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July 2018 Group Read -- Killers of the Flower Moon, by David Grann
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I love Lost City of Z. My real-world book group read it in June, and then I got hooked on the Fawcett story, which led to two more books. Grann is a spectacular writer and researcher, with the ability to write these sorts of things in a way that appeals to everyone.
There is a scene in the documentary I linked to where someone in the tribe notes that they were being treated like children with the guardianships.
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Oh yes, I agree Chronicle III also made me extremely angry. I think since Chronicle II was so focused on Hale and his cronies I momentarily forgot that it was not just them willing to extort and murder to get the Osage's money. So Chronicle III brought me back to the reality at just how awfully the Osage people were treated by tons of people and not just Hale.
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And yes -- you're absolutely right, Shanequa, about Hale not being the only bad guy here. Sheesh!
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??
Nancy wrote: "Patty wrote: "J. Edgar Hoover"??"
She has a point. He wasn't exactly spotless.
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??"
She has a point. He wasn't exactly spotless."
I get that but just throwing out a name without saying why, well, it's a bit confusing. What about J. Edgar in Chronicle III?
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Sorry. I'm always afraid of saying too much and spoiling the book for others. Having just starting Chronicle III, and it being said parts of it had angered a couple of the readers, I just threw out Mr. Hoover's name. I'm still feeling out the rhythms of book discussion with this new book group of mine.
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:)
Nancy wrote: "Chronicle III now, and then afterwards, we'll wrap up the book as a whole. There may not be as much action per se in this part of the book, but a lot of interesting info comes up here that probably made me even more angry than the previous sections."I suspected where this section was going during earlier parts in the book. Grann did a nice job foreshadowing this part without giving anything away.
And it really shows not only how excellent Grann's research is, that he was able to dig up some of the information that he uncovered after it being unknown for almost a century, but it also shows that these conclusions could have been made during the initial investigation except no one seemed to be able to bring themselves to admit what was really going on.
Randy wrote: "it also shows that these conclusions could have been made during the initial investigation except no one seemed to be able to bring themselves to admit what was really going on. .."That's the most infuriating part.
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Actually, I didn't expect what followed. But I agree with you that had the investigation gone further more should have come out.
Nancy wrote: "Actually, I didn't expect what followed. But I agree with you that had the investigation gone further more should have come out."To me the thing that stood out at the end of part 2 was that Grann hadn't addressed the subject of the doctor-brothers who appeared to be behind the poisoning. Also there were obviously some other murders that hadn't been addressed, so I suspected we were going to get an update on what happened in those cases. But it was crushing to hear how deep it went and how many people were involved, and especially the apparent disinterest of everyone who was involved in what was called (if I remember correctly) "the Indian business." A systematic fleecing of people who were completely unable to protect themselves due to the complicity of the local and Federal Government. With no regard for human life. Unbelievable.
Tom wrote: "I'm not surprised that it happened. What surprises me is that I had never heard of it until now."Me, too, Tom! I live in North Texas, and lived in Oklahoma for a bit as a child. My mom lived *in the Osage area* as a child, and even she never heard a thing about it. And really that's saying a LOT since she's a big true crime reader so she would have certainly been interested.
I read this book a few weeks ago and thought it an exceptionally well researched account of the events related to this tragedy. The arrogance of some officials really never fails to horrify me; the book is one injustice after another and it's so sad to realize it's all true. Definitely a cautionary account.
I like well written true crime, but I will say the way this book is written isn't my preferred style. Not that it isn't very good; it is. But I prefer even true crime laid out more like a story (Columbine is an exceptional example and perfectly told). This style is a little dry to me.
Randy wrote: "it also shows that these conclusions could have been made during the initial investigation except no one seemed to be able to bring themselves to admit what was really going on. ..Tom wrote: "That's the most infuriating part."
Agreed!
I also would have liked to see the doctor-brothers punished. So many blasted people were involved it's like they would have had to arrest half the town. Disgusting.
Angel wrote: "Randy wrote: "it also shows that these conclusions could have been made during the initial investigation except no one seemed to be able to bring themselves to admit what was really going on. ..."I share your high opinion of Columbine, Angel, and am looking forward to Dave Cullen's next book, Soldiers First, to be published in 2019.
However, I don't think KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON could be presented in such a manner. Basically it's a multi-generational saga of betrayal and cover-up, and I think Grann did the right thing in presenting the history as pure history, and leaving the discovery of what was going on -- and why -- until it happened later, in real historical time.
If anyone is still reading the book, skip this graf, but KILLERS is arranged pretty much in chron order: (1) the betrayal; (2) the discovery of the betrayal; and (3) -- for lack of a better term, the 'federalizing' of the betrayal. To have told us everything we know now but before people learned it back then would have been to make "spoilers" carry all the significance. So there has to be some dryness even with the suspense, I think.
COLUMBINE is a much different situation calling for a different structure: the whole world knew the bare-bones of what had happened; two disaffected teens set out to execute most of their high school, accomplished a small part of that, and then killed themselves. Among Cullen's many great services to us: he (1) de-bunked the nutty follow-through stories the news media erroneously reported and then perpetuated (all that "Trench Coat Mafia" nonsense, for example) -- and (2) brought to light the extent of the damage done when crucial evidence was "disappeared" -- and of course, (3) shed light on the boys' backgrounds and socialization. A very different kind of story to tell! And of course, Cullen could employ a good deal of temporal back-and-forthing, knowing that the span of this book was a few years, not nearly a century as in KILLERS.
I think we are very fortunate today to have such quality NF at our fingertips, with authors free (within some limitations) to choose the style of presentation that serves the story best. When history is this well told, the "as based on" kind of historical novels seem much less interesting to me personally.
Excellent points & synopsis of COLUMBINE, Allen! I do understand what you're saying about the differences in the books and why they are arranged / written so differently. My comment above wasn't really meant to suggest KILLERS would be a better book if it were written like a story; it was really just a note about my personal true crime style preference. I thought KILLERS was exceptionally well-researched and I did give it 5 stars, which is really pretty impressive considering I did find it a bit dry in spots.
Generally speaking I only give books 5 stars if I think they are exceptionally written, or if I feel they have high entertainment value and therefore I can read them repeatedly. I work at home and listen to audiobooks a great deal of the time. There are some books that I would probably only give 3 or 4 stars based on writing & story quality, but if I find them entertaining enough to listen to over & over I pretty much think the author has earned the 5 stars.
I completely agree about the quality of NF books available today, and I'd much rather have the facts that speculation.
Angel wrote: "Excellent points & synopsis of COLUMBINE, Allen! I do understand what you're saying about the differences in the books and why they are arranged / written so differently. My comment above wasn't ..."
You are very kind, Angel. Thank you!
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To me the thing that stood out at the end of part 2 ..."
Exactly my point, Randy, re the doctor brothers. He makes it pretty clear that they're heavily involved but sort of skirts the issue on the whole in any sort of depth.
Maybe the doctors are a book in themselves.
Patty wrote: "Maybe the doctors are a book in themselves."Nancy wrote: "Randy wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Actually, I didn't expect what followed. But I agree with you that had the investigation gone further more should have come out."
To me the thing that stood out at the ..."
I reckon you might be right about the doctors. That would also open up a whole nuther can of worms about the hospital and medical practices!
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Frustrating, isn't it? How can we know what we don't know? Perhaps we should know more about Teapot Dome, which Grann mentions in passing. All I knew was that it was some sort of scandal in the Harding administration (early 1920s) over oil rights, and it helped drive Harding out of office. Perhaps re-examining it in the light of today's Federal follies would be useful.
I'm beginning to think I'd be much less depressed if those unknowns remained unknown. At least for awhile. Or maybe have some happy unknowns.
ALLEN wrote: "Frustrating, isn't it? How can we know what we don't know? Perhaps we should know more about Teapot Dome, which Grann mentions in passing. All I knew was that it was some sort of scandal in the Har..."Write to Grann and set him on the trail, Allen! That would be a good read.
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tsk tsk. Should have paid more attention in your American history class!! :)
Nancy wrote: "ALLEN wrote: "Frustrating, isn't it? How can we know what we don't know? Perhaps we should know more about Teapot Dome, which Grann mentions in passing. All I knew was that it was some sort of scan..."tsk tsk. Should have paid more attention in your American history class!! :)
I was a good student but didn't get much more than that. Harding was a newspaper publisher from Ohio, nominated by the GOP in a "smoke-filled room" situation before the age of modern primaries. This was the first federal election in which all women held the right to vote, and many observers think his paternal handsomeness helped get him elected. His record was pretty dismal, but it didn't keep the GOP from holding office for all of the 1920s.
Oh, and "silent Cal" Coolidge looked typically taciturn and VERY silly in full Amerindian feathered headdress. Per Grann, it seemed that the Osage and other tribes had been relegated to the role of cute and colorful, but their basic rights were severely neglected if not outright trampled on.
McAdoo? Was there someone named McAdoo mixed up in the Teapot Dome??
Where is Candace Millard when we need her?
Destiny of the Republic: A Tale of Madness, Medicine and the Murder of a President.
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I've already preordered his next book, The White Darkness.
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I have no idea, Allen. I love reading history but my in-depth area of knowledge isn't American politics of the early 20th century. As far as this book goes, though, I think Grann brought it in to set the Osage murders into the political context of corruption.
I did a little research and found this book about Teapot Dome. The GR listing looks promising:
The Teapot Dome Scandal: How Big Oil Bought the Harding White House and Tried to Steal the Country
by Laton McCartney
3.78 · Rating details · 478 Ratings · 102 Reviews
Mix hundreds of millions of dollars in petroleum reserves; rapacious oil barons and crooked politicians; under-the-table payoffs; murder, suicide, and blackmail; White House cronyism; and the excesses of the Jazz Age. The result: the granddaddy of all American political scandals, Teapot Dome.
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"One of the things that became apparent in researching and writing the book is the elusiveness of history... By the time I finished the book I realized that the greatest horrors of history may be not those we know but those we don’t know."
I think that sort of sums up my feelings about this book as a whole.
Another thing: this book is not your average true crime story. I normally don't even read in that genre unless I find something like this book that is worth my time and energy.
My question is this to all of you: how does this book compare to other true crime stories you've read?
One difference is that there is no lurid and gruesome images and descriptions to titillate the reader. This book has respect and dignity for the Osage and keeps your eye on the important facts of the crimes: the perpetrators.
I thought this as more of a history lesson rather than a true crime novel.
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Why is that, Linda?
For the simple fact that it was about the start of the FBI and the past of the Osaga people. I found it to be highly informative. When I think of true crime I see pages of crime scene photos and more in depth investigating than was done.
Well, both Vintage (USA) and Simon & Schuster UK (British) call KILLERS "History" and I agree. We went through some of this just recently at a discussion of Truman Capote's IN COLD BLOOD. I think it is possible for a "true crime" work to have a lot of "history" in it, just as it is possible for a "true crime" work to have fictive elements, too.
Not all true crime accounts have photos: Three of the biggest-selling: IN COLD BLOOD, MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD AND EVIL, and COLUMBINE, do not. Probably most true-crime accounts do, though. IIRC Vincent Bugliosi's Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Manson Murders did.
More recent histories may have photos, too. When I pick up a military history, it's photos or maps I look for first. (The new Haig's Enemy: Crown Prince Rupprecht and Germany's War on the Western Front, has photos and lots and lots of battlefront maps, which pleases me greatly.)
Written history goes back to Herodotus, if not further. "True crime" seems to be a marketing genre appended by publishing houses for books which don't quite fit the History or Current Events tags. Wikipedia describes "true crime" as a non-fiction literary and film genre in which the author examines an actual crime and details the actions of real people.
I'm not even sure that the term "true crime" existed when IN COLD BLOOD was published in book form, in 1966. Let me add, though, that I respect the term "True Crime" as a genre and have read some of it, most recently If I Can't Have You: Susan Powell, Her Mysterious Disappearance, and the Murder of Her Children by Gregg Olsen and Rebecca Morris.
I think it's the genius of Grann's book that he doesn't "cheat history" but does heighten the suspense of this often gruesome saga by not revealing conclusions any sooner than the investigators realized them -- also, since a major theme of KILLERS is ineffectual, biased or lax investigation, he reveals his own investigations. (Assuming you've read the whole book, you know his findings keep popping up, sometimes from the strangest leads, surprising even him.)
Another difference between History and True Crime is that history usually discusses recognized events from the past. In this case, though, the Osage "Reign of Terror" wasn't all that well known. As for True Crime, Dave Cullen's Columbine pulls against the grain somewhat in that it does discuss a very well-known, tragic event of recent history; but Cullen in essence has to "teach it to us" all over again because so many misconceptions about the shooters and the shootings crept into the media early on and were wrongly perpetuated.
I think so highly of KILLERS that I have recommended it to most of the readers I know, and sent a few copies out too.
I wonder if readers in general would consider The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks by Rebecca Skloot more history or more True Crime? History that Henrietta's own biography took place in the past; but also True Crime in that what Big Pharma did with her cells without compensating her relatives or descendants is a kind of crime of theft based largely on racism?
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True crime was alive and well for sure during the Victorian era (albeit maybe not called that) -- there were scores of books written about famous murders (not fictional, but fact), as well as broadsheet accounts that were circulated among the public.
In this book for me it's all about the blend of history and true crime reporting.
Linda wrote: "For the simple fact that it was about the start of the FBI and the past of the Osaga people. I found it to be highly informative. When I think of true crime I see pages of crime scene photos and mo..."I definitely can see it as being read as both, because this historic parts are more of a history lesson for sure, but I also felt there was just enough of a description into the investigation that it could have been a true crime, if only in a more faint sense.
When I worked at Borders and then Barnes and Noble primarily as a shelfer (shelved?), True Crime was primarily the lurid tales of criminals, their heinous crimes against humanity--mostly women, or the mob. In Cold Blood would be here. The books like the Grann book would be in Native American, or Non-Fiction Sociology/Anthropology, or American History.
Erik Larson's books are shelved in American History.
Henrietta Lacks is shelved in science.
Don't get me started on psychology and self-help.
Patty wrote: "The books like the Grann book would be in Native American, or Non-Fiction Sociology/Anthropology, or American History. Erik Larson's books are shelved in American History."
It's funny that I thought of both of those books when I read Nancy's question and then decided not to respond because I didn't consider crime to be the dominant theme of either of them even though both dealt heavily with murder and murderers. I would consider In Cold Blood an example of True Crime although Capote took a lot of liberties with the "True" part of the heading.
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You sure picked a winner of a book, Nancy!
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I've a feeling that not only is KILLERS a book we are glad to have read, but one that, in the future, people will ask us IF we've read (i.e., recognized classic).
ALLEN wrote: "I've a feeling that not only is KILLERS a book we are glad to have read, but one that, in the future, people will ask us IF we've read (i.e., recognized classic)."Completely agree with Allen, great pick Nancy!
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But now that I have reached near the end of chronicle 2 I appreciated the investigation with the road blocks and learning about Tom White and family. Even though I suspected who was behind the killings. I was still mind blown at the depth of this plan to get their money. And I liked how Grann tied it to Washington and technology at the time.
Because this is such a compelling read, I’ve picked up The Lost City of Z: A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon. So far I am hooked. Grann is definitely a writer whose works I will be reading.