Ulysses by James Joyce Readalong & Re-Readalongs (2014, 2016); Audio Listen-Along (2017) Showing 901-950 of 1,985

[Angela M]

How interesting,Geoffrey and thanks for the link to the Joyce Project. Love it .

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "Petra, it's ok for me because I've got a second copy I can check with. I mentioned it in case it's an issue for anyone else. I think the original printing didn't have episode headings??"

Okay, Gill. If anyone has problems differentiating the episodes we'll deal with it somehow.
That's right. The original didn't have headings to the episodes. My copy doesn't either but it very clearly differentiates the episodes by starting a new page for a new episode.

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "Petra, it's ok for me because I've got a second copy I can check with. I mentioned it in case it's an issue for anyone else. I think the original printing didn't have episode headings??"

Okay, Gill. As long as it isn't a problem for you.
That's right. The original book did not have headings for the episodes. Many copies today don't either. Mine doesn't but it differentiates the episodes by starting a new page for each.

Tom and Angela, I completely agree. Buck is one of those people that is always popular in social settings but doesn't have true friends in his private moments because he can't be one himself.

Good idea, Angela. I'll go back and look at my comments when I finish the episode. That will be fun.

[Petra]

Geoffrey, that is a great story! How wonderful to be living so close to a Martello Tower while reading this book and associating the book with your life. Really cool!

[Tom]

Geoffrey wrote: "Question - how can you be both stately and plump at the same time? I guess you can, but it's an odd combo lol"

former John Goodman?

[Petra]

In Episode 1, just after Buck borrows a quid from Steven and sings the coronation song:

Stephen contemplates whether to leave the shaving bowl on the rooftop as a symbol of "forgotten friendship". This event occurs after the fight with Buck about what he said when Stephen's mother died.
I didn't notice that before, I think (at least, it seems like a new thought). Stephen seems to be reconsidering his friendship with Buck......or am I reading too much into this contemplation?

[Gill]

I wonder who it is that has forgotten the friendship, Stephen or Buck? I'm sure you are not reading too much into it, Petra. We can read more and more into things! To continue with the bowl, wasn't it being used earlier as a symbol of the Catholic Mass, or have I misremembered this?

[Petra]

Also, I'd love to live in a Martello Tower, I think: a rooftop terrace (with a sea view, no less), a domed living room, flagged floors (I am assuming stone floors here)....... it sounds wonderfully unique and interesting. I'd have a great time decorating and living in this sort of space.

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "I wonder who it is that has forgotten the friendship, Stephen or Buck? I'm sure you are not reading too much into it, Petra. We can read more and more into things! To continue with the bowl, wasn't..."

Good question, Gil.
I think it would be Stephen who would be thinking of forgetting the friendship (breaking it off). Buck seems to be the type that doesn't understand or form friendships in the first place (so nothing is there to be forgotten). Buck seems superficial and basically concerned with himself & his pleasures.

True, the bowl did represent the Mass (or part of it, at least). So many symbols for such a simple object.

[Gill]

Another thing I've just thought of. I think Buck is based on a friend of Joyce's, Oliver somebody, need to look it up. I wonder whether the friendship comment links to that also?

[Gill]

Here we are, Oliver St John Gogarty

From Wikipedia 'Upon returning to Dublin in the summer of 1904, Gogarty made arrangements to rent the famous Martello Tower in Sandycove. The primary goal of this scheme, as described by Gogarty in a letter to G.K.A. Bell, was to "house the Bard" (i.e. James Joyce), who was without money and required "a year in which to finish his novel."[10] The two friends quarrelled in August, however, and Joyce either failed to move in or left shortly after doing so. Joyce briefly took up residence in the Tower the following month, together with Gogarty and his Oxford friend Samuel Chenevix Trench (a setup which later provided inspiration for the opening chapter of Ulysses) but left again suddenly after only six days.[11] Forty years later in America, Gogarty would attribute Joyce's abrupt departure to his and S.C. Trench's midnight antics with a loaded revolver.[12] Joyce and Gogarty corresponded intermittently during the early years of Joyce's continental exile and occasionally planned meetings, but contemporaneous letters from Joyce to his brother reveal deep distrust of Gogarty's motives,[13] and their friendship was never fully renewed. Gogarty made use of the Martello Tower during the following year as a writing retreat and party venue, and officially held the lease until 1925.'

[Gill]

And here are Gogarty and Joyce together:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/4880707...

[Geoffreyjen]

Gill wrote: "I wonder who it is that has forgotten the friendship, Stephen or Buck? I'm sure you are not reading too much into it, Petra. We can read more and more into things! To continue with the bowl, wasn't..."

I think Buck is, at least part of the time, one of the suitors, and so definitely someone in whom Stephen cannot place his complete trust. The shaving bowl makes me think of the bowls and vessels in the Odyssey in which things are constantly being served - food, water to drink and water to wash one's hands in.

[Geoffreyjen]

Gill wrote: "Here we are, Oliver St John Gogarty

From Wikipedia 'Upon returning to Dublin in the summer of 1904, Gogarty made arrangements to rent the famous Martello Tower in Sandycove. The primary goal of th..."

The Joyce Project has this to say about the incident : "Joyce was living at the tower, largely at Gogarty’s expense and "sufferance"... Relations were strained, but Gogarty did not want to endanger his bohemian reputation, and his chance of appearing in a good light in Joyce's fiction, by putting Joyce out. Trench, whom Gogarty knew from Oxford and who had become a fervent follower of the Irish Revival, was living with them in the tower. On the night of September 14, 1904 Trench woke up screaming about a black panther that was about to spring on him, fired his revolver at the fireplace beside which Joyce was sleeping, and then went back to sleep. His nightmare returned and he screamed once more and reached for his revolver, but Gogarty had taken it. Gogarty said, “Leave him to me,” and shot some pots and pans over Joyce’s bed, which crashed down on him. "The terrified Joyce considered this fusillade his dismissal". He got up, dressed, left the tower, and walked all the way to Dublin. The next day, he wrote a note to a friend asking him to go to the tower and pack up his trunk."

I must admit this was a revelation to me, and, I think, not only situates the whole opening sequence in a new light, but also Joyce's intentions in placing this whole sequence of events in relation to the Telemachus story in the Oddyssey. Joyce left Ireland for France at that point - so even though Stephen does not leave Dublin in the book (and how could he, it all takes place within 24 hours), in a sense Stephen/Joyce do leave for distant shores.

[Gill]

Interesting that Joyce changes a situation where Gogarty pays the rent and lets Joyce live in the Martello Tower for free, into Stephen/Joyce paying the rent and Buck/Gogarty putting upon him. Some real artistic licence here. I wonder how far Joyce had got with the book whilst living there? Had he got it planned out around the Odyssey already?

[Petra]

Gill and Geoffrey, that's an interesting story about Joyce. I think I'd move out, too.
As Gill says, it's interesting that he turned the story around a bit, too.

The first episode fairly closely follows The Odyssey. Telemachus is in danger of losing his home and fortune. Stephen is voluntarily walking away from his home (at least temporarily) by saying he can't return that evening & giving the key away; he's also in danger of losing his "fortune" by giving his money away, little as it may be.
Both he and Telemachus are out of place and uncomfortable in their situations and surroundings.

From something we read last year about Episode 3: I'm still looking for the mention of Stephen losing or forgetting his glasses somewhere in the first 2 episodes. Glasses weren't mentioned in the first episode at all (unless I missed it....again).
I'll talk this more later but it's rather bugged me all year (when I think of this book, that is) because it's part of the book's analysis' and summaries but doesn't seem to be written in the pages for the reader to pick up on.
It seems so very un-Joyce-like not to put every detail into the book when it's needed. With all the ripple-effects (action and consequences) throughout, this seems like a detail that Joyce would have included.

[Cosmic]

Angela M wrote: "How interesting,Geoffrey and thanks for the link to the Joyce Project. Love it ."

Wow, that is cool! I just reread the first line of Ulysses and didn't realize just how much was there. I especially like the footnote on the "mirror and the cross".

The cross reminds me of a line in Don Quixote
"Behind ever cross is the devil."

I heard something this week about three mirror in mythology, i am going to try to find it.
Mirrors
http://www.hayneedle.com/mirror-myths...

And here:
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/the-magi...

Add this to the notes on The Joyce Project
http://joyceproject.com/

And this becomes a pretty impregnated first sentence.

[Ruth]

Finally I get to start Ulysses ! I have a free day and I plan on reading all day. Glad to have everyone's help with reading this book. Looking forward to the discussions :-)

[Cosmic]

"The yellow dressing gown"

The Joyce Project refers to the
Cathar yellow cross.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catha...

[Gill]

Re glasses, which I've also had on my mind Petra! I've come across 2 things in the last couple of months. One is that it tells you in the Circe episode, not in Telemachus, that Stephen broke his glasses the previous day. The other is that in Portrait of the Artist there's a part where he has broken his glasses as a boy.

[Jennifer]

I will have to watch for your next group read.

[Gill]

To those of you who are reading this for the first time, please don't be put off by the detailed discussion of shaving bowls, glasses etc etc. My strategy last time round was to read each episode, which in most cases, I found enjoyable, and look at a straightforward study guide for each episode also, either before or during reading it.

I found this one good

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature...


There's also Schmoop that does one.

[Gill]

Here we are from Circes:

STEPHEN: (Brings the match near his eye) Lynx eye. Must get glasses. Broke them yesterday. Sixteen years ago. Distance. The eye sees all flat

[Cosmic]

Gill wrote: "Here we are from Circes:

STEPHEN: (Brings the match near his eye) Lynx eye. Must get glasses. Broke them yesterday. Sixteen years ago. Distance. The eye sees all flat"

I would think that to see flat means you don't have 3-D perception.
Perhaps denoting a lazy eye.

" People with amblyopia also have problems of binocular vision such as limited stereoscopic depth perception and usually have difficulty seeing the three-dimensional images in hidden stereoscopic displays such as autostereograms.[9] Perception of depth, however, from monocular cues such as size, perspective, and motion parallax remains normal."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambly...

Maybe 16 years ago his eye went crooked.

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "Here we are from Circes:

STEPHEN: (Brings the match near his eye) Lynx eye. Must get glasses. Broke them yesterday. Sixteen years ago. Distance. The eye sees all flat"

Aha! Then not only the beach scene but up until he gets new glasses, Stephen is not seeing correctly. Things are out of focus and blurry. That also adds to the beginning section, showing that Stephen is not seeing his life, surroundings (and circumstances?) clearly; everything is a blur to him..

[Cosmic]

Petra wrote:Aha! Then not only the beach scene but up until he gets new glasses, Stephen is not seeing correctly. Things are out of focus and blurry. That also adds to the beginning section, showing that Stephen is not seeing his life, surroundings (and circumstances?) clearly; everything is a blur to him.. ..."

And his perception is off. He sees flat.

[[deleted user]]

I'm finding The Joyce Project website invaluable. This is the first time reading Ulysses for me. What I've been doing is reading the passage on the web site, taking in all the notes. Then I'm rereading the passage in my book, which does not have notes or any explanation. It's working well for me so far.

I would encourage everyone to check out the site and watch the performance of

I am the boy
That can enjoy
Invisibility.

It's very well done.

Here's the link that was previously posted by Geoffrey.

http://joyceproject.com

[Petra]

Cosmic wrote: ""The yellow dressing gown"

I've been thinking of this, too, Cosmic. According to The Joyce Project, the color is indicative of heresy. It also says that the robe being "ungirdled" supposedly indicated Buck's enjoyment of visiting brothels.
Joyce is saying a lot more about Buck in this episode than I had first thought.

I gather that Joyce uses the definition of "heresy" in terms of the Church in Ulysses. In scientific terms, it can be complimentary, meaning that someone questions the norm and offers other theories. I don't think Joyce meant for Buck to be seen in such positive terms.
So Buck is a brothel-loving, non-believer (religion, friendship, life?), who is spiritually (and physically?) cut off from the Church.
That's probably only scratching the surface of what Joyce is saying about him.

Something I learned from Episode 1: I thought "primrose" was a deep, velvety, rich pink-red colour.......it's a pale yellow! Buck wears a primrose vest on June 16th.....more yellow to point to his role as disbeliever.

[Petra]

Cosmic wrote: "And this becomes a pretty impregnated first sentence. ..."

It's kind of mind-boggling, isn't it? Perhaps that's what Joyce meant when he said that he put so much into the book that it would keep scholars busy for quite some time.

[Petra]

For all of you reading for the first time, I agree with Gill.
Enjoy each episode for what it is, ask and comment here about anything that comes to mind (Joyce probably meant for "anything" to come to mind) and read an on-line summary & analysis.
In addition to the ones that Gill mentioned, you can check out last year's discussions (use the links in Post 1). We referenced a few summaries at the beginning of each discussion to help us along.
Please comment as you read along. We want to hear your thoughts on this work.

[Geoffreyjen]

Also the density of readings in the very first chapter is larger than for later chapters... not necessarily because of anything Joyce did, but because this is the opening of the book, I think. It is like a busy lawn space, so many feet have passed across it that the grass has worn down here. Later on, the ground is less trammelled. I myself have read this chapter many more times than other chapters.

But I do agree, Petrea, it is awesome the complexity of what Joyce was doing. Talk about writing in layers! Some of it may have been subconscious, but there is a great deal of intentional design here as well.

[Gill]

Petra, don't you have primroses in BC?

There's also the Primrose League, may or may not be relevant:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primr...

I remember my grandmother was a member, much disapproved of by my parents!

[Gill]

Re Joyce's Trieste Notebooks:
The Trieste Notebook

Introductory Note

This alphabetical notebook postdates the completion of Stephen Hero. Most of the entries in it seem to have been made between 1907, when Stephen Hero was abandoned, and 1909, when Joyce visited Ireland and recorded the details of Michael Healy's room. It repreaents to a considerable extent a regathering of materials for A Portrait. The materials on J. F. Byrne in the Pola notebook were used in Stephen Hero. The materials on Byrne in the Trieste notebook were used in A Portrait. As late as the composition of Ulysses, Joyce found some of the entries in this diary useful, such as those on his parents and on Oliver Gogarty. Joyce's subsequent uses of this material have been noted in brackets after each notebook entry. The manuscript of this notebook: is at Cornell.


Re Gogarty (Oliver Saint John) [Buck Mulligan in U]

He speaks fluently in two jargons, that of the paddock and that of the science of medicine.

The plump shaven face and the sullen oval jowl recall some prelate, patron of arts in the middle ages. [U 5/3]

The most casual scenes appear to his mind as the theatres of so many violent sexual episodes and casual objects as gross sexual symbols.

He fears the lancet of my art as I fear that of his. [U 8/7]

He addresses lifeless objects and hits them smartly with his cane: the naturalism of the Celtic mind.

He has a horse-like face and hair grained and hued like pale oak. He calls thought the secretion of the brain-cells and says that Ireland secretes priests. [U 5, 40/3, 39; also I,7 below]

The Omphalos was to be the temple of a neo-paganism. [U 9, 19, 396/7,17, 402 and 1,7 below]

His money smells bad.

He wore scapulars in the baths at Howth.

His coarseness of speech is not the blasphemy of a romantic. [1,7 below]

Dubliners who slighted me esteemed him as peasants esteem a bone-setter or the redskins their medicine-man. [U 16/14]

His coarseness is the mask of his cowardice of spirit. [1,7 below]

A butler served in his house. When his old fellow died this butler was stationed outside Clery's {anciently Mac Swiney, Delaney and Co's) emporium to help ladies to alight from their carriages. Gogarty spoke of him as the exposed butler and often told him in a pig's whisper that he had put up a dozen of stout for him round the corner.

He was in quest of a cupric woman or a clean old man.

Heaven and earth shall pass away but his false spirit shall not pass away.

He talked of writing from right to left when I told him Leonardo da Vinci did so in his notebooks and an instant after swore that, damn him, he would write like the Greeks and not like the Sheenies.

He called himself a patriot of the solar system.

He discovered the vanity of the world and exclaimed "The mockery of it!" [U 5/3 et passim and 1,7 below]

[[deleted user]]

Petra, I also didn't know that primrose is yellow. I thought the same as you did.

[Geoffreyjen]

One of the things that fascinates me about the autobiographical elements in Ulysses and Portrait of the Artist as A Young Man is that most people who write autobiography "gild the lilly", even when they try hard not to. Joyce doesn't, or not discernably so. Stephen Dedalus is not the most likeable of fellows, not in the way he is portrayed. He is complex, but tormented, does a certain amount of intellectual posturing (although less than Buck, or Haines), weak in many ways, but also sincere, mostly serious, well meaning, most of the time. Bloom, of course, is very different, although he, too, is not the most flattering portrait. It is very interesting, and speaks to the power, and humanity, of this writer.

[Petra]

Gill wrote: "Petra, don't you have primroses in BC?

There's also the Primrose League, may or may not be relevant:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primr...

I remember my grandmother was a member, much ..."

Gill, I looked them up to make sure I was picturing the right flower and we do have them but more in the red variety. That's probably where I got that idea from.

I like the pale yellow, 4-leafed variety. Very dainty.

[Petra]

Geoffrey wrote: "Stephen Dedalus is not the most likeable of fellows, not in the way he is portrayed. He is complex, but tormented, does a certain amount of intellectual posturing (although less than Buck, or Haines), weak in many ways, but also sincere, mostly serious, well meaning, most of the time. ..."

Joyce does give his characters realism. I can relate to Stephen. We all go through a time where we are at a crossroad and have to decide who we want to be or become in life. Stephen is at that point. He's lost and has to find a way.
He's alone, too, which will make things harder on him. His mother is gone, his father is yet to be mentioned, his friends are superficial, his job is dull and not what he wants it to be.
At this point in life, it kind of sucks to be him. It's all a torture, uncertainty and unknown.
But, like all of us, he'll find his way one day. The end results of the person he will become depends entirely on the choices he'll make. With no guidance it could go anyway and not all ways will lead to happiness and contentment.
I always find myself rooting for Stephen to find his way well. He's me way back when. How can I not root for him? :D



Cosmic wrote: "And his perception is off. He sees flat. ..."

That's true. Without my glasses, there's less depth because of things being blurry and out of focus.

[Petra]

Terri wrote: "Petra, I also didn't know that primrose is yellow. I thought the same as you did."

High five, Terri! :D

.....here's a question: if Buck's vest was a rosy color instead of yellow, does that make him less of a heretic? LOL!

[Geoffreyjen]

Petra wrote: "Terri wrote: "Petra, I also didn't know that primrose is yellow. I thought the same as you did."

High five, Terri! :D

.....here's a question: if Buck's vest was a rosy color instead of yellow, d..."

It might make him a pink (in opposition to a "red") :-)

[Geoffreyjen]

Moving on into the next chapter, I wondered why Joyce choose to situate Nestor as a historian - there is nothing, so far as I can see, in The Iliad to suggest such a reading. However, by going back through my copy of The Odyssey, I found the following lines that describe Nestor's retelling of the stories of the heroes returning from Troy : "You could listen to me all day for five years—for six years— and never arrive at the end of them; you would grow weary and leave before my tale could ever be finished." So it would seem that Nestor's role in The Odyssey is, indeed, as a teller of histories.

[Geoffreyjen]

Petra wrote: "We all go through a time where we are at a crossroad and have to decide who we want to be or become in life. Stephen is at that point. He's lost and has to find a way.."

Good point, Petra. This is also a description of Telemachus in The Odyssey - his story strikes exactly that chord. It is no wonder the Joyce found resonance there!

[Petra]

Geoffrey, re Episode 2, I don't recall too many details from The Odyssey in respects to relating them to Ulysses so I don't know how my comment will sync up with that.

In Episode 2, Mr. Deasy gives Stephen all sorts of advice....not much of which is helpful to him. Stephen is bored, disenchanted and disillusioned with his job; he knows it's not what he wants to do with life......and Mr. Deasy tells him to save (while paying him a wage that barely covers the basics) and asks him to do a favor. Not helpful!

Was Nestor as unhelpful to Telemachus in The Odyssey? I seem to recall that Telemachus came away having had a wonderful evening and felt that he'd gotten some support & encouragement. Stephen doesn't come away with that feeling after his meeting with Mr. Deasy; quite the opposite. If anything, Mr. Deasy added to the feeling of being used by others, not accepted for who he was and loneliness & isolation for Stephen.

[Petra]

[Geoffreyjen]

Petra wrote: "Geoffrey, re Episode 2, I don't recall too many details from The Odyssey in respects to relating them to Ulysses so I don't know how my comment will sync up with that.

In Episode 2, Mr. Deasy give..."

Yes, Nestor was more of a help to Telemachus than Mr. Deasy to Stephen, although he also was unable to give Telemachus any direct news of his father, rather he sent him on to meet Meneleus, the husband of Helen. And Meneleus tells him about meeting Proteus. Proteus was a god who had to be held in place as he changed form from one animal to another. If he was held in place in this way, he would eventually tell his secrets. Obviously Proteus struck more of a chord with Joyce than did Meneleus.

[Geoffreyjen]

Who is the cool artist, Petra? I love it, especially with the lightening bolts and the sun on its chain!

[Petra]

I'm glad you like it, Geoffrey.
I don't know the name of the artist. You can find this picture on Weirdoverse (as well as a really cool gif of Stephen walking the beach in Episode 3):
http://weirdoverse.com/tag/stephen-de...

[Gill]

I'll still be reading Telemachus for the next couple of days. I find Haines an interesting character. Not only does he symbolize the power and authority that England had over Ireland during many centuries, but as an individual he is a 'type' that I encountered often at University. He has the confidence/arrogance that money and a particular type of education gives you. He sees the position of Ireland as an accident of history, rather than in any way being caused by the English.

Although I can appreciate the many and various ways in which Joyce refers to/symbolizes the Catholic church, I am much more interested in the ways he refers to Ireland and Irish history. My favourite example is when it says
'Haines stopped to take out a smooth silver case in which twinkled a green stone.' Here Haines, the Englishman, is shown to own/control the green stone, green being the colour that symbolises Ireland.

I'm quite amused by the fact that Haines, the Englishman, is the one who is most keen on Gaelic and the old traditions.

[Petra]

I've read the first two episodes and am enjoying savoring the words more this time around.

We haven't ever talked about Haines, I think. It's so easy to slide past the characters I don't really like. :(
You know, the green stone caught my attention, too, but I didn't give it that much thought (just that Joyce was very detailed in the details he was mentioning). I think that's a really good example, Gill.
Haines does have a lot of arrogance and a self-assuredness that is overwhelming and distasteful. Maybe that does come from money and a posh education?
I can't say I know enough about the history or position of Ireland to comment on it's being an accident. I do know that the English were pretty forceful in both Ireland and Scotland over the years.

I did laugh when Haines was speaking Gaelic and the others were clueless on the language. The foreigner is more "authentic" than the natives. LOL!

[Pink]

I'm about to pick this up and get started, I'll only be reading the first chapter/ section of Telemachus and seeing how I get on. I've read the comments above briefly, but I'll read over them again once I'm finished and see if I know what you're all talking about or not! As this is my first time reading Ulysses I think I'm going to try just reading the text and seeing what I make of it, then read over some notes for each chapter. I don't want to get too bogged down with details and meanings this time around, as I'm likely to miss a lot anyway. Hopefully I can still take part in the discussion and have something to add....even if it's just a plea for help!

[Petra]

Pink, it's great to have you with us. Your plan is perfect. There's a lot to this story without taking the symbolism in. Just making it through each Episode is what the first time requires.

Ask questions, make comments, vent your frustrations (oh, yes, there will be some) but never give up. The best way to tackle this book is with a great group like ours. Having fun with this book is our main objective.

ETA: pre-reading the comments is probably a big help, too. In some of the episodes, it is an advantage to know what's going to happen before you read it. It helps. Don't worry about spoilers. This is a "one day in the life of" story with everyday happenings.