is brought to him.
None of that probably means anything.

The themes for Calypso are:
4. CALYPSO
TIME: 8.00 am.
SCENE: Leopold Bloom's house, 7 Eccles Street, in the northwest quadrant of Dublin.
ORGAN: Kidney
ART: Economics
COLOURS: Orange
SYMBOL: Nymph
TECHNIQUE: Narrative (mature)

The kidney and nymph themes are pretty obvious. Bloom seems to like his organ meat and Molly seems to be nymphish (reading sexy novels; getting secret letters). :D
I haven't noticed "orange" yet.

Has anyone finished this week's reading of both Episodes 4 & 5 (Calypso and Lotus Eaters)?

[Gill]

I've finished Calypso but not the following episode. I've very little internet connection this fortnight. So sorry, not many comments from me!

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "I've finished Calypso but not the following episode. I've very little internet connection this fortnight. So sorry, not many comments from me!"

No need to apologize, Gill. I haven't made many comments either. Just curious as to how our newbies are enjoying Bloom (and what we're all thinking about these two sections).

I hope everyone knows that any questions or frustrations can be asked or vented here. We're not only about the beauty and joy of Joyce. :D

[Gill]

Re Calypso, I really enjoyed the contrast between Bloom's down to earth thoughts, so much about food, people, bodily functions etc compared to Stephen's 'airy fairy' musings. What a contrast this is between the two of them. I'm not saying I prefer one or the other though.

[[deleted user]]

I've finished Calypso and Lotus Eaters--at least my first reading of them. Bloom intrigues me, and Gill, I liked your comparison of Bloom to Dedalus. I was raised Catholic and I've read a lot about the Jesuits, so all the Catholic rituals and prayer references are easy for me to spot.

(view spoiler)[One thing I noticed was the flower imagery in Lotus Eaters. Bloom gets a letter from his lover, and the name Henry Flower is on the envelope. There's a yellow flower enclosed with the letter, and after he reads it, Bloom goes on a riff about flowers.

...Language of flowers. They like it because no-one can hear. Or a poison bouquet to strike him down. Then, walking slowly forward, he read the letter again, murmuring her and there a word. Angry tulips with you darling manflower punish your cactus if you don't please poor forgetmenot how I long violets to dear roses when we soon anemone meet all naughty nightstalk wife Martha's perfume...

(Try reading that last sentence out loud.)

And then there's the ending, with Bloom seeing his penis as "a languid floating flower." (hide spoiler)]

I'm really enjoying reading this, and I never would have attempted it without the group support.

[Pink]

Bit behind, been a busy week, but I'll make time to read some more tomorrow and post my thoughts.

[Petra]

I also find Bloom calmer and more down to earth than Stephen. It's nice to read about everyday things in a sauntering pace.
I always get a kick out of Bloom ogling the girl in the butcher shop.

Terri, I'm glad that you're enjoying the book. I'm always happy when this book is enjoyed. It's quite a treat, in its way.....yet the book is so often shunned. I doubt if I would have read it without group support as well the first time. I'm glad we have this strong group of people who are genuinely interested and fun.

Pink, life gets busy sometimes. There's plenty of time to read this week's section.

[Gill]

Petra wrote: "Gill wrote: "I've finished Calypso but not the following episode. I've very little internet connection this fortnight. So sorry, not many comments from me!"

No need to apologize, Gill. I haven't m..."

I'm a bit frustrated, any time there's wifi about I dash in, switch on my iPad and try to catch up! Oh dear, the difficulties of being on holiday!

[Gill]

Re Calypso

I loved the 'ate with relish the inner organs ....' Etc section. Such relish! (Even though I'm vegetarian!)

Re Professor Goodwin, 'And the little mirror in his silk hat'. Is this to look up women's skirts when he bows? Or have I misunderstood this completely?

'Stepping hastily down the stairs with a flurried stork's legs' What a fabulous description! Joyce is so good with words,

[Gill]

Terri, re your spoiler, great observations re the language in Lotus Eaters. I can imagine using audio is great for this section.

[Gill]

Re HADES


I know this is a couple of days early, but I came across it somewhere. It describes who Ulysses/Odysseus meets while in Hades. The suggestion was to see how this links to the people Bloom meets during Episode 6. I'll be interested to see whether there is much connection.

In Book 9 of The Odyssey, Odysseus recounts his adventures in the lands of the Cicones, the Lotus Eaters, and the Cyclopes. In Book 10 Odysseus and his men reach the isle of Aeolus, the "wind king"; then they meet disaster in the land of the Lestrygonians and finally arrive at Circe's island. Circe advises Odysseus to go down to Hades, the world of the dead, to consult the shade, or spirit, of the blind prophet Tiresias before continuing the voyage. In Book 11 Odysseus descends into Hades; the first shade he meets is that of Elpenor, one of his men who, drunk and asleep, had fallen to his death in Circe's hall. Elpenor requests that Odysseus return to Circe's island and give his corpse a proper burial; Odysseus so promises. Odysseus then speaks with Tiresias, who tells him that it is Poseidon, god of the sea and the earthquake, who is preventing Odysseus from reaching his home. Tiresias warns Odysseus: if his men violate the cattle of the sun god, Helios, the men will all be lost, the difficulties of Odysseus's voyage will be radically increased, and upon his arrival home he will find his house beset with suitors, "insolent men" whom he will have to make "atone in blood" (11:116, 118; Fitzgerald, p. 200). Tiresias closes his prophecy by promising Odysseus a "rich old age" and "a seaborne death soft as this hand of mist" (11:134, 137; Fitzgerald, p. 201). Odysseus then speaks with the shade of his mother and sees the shades of many famous women. He speaks with Agamemnon and learns of Agamemnon's homecoming and of his death at the hands of his wife, Clytemnestra, and her lover. Odysseus speaks with Achilles and approaches Ajax, who, driven mad by the gods, had died by his own hand after Odysseus was awarded the dead Achilles' armor as the new champion of the Greeks. Ajax refuses to speak. Odysseus glimpses other shades, including that of Sisyphus, condemned to push a boulder up a hill eternally. He then speaks to Hercules, who is not a shade but a "phantom," because Hercules himself rests among the immortal gods. Hercules, reminded by Odysseus's presence in the flesh, tells the story of his twelfth labor, his own descent into Hades while he was still alive, when he had to capture the "watchdog of the dead," Cerberus (11:623; Fitzgerald, p. 217). Odysseus then returns to his ship and to Circe's island.

(from Don Gifford with Robert J. Seidman, "Ulysses" Annotated: Notes for James Joyce's "Ulysses" [Berkeley: University of California Press, 1988], p. 104. The first numbers following quotes from The Odyssey [for example, 1:115] refer to book and line numbers in the Greek text; English translations, unless otherwise noted, are from The Odyssey, translated by Robert Fitzgerald [New York: Doubleday, 1961])

[Gill]

My mind has gone blank. Are Ulysses and Odysseus the same person. Why 2 names?

[Cosmic]

Terri wrote: "I've finished Calypso and Lotus Eaters--at least my first reading of them. Bloom intrigues me, and Gill, I liked your comparison of Bloom to Dedalus. I was raised Catholic and I've read a lot about..."

Those were very good insights, Thank you! I looked up the flowers on wiki and they indeed did have a language!

[Cosmic]

I look up these words as well as the flowers. I am amazed at Joyce's depth and knowledge of so many things, without Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calyp...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibra...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metem...

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "Oh dear, the difficulties of being on holiday! ..."

LOL!.....yeah....."difficulties".......
Keep having fun, Gill!

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "Re Calypso

I loved the 'ate with relish the inner organs ....' Etc section. Such relish! (Even though I'm vegetarian!)

Re Professor Goodwin, 'And the little mirror in his silk hat'. Is this to look up women's skirts when he bows? Or have I misunderstood this completely?

'Stepping hastily down the stairs with a flurried stork's legs' What a fabulous description! Joyce is so good with words,
..."

I also enjoyed how Bloom enjoyed his meal. I don't have time in the morning for such a relaxed, savored breakfast and I loved reading about someone who enjoys this ritual in life. He got so immersed in living that one experience.

I missed the Professor Godwin observation.....going back to find it. I wouldn't doubt that you're right and it's for looking up women's skirts. LOL! Joyce is funny (humorous).

I also read the "flurried stork legs" paragraph a couple of times. It was an amazingly descriptive and picturesque way of describing Bloom. There have been other descriptive sentences that I savor and reread. Joyce has a wonderful way with words.

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "My mind has gone blank. Are Ulysses and Odysseus the same person. Why 2 names?"

They are; one name is the Greek version; the other the Latin. From Wiki:
Odysseus, also known by the Latin name Ulysseus, was a legendary Greek king of Ithaca and the hero of Homer's epic poem the Odyssey.

[Petra]

Cosmic wrote: " I am amazed at Joyce's depth and knowledge of so many things, without Wikipedia.."

I'm often amazed at the level of education that must have been available in certain circles. They seem to have learned all about the ancient texts and myths. It must have been amazing (although I doubt the schoolkids thought that at the time). And Latin! I always wanted to learn Latin.
Classical education seems to have been very detailed and Joyce seems to have remembered all of it.

[Petra]

I'm about half through Lotus Eaters and am really enjoying the sauntering, relaxed pace of Bloom's thoughts and wanderings.

Terri, your insights on this episode are spot on.

[Pink]

I've had to put this down for a while. Not because I don't like it, but I'm racing through, trying to complete the next couple of chapters, when i don't have time to sit and savour the text. My daughter's on a rare visit home from Uni this weekend, so I won't have time to read anything that needs attention. I'm going to start again from the beginning of Calypso, as I think I missed everything trying to get it read, rather than enjoy the story. I'll catch up with my thoughts Monday, sorry, I feel like I'm lagging behind everyone already, but I'm enjoying reading all of your comments and they've been really helpful and insightful so far.

[Petra]

No pressure, Pink. We're reading this slowly enough that there won't be any "getting behind". It's all flow and ebb with this book, which includes the reader's life.
You won't get behind. Enjoy the visit with your daughter.

[Geoffreyjen]

Pink wrote: "I've had to put this down for a while. Not because I don't like it, but I'm racing through, trying to complete the next couple of chapters, when i don't have time to sit and savour the text. My dau..."

I have also dropped behind due to a busy weekend last week and an extra busy week at work. Catching up today, though - finished up Proteus and read Calypso. Here are some nearly random thoughts/reflections about those two chapters :

I liked this passage about Stephen : "Reading two pages apiece of seven books every night, eh? I was young. You bowed to yourself in the mirror, stepping forward to applause earnestly, striking face." I found I related to this, the kinds of thoughts I may have had as a young man. I found him sympathetic in this description.

Bloom is someone with whom I feel comfortable now, in a way I didn't when I was a young man reading this text. I am closer in age to Bloom than to Stephan, and I find I understand Bloom much better now. He is relaxed and accepting rather than tense and constantly searching as Stephen is.

Proteus got us used to the stream of consciousness style of writing, and now, in Calypso, which is easier to read that Proteus, we simply accept it without complaining, or even noticing much.

Announcement of Hermes the messenger in his winged sandals come to fetch Odysseus from Calypso's island : "Quick warm sunlight came running from Berkeley road, swiftly, in slim sandals, along the brightening footpath. Runs, she runs to meet me, a girl with gold hair on the wind."

The cat's meouw : "Mrkrgnao"... so much more expressive!

Joyce uses French formatting to report dialiogue :
"- Mrkrgnao! the cat said loudly." - this style makes spoken language feel more embedded within thoughts expressed via stream-of-consciousness ... it all blurs together. Quotation marks would set off the one from the other.

In this chapter, Bloom only hints at problems with the suitors that he will build up in much more detail later on. This is the island of Calypso, where dalliance is intermingled (in Homer's story) with yearnings for home. And while Bloom is out of the house, although he is distracted by other women, his thoughts tend to go back to his wife unerringly.

[Geoffreyjen]

Gill wrote: "Re Calypso

Re Professor Goodwin, 'And the little mirror in his silk hat'. Is this to look up women's skirts when he bows?..."

That was what I understood, too! Must have read about it somewhere!

[Geoffreyjen]

Here is another crazy thought. Could Joyce be punning about the toilet as a throne? Odysseus is an exiled king - when Bloom goes out to the outhouse, he occupies such a position. Wouldn't put it passed Joyce to work that joke in...

[Gill]

Geoffrey wrote: "Here is another crazy thought. Could Joyce be punning about the toilet as a throne? Odysseus is an exiled king - when Bloom goes out to the outhouse, he occupies such a position. Wouldn't put it pa..."

Yes, I like this idea, Geoffrey!


Another question to all, I lost track of why Bloom bought the soap. Do we know this already or do we find out later?

[Gill]

Announcement of Hermes the messenger in his winged sandals come to fetch Odysseus from Calypso's island : "Quick warm sunlight came running from Berkeley road, swiftly, in slim sandals, along the brightening footpath. Runs, she runs to meet me, a girl with gold hair on the wind."


Thanks for this, Geoffrey. I must go back and find it! I've not noticed it, on any read. It's lovely!

Edited to add, just found it and it's followed by the letters on the hall floor. Yes, it's Hermes the messenger!

[Ruth]

I finally started Ulysses ! I am up to date with our readalong date. It actually isn't as daunting as I thought it would be...so far anyway !

[Pink]

I'm still a bit behind. I've finished Calypso, which I found a little confusing, but interesting. I have no idea how the Blooms connect to the story, but I liked that it covered a different but similar morning scene of the same day. Bloom's stream of consciousness is definitely more mundane than the poetic thoughts of Stephen, but they make a good contrast to one another. I'm looking forward to reading more about Molly.

[Geoffreyjen]

Pink wrote: "I'm still a bit behind. I've finished Calypso, which I found a little confusing, but interesting. I have no idea how the Blooms connect to the story, but I liked that it covered a different but sim..."

I'm curious what you found confusing about Calypso, Pink. Could you elaborate a bit more?

[Pink]

Yes, I was surprised to be a little confused in this chapter, as the language is much simpler to understand. It took me a little while to get to grips with the change in writing style, which had lots of short abrupt sentences, which seemed to be fragmented thoughts. Once I got the hang of this I was unsure who the different characters were, I was getting mixed up with Marion, Molly and Milly. Now I think I have it straight that Marion is Molly's real name and Milly is their daughter? I think I get the references to Calypso, with Bloom being Odysseus. His wanderings and thoughts returning to his wife. I read notes that said Molly is both Calypso and later Penelope, does this sound right?

I'm halfway through the Lotus Eaters now.

[Petra]

You've got it, Pink.
Milly is the 15-year old daughter, Molly & Bloom lost a son (who would have been 11 had he lived), Leopold likes to eye the woman but loves Molly.

As for writing style, it starts to get interesting now. Almost every episode is written in a different style. Just as we're getting used to one, it changes on us. Probably another of Joyce's jokes on the reader. :D

I found the Calypso episode gives us a good understanding of who Leopold Bloom is, his griefs and his uncertainties. It's a good start considering that we've only just met him. That's probably one of the reasons for getting confused: there's a lot of information being presented.

[Pink]

I finished Lotus Eaters, which on the surface seemed again simplistic in what happened, but of course with lots of hidden meaning. Another M name - Martha, the woman writing to Bloom. Does anyone have thoughts about these women's names? In the notes it said these are allusions to Mary and Martha from the bible, but I'm not familiar with their story.

[Pink]

Petra wrote: "You've got it, Pink.
Milly is the 15-year old daughter, Molly & Bloom lost a son (who would have been 11 had he lived), Leopold likes to eye the woman but loves Molly.

As for writing style, it s..."

Thanks, I think I have everyone clear in my head now. Before picking this book up I was familiar with the name Molly Bloom, but I thought she was much younger. I'm not sure why, but in my head she was a younger girl and so it took me a while to adjust my preconceptions of her. I was confused when I read about a 15 year old daughter!

I like the different writing styles, it's very clever of Joyce, but yes confusing!

[Geoffreyjen]

Pink wrote: "I finished Lotus Eaters, which on the surface seemed again simplistic in what happened, but of course with lots of hidden meaning. Another M name - Martha, the woman writing to Bloom. Does anyone h..."

Martha was the one who complained about doing everything for Jesus, I call her "Martha martyr" lol. Mary was her more amenable sister if I remember right, but not sure if that is the Mary referred to here. I'm glad you spelled out your issues, I was confused about Milly and Molly too, at first, and I don't think that I ever figured out that Marion was Molly!

[Gill]

Some thoughts on Hades:

Well, I didn't get very far matching the characters to people in Odyssey! But I did find and like this bit which links: Crowded on the spit of land silent shapes appeared etc etc (links to shades of famous women etc)

Has anyone read Dubliners? I understand several of the characters appear there.


Here Bloom sees Stephen, from the carriage where he is with S's Dad. His father doesn't see him though.

I felt much sympathy for Bloom here, first as he imagines how life would be if Rudy had lived, and then when we find out about his father.

I love the way that Joyce builds up the story, so we keep learning little bits about the characters.

[Petra]

How's everyone doing? Sorry that I haven't been around. My step-dad is staying with us and my reading time has been a bit curtailed.
I've just started Hades. I remember really liking this episode and look forward to reading it again.

Gill, I tend to have a lot of empathy for Bloom and find that I really feel for him. He's such a nice guy with so many worries. His grief for Rudy is so palpable since we've met him.

I haven't read Dubliners but have read somewhere that Joyce uses the same characters in some of his books.

[Gill]

I've decided to go on a diversion, and read Hamlet. I read it at school, but have only vague memories of it. I'll be interested to find out a bit about the links.

[Pink]

Geoffrey, I'm glad it wasn't just me who was confused by the names. I felt a bit daft not understanding who was who, as that should have been the simple part!

I haven't read Hades yet, as I still seem to be running a week behind. I'll try to get through it tomorrow as I believe the next chapter is a little longer.

Gill, I haven't read either Dubliners or Hamlet :(

[Geoffreyjen]

I am behind too. I have read half of Hades, but need to find the time to finish it. Busy time at work, and work tends to spill over into home time. My weekends aren't my own. Will try extra hard to keep up!

[[deleted user]]

I spent this morning rereading Hades and tomorrow I'll reread Aeolus before starting the new material. I've also decided to reread Hamlet, as Gill is doing. I got the reference in Hades to the "unweeded garden," and of course the gravediggers. But I'm wondering if I'm missing other references. And there was Mr. Dedalus talking about the man who murdered his brother.

The other thing I did was go back and read the comments from the first group read. I found this incredibly helpful.

[Petra]

Terri wrote: "The other thing I did was go back and read the comments from the first group read. I found this incredibly helpful. ."

I'm glad you visited last year's discussion, Terri, and found them helpful.

If anyone else wants to check them out, go to Post 1 of this thread for links to the beginning of the discussion for each episode.

[Gill]

I've finished reading Hamlet, which was very interesting. I don't know why it's never appealed to me before. Perhaps my view of the world is getting darker!

I need to gather my thoughts on Aeolus now.