July 2018 Group Read -- Killers of the Flower Moon, by David Grann

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Cindy Jones wrote: "This is not my usual choice for reading. After seeing it in the discussion board, I opted to get it. I am not disappointed in choosing it. Wow.. I can't even imagine having to be forced to relocate..."

There are a lot of things in this book I couldn't begin to imagine having to undergo. Tragedy is right.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Sandy wrote: "I read this book and it was a good read but to say I enjoyed it, no indeed. I would read a little and then I had to stop as I would be a mixture of angry, sad, and despair for the human race. The i..."

I definitely agree -- "lessons still to be learned today." And yes, it is a difficult book emotionally.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Moving on -- Chronicle Two. If you haven't read to the end of this section yet, and you don't want to know anything about what happens, it's your chance to bail here.

[ALLEN]

But . . . but . . . Chronicle Two is even better than Chronicle One!
Who would want to miss it?

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

ALLEN wrote: "But . . . but . . . Chronicle Two is even better than Chronicle One!
Who would want to miss it?"

:)

I'll be rereading it (Chronicle Two) today, but I agree.

[Shanequa]

I also agree that Chronicle Two is really good!

Reading Tom White come upon road block after road block when he was investigating the murders was so frustrating! I can't imagine what it must have felt like for him.

[ALLEN]

I agree. For any of these duly constituted guys, surely the mantra "Things aren't SUPPOSED to work this way" was often with them?

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I think Chronicle Two is actually the best part of this book, beginning with the fact that Grann puts what's happening in Oklahoma in the context of the era of corruption from Washington DC on down. You know, things like the Teapot Dome scandal might be memorable as only a question on an American history class exam, but it is important to show how corruption was just rampant at the time.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I will be sporadically here the next couple of days -- the spouse leaves for a week starting Sunday (again) and there are some things we need to take care of here before he goes. So I'll be in and out and then back for sure Sunday.

[ALLEN]

It would be silly of me to say "Happy Chores!" but I hope things work out well for you and your husband. See you in a few days!

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

ALLEN wrote: "It would be silly of me to say "Happy Chores!" but I hope things work out well for you and your husband. See you in a few days!"

"Happy" and "chores" don't really go together in a sentence, do they?

;)

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Okay -- husband sent off, and I have a quiet week ahead so back to the book for me. Was it just me or does anyone else get the feel that Tom White sort of combined Old West justice and modern crime solving here? I really liked this man. He seems to be one of the few incorruptible people here.

[PattyMacDotComma]

Nancy wrote: "Okay -- husband sent off, and I have a quiet week ahead so back to the book for me. Was it just me or does anyone else get the feel that Tom White sort of combined Old West justice and modern crime..."

I reckoned he’d have been played by John Wayne if they’d made a movie of the story back in the day.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

hah!

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

sometimes it seemed like we were back in the old west in this story.

[Georgia]

I read this book sometime ago. I feel it's a must for all as it informs us of the injustice perpetrated upon those who are unable to help themselves from corrupt, landgrabing persons..

[Corban]

Georgia wrote: "I read this book sometime ago. I feel it's a must for all as it informs us of the injustice perpetrated upon those who are unable to help themselves from corrupt, landgrabing persons.."

I completely agree.

[Corban]

Nancy wrote: "sometimes it seemed like we were back in the old west in this story."

Yes! That atmospheric sense of place was felt around the whole book for me. Crime scenes, offices, it was just described with great detail, not overdone, but we were right there!

[Tom]

Georgia wrote: "I read this book sometime ago. I feel it's a must for all as it informs us of the injustice perpetrated upon those who are unable to help themselves from corrupt, landgrabing persons.."

Thank goodness our officials aren't like that anymore (he says, tongue firmly in cheek).

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Tom wrote: "Georgia wrote: "I read this book sometime ago. I feel it's a must for all as it informs us of the injustice perpetrated upon those who are unable to help themselves from corrupt, landgrabing person..."

One thing I've learned over the course of my reading years, especially in nonfiction, is that plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Pick anywhere, anytime, and the same things have happened and will go on happening.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Corban wrote: "Nancy wrote: "sometimes it seemed like we were back in the old west in this story."

Yes! That atmospheric sense of place was felt around the whole book for me. Crime scenes, offices, it was just d..."

You should read his book about the Amazon -- you are completely surrounded by place in that one.

[Georgia]

Nancy wrote: "Tom wrote: "Georgia wrote: "I read this book sometime ago. I feel it's a must for all as it informs us of the injustice perpetrated upon those who are unable to help themselves from corrupt, landgr..."

Voila, vous avez raison!

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Georgia wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Tom wrote: "Georgia wrote: "I read this book sometime ago. I feel it's a must for all as it informs us of the injustice perpetrated upon those who are unable to help themselves from c..."

Triste, n'est-ce pas?

[Sonnet]

I simply could not believe how many people died so quickly...and how many people looked the other way. It's almost beyond belief that this could happen, and yet we don't hear about it in American history classes. It's heartbreaking, and I'm so glad Grann is remedying that with this book.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Sonnet wrote: "I simply could not believe how many people died so quickly...and how many people looked the other way. It's almost beyond belief that this could happen, and yet we don't hear about it in American h..."


There's a LOT people never learn in American history classes. Then again, most people only take American history because they have to. I like reading history on a smaller scale, like this book.

[Sonnet]

Nancy wrote: "Sonnet wrote: "I simply could not believe how many people died so quickly...and how many people looked the other way. It's almost beyond belief that this could happen, and yet we don't hear about i..."

Very true. It actually reminds me of another book I read last year...Murder in the Bayou: Who Killed the Women Known as the Jeff Davis 8? by Ethan Brown. I guess if murders can be covered up and ignored in modern times...it's not so hard to believe they could be concealed before we had this kind of technology.

[Corban]

Tom wrote: "Georgia wrote: "I read this book sometime ago. I feel it's a must for all as it informs us of the injustice perpetrated upon those who are unable to help themselves from corrupt, landgrabing person..."

:P

[Corban]

Nancy wrote: "Corban wrote: "Nancy wrote: "sometimes it seemed like we were back in the old west in this story."

Yes! That atmospheric sense of place was felt around the whole book for me. Crime scenes, offices..."

Oh yes I ended up reading it a little after "Killers of the Flower Moon" and I completely agree with you, Grann simply does an amazing job immersing you in his material.

[Patty]

Sadly, the people who should be reading books like this--those who believe in an alternative history of our country--do not read books like this.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

Nancy wrote: "Was it just me or does anyone else get the feel that Tom White sort of combined Old West justice and modern crime..."

In my mind while i was reading I imagined him played by Sam Elliott.

[ALLEN]

Patty wrote: "Sadly, the people who should be reading books like this--those who believe in an alternative history of our country--do not read books like this."

I'm old enough to remember when Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West was first published. The critics loved it -- the public, not so much. But eventually it caught on. Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI may have gotten off to a surer start -- hasn't it made the NYT bestseller list?

Anyway, "I don't like that kind of thing" -- well, nobody likes to have their property stolen and their families murdered, but squeamishness is not, to my way of thinking, reason enough to avoid this classic-in-the-making. It didn't hurt In Cold Blood fifty-two years ago, which was read by lots of people who didn't ordinarily "go in for this kind of thing." If something is this good, it's worth stepping out of one's comfort zone for the experience -- and the knowledge that comes with it. IMHO.

(End of Sermonette)

[PattyMacDotComma]

Considering how popular true crime films and series are, I’d like to think that maybe more of these systematic, planned crimes might come to light. It’s one thing to have a serial killer, but it’s quite another for a modern, American, community-wide campaign like this to get away with murder.

Grann’s book really did read like chapters from very old history, although the West is known for still clinging to its frontier independence!

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

ALLEN wrote: " Patty wrote: "Sadly, the people who should be reading books like this--those who believe in an alternative history of our country--do not read books like this."

I'm old enough to remember when [..."

I loved Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. Speaking of books everyone should read, that one should be on everyone's tbr pile, as well as King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild.

Re the "I don't like that sort of thing" - to be really honest, I'm not much of a true crime sort of person unless it's done well, like this book.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

PattyMacDotComma wrote: "Considering how popular true crime films and series are, I’d like to think that maybe more of these systematic, planned crimes might come to light. It’s one thing to have a serial killer, but it’s ..."

That's true, but on the other hand, in this case it seems like most of the town (and some of the people who were supposed to enforce the law) was in on a cover up. Can anyone think of a modern crime in the US where that's happened?

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Randy wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Was it just me or does anyone else get the feel that Tom White sort of combined Old West justice and modern crime..."

In my mind while i was reading I imagined him played by Sam Elli..."

Ed Harris -- that's the face in my head.

[ALLEN]

Something similar, though on a smaller scale, was portrayed in the "Daylight Noir" 1954 movie Bad Day at Black Rock. A man of a different ethnicity was killed by local toughs, and the townspeople were afraid to say anything.

[PattyMacDotComma]

Nancy wrote: "PattyMacDotComma wrote: "Considering how popular true crime films and series are, I’d like to think that maybe more of these systematic, planned crimes might come to light. It’s one thing to have a..."

Maybe lynchings or the shooting of black youths that are tolerated by towns would be a kind of modern crime, Nancy. But those are more like hate crimes rather than plots hatched for financial gain. Anything planned at the scale of the Osage Reign of Terror is more like some Mafia or gang assault.

[Tom]

Will Patton narrated the second act of the book and I thought he was well cast for the part of White although at 64 he would be a bit old for it, unlike Sam Elliott. 😉

[ALLEN]

Tom wrote: "Will Patton narrated the second act of the book and I thought he was well cast for the part of White although at 64 he would be a bit old for it, unlike Sam Elliott. 😉"

Sam Elliott is 73 (born August 9, 1944).

[Patty]

Since we are casting Tom, if he was alive, I choose Gary Cooper.

[ALLEN]

Me concur.

[Jamie]

This was a wonderfully written story that sheds light on a horrific time in our history that we should all know about. The fact that this even happened blows my mind and the twists and turns of it read like fiction. The book had an important narrative and was an enjoyable, and sobering, read.

[Tom]

Jamie wrote: "This was a wonderfully written story that sheds light on a horrific time in our history that we should all know about. The fact that this even happened blows my mind and the twists and turns of it ..."

I'm not surprised that it happened. What surprises me is that I had never heard of it until now.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

ALLEN wrote: "Me concur.
"

:)

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Jamie wrote: "This was a wonderfully written story that sheds light on a horrific time in our history that we should all know about. The fact that this even happened blows my mind and the twists and turns of it ..."

Sobering is a great word for it.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Tom wrote: "Jamie wrote: "This was a wonderfully written story that sheds light on a horrific time in our history that we should all know about. The fact that this even happened blows my mind and the twists an..."

"I had never heard of it..."

Neither had I. Did anyone do any further research on the topic?

[ALLEN]

Nancy wrote: "Tom wrote: "Jamie wrote: "This was a wonderfully written story that sheds light on a horrific time in our history that we should all know about. The fact that this even happened blows my mind and t..."

Pretty good article in Wikipedia (but spoilers abound):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osage_I...

The "Popular Culture" section toward the end shows that the theme had been treated many times before Grann's book was published.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I did find this a while back:

https://www.amazon.com/Osage-Tribal-M...

[ALLEN]

Nancy wrote: "I did find this a while back:

https://www.amazon.com/Osage-Tribal-M..."

Cool!

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

ALLEN wrote: "Nancy wrote: "I did find this a while back:

https://www.amazon.com/Osage-Tribal-M..."..."

It's an interesting film, to be sure.