Series: Tamír Triad by Lynn Flewelling ("The Bone Doll's Twin")

[Anna]

This is set to start on July 9th. I think most are coming over from the Tortall thread? Everyone is welcome, please hide spoilers and mark with book and chapter. Since there may be a significant amount of discussion about this vs. Tortall, please also mark if there are major spoilers for Tortall, in case someone hasn't read all of it yet.

The Bone Doll's Twin
Hidden Warrior
The Oracle's Queen

[Anna]

So who's in? Have you read all of Tortall? When can you start?

I have only read the Alanna quartet, but unless it's a majorly spoilery spoiler about something mindblowingly magnificent that I absolutely must experience for myself if I ever do continue, no need to avoid Tortall spoilers on my account. That may not be true for everyone though!

And I started this thread because I already started the book. Oops, sorry!

[Anna]

I wasn't aware this was going to be so dark! And already so many nods to the Nightrunner series. But the writing is as it was in Nightrunner, it feels slow but I get sucked right in and want to keep reading. I was only going to read one chapter, then just one more, etc. I don't know why I enjoy her writing so much, but I'm happy to finally be in this world again.

BDT chapters 1-6

(view spoiler)[ I was pretty disturbed to read about baby killing and bullying demons, I was not expecting that! Also the way in which Tobin is masked is much more creepy than I'd thought. I was expecting just a simple spell, but then so were the king's wizards! I guess it's been too long since I read Nightrunner, those weren't all unicorns and pink clouds. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I've read Nightrunner, and I don't think it matters which you read first. Like I said, I noticed some nods to Nightrunner in the beginning, but everything you need to know is explained. Tamir happens hundreds of years before Nightrunner, and the focus is very different. I obviously haven't finished this series yet, so it's possible there is something that might make you prefer one reading order to another.

Mainly there is one character from Nightrunner who gets a mention in the prologue and first chapter. And also a tiny detail in the first chapter would be familiar if you've read Nightrunner.

I think Travis has read both, maybe he can confirm?

[Anna]

I'm 100% sure it's fine, some people (like me) just might be super strict about always reading things in a certain order :D

[Anna]

I'm not loving this as much as Nightrunner yet, but I'm hoping it'll get better as the child protagonist grows up. That doesn't mean I don't like it, just that I don't blindly adore it like when I was reading Luck in the Shadows.

[Travis]

Nicki wrote: "Thanks, Anna! Unless Travis or someone has thoughts otherwise, then, it sounds like it'll be fine for me to just jump in with Tamir. :)"

I totally agree. I read Nightrunner first, but don't think it matters at all which goes first.

[Travis]

Anna wrote: "I'm not loving this as much as Nightrunner yet, but I'm hoping it'll get better as the child protagonist grows up. That doesn't mean I don't like it, just that I don't blindly adore it like when I ..."

This one had a bit of a slower burn for me than Nightrunner, but I thought it was all worth it by the end.

[Travis]

Anna wrote: "I wasn't aware this was going to be so dark! ...BDT chapters 1-6
"


(view spoiler)[Right! That was actually one of the surprising things for me going from Tamir first to Alanna second. The disguise is harsher and obviously requires a much larger sacrifice with much larger and longer lasting implications. (Interesting, though, that both series feature twin brother and sister relationships so centrally.) I really like how the first chapters introduce the two different magic systems and the tensions between them. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Travis wrote: "This one had a bit of a slower burn for me than Nightrunner, but I thought it was all worth it by the end."

I'm most definitely enjoying it, I was just surprised how different it feels. I'm past halfway already. This always happens to me with her books, I sit down meaning to read one chapter, and hours later I look up and wonder what happened.

This isn't really a spoiler if you know at all what this book is about, but (view spoiler)[ I think it's so interesting that I keep thinking of Tobin as a boy, because that's how everyone talks about him/her. I have to remind myself that she's a girl, so I guess that means the spell is working wonderfully. It's been a long time since I read Alanna, but there's obvious differences between their stories just from the fact that one knows she's a girl and the other doesn't. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Anna wrote: "This isn't really a spoiler if you know at all what this book is about"

(view spoiler)[That, for me, is the other really remarkable distinction between these and the Alanna books: Tobin doesn't know he's a girl and, in many ways, s/he's totally happy as a boy. It highlights the social construction of gender in what I found to be completely fascinating ways. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I'm almost done, but this should be safe to read after chapter 32.

(view spoiler)[Travis wrote: "Tobin doesn't know he's a girl and, in many ways, s/he's totally happy as a boy. It highlights the social construction of gender in what I found to be completely fascinating ways."

I was going to add something to my previous comment about this, but I was busy reading. But anyway, yes, I'm finding myself thinking of Tobin as a boy, and I think it's because of the cover image that I thought she would end up a woman fairly soon. I was expecting maybe a few chapters about the baby/toddler Tobin, and then a whole first book about her learning that she's a girl and so on. I'm so happy it's not that, it's been interesting to think about why some things are in the book.

For example, Tobin and Ki sharing a bed, is that there so that the reader can examine how they feel about it, depending on whether they think of Tobin as a boy or a girl? Or Tobin wandering about what's under Lhel's skirts?

I'm happy Tobin is being brought up as a warrior, although in Skala that's not necessarily so uncommon for girls, either, even during this king's rule. I wish Tobin had more female warrior role models, not just cook and Ki's sister.

I'm trying not to feel worried about how the change will be handled, surely Flewelling has put some thought into it and it will be smooth. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Travis, where did you get the books? I don't see them on ILL.

[Anna]

End of BDT.

(view spoiler)[ I'm so sad that Tobin never got to talk about things with either of his parents. It feels horrible that he identifies as a boy, has a boy's body, and is told he has to become a woman. That's so cruel. I expect we'll get to see Tobin start to deal with this in the next book. Maybe it'll get a bit more like Alanna, although there's still a huge difference with how they identify and what kind of body they have. I don't remember Alanna wanting to be a boy, just a knight? (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Allison wrote: "Travis, where did you get the books? I don't see them on ILL."

I know! So frustrating! I ended up purchasing them used from Amazon. I gave the first one away, but still have the second and third. If you work in Center City, I could get them to you...

[Travis]

Anna wrote: "End of BDT.

[spoilers removed]"

Yes, yes, and yes some more!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Travis wrote: "Allison wrote: "Travis, where did you get the books? I don't see them on ILL."

I know! So frustrating! I ended up purchasing them used from Amazon. I gave the first one away, but still have the se..."

Rauuugh!! Okay, I'll see if I want to take the hit to my owned book challenge for the first book haha!

[Anna]

HW, chapter 3.

(view spoiler)[ I'm probably being stupid, but Tobin's thoughts about not being into girls because he is a girl make me uncomfortable. I know Flewelling and this world have no problem with gay/bi characters, and even Tobin should know that, but I'm worried someone coming into this not knowing that will not see it that way. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Rambly end of HW thoughts.

(view spoiler)[ I wanted more of Tobin's thoughts after he found out the (partial) truth. It seemed to me that the most focus was on his feelings towards Ki and how his gender complicated that. Understandable, considering Ki seems pretty straight. But why are most of the other companions promiscuous, and then we have a pure innocent boy (who is also a girl) in love with his best friend. I would understand Tobin struggling with his sexuality after he found out (which is what happens in this book), but didn't it start already in the first book? I would have loved to see Tobin as a strong bi character, he doesn't need to sleep with everyone, but imagine the possibilities of having him in a relationship with someone(s), and then continuing those relationships after the change. I so wanted to see that. Now it seems like he had to wait until he's a woman.

I'm often bored if there's too many battle scenes, but fortunately there's also the Third Orëska storyline, which is much more interesting.

I will miss Lhel. Was the timeline intentionally wonky at the end, or is Brother really still around? I thought he and Lhel both got to rest? Or is he waiting until he can deal with Iya, too?

edit: OQ starts out strong with some of the things I was hoping to see in HW. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Anna wrote: "Rambly end of HW thoughts.
"

(view spoiler)[I agree about sexuality. It would have been great for Tobin to be bi. I think when he thought himself a boy he also considered himself to be gay and in the impossible position of being in love with a straight guy. Ki maybe also already had some romantic feelings for Tobin, though they conflicted with his erotic preference for women. It could be the confusion of both of their romantic feelings for the other that kept them chaste when all of the other characters were acting differently. It could also be the different circumstances in which they were raised, with the court conferring a different set of expectations on young men than the country household.

I really love Lhel as a character.

Is Flewelling writing novels any longer? Her social media presence has gone entirely inactive. I really hope she keeps writing because I would love more in this world. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I just finished OQ like three minutes ago. I don't know if I can gather my thoughts, but since I'm here already, I'm going to try.

(view spoiler)[ This was my least favorite of the three. Some things wrapped up a bit too easily, like the romance. I mean Ki is dying and Lhel asks if he'll love Tamir if she brings him back?! I was hoping they wouldn't end up together, although it always seemed like they would. There was that brief window after Ki first kissed her, when I was actually thinking it might not happen. In the end, I'm fine with them together, I just think it could have been done better.

My favorite parts were the founding of Rhiminee and the Aurenen guests, it made me think about Nightrunner. But if the best thing about a book is that it makes you remember another book fondly, then it's not pulling its weight.

I think after Tobin turned Tamir and most people accepted it, the rest was just standard fantasy. I still enjoyed it, 3.5 stars, rounded up to 4 for now. (hide spoiler)]

And yes, I would love to see more from Flewelling, and specifically in this world! I was thinking as I was reading, that what I still want to know more of is Aurenen, so a book/series set there at any point in time would be welcome. Actually, without going into Nightrunner spoilers, something set in the past that would tie up some of the questions from that series would be fabulous!

[Anna]

I gave my brain some time to sleep and here are my end of trilogy feels.

(view spoiler)[ I really like how Flewelling wrote Tobin from the start. I think I mentioned it after the very first chapters of book one, that he reads as a boy, even though I know he was born a girl. Too often it's just a girl hiding in a boy's clothes, but this has a whole another complicated, fantastic level to it. I feel like I as a reader had to go through the same process of accepting the change as Tobin did, despite knowing from the start. That's brilliant writing!

I also like how at the start of OQ people didn't immediately accept him as Tamir. Even if it's a fantasy world, people don't just accept unusual things without any doubts. And Tobin getting used to being Tamir was well done, there was enough shown to make it feel like he had to work at it before she was comfortable being a woman. I also like how Ki had to work through things, but I still think the romance part was too convenient.

Same thing with how Tamir finally became fully herself, by magical means, not by working through things herself. At least there was some of the work in the early part, and I understand that it was part of Brother that was still with her. But it did feel a tiny bit too easy fixing things with magic. Or am I just bitter because I still haven't fully accepted that Tobin is now Tamir, and the magic spell wasn't cast on me?

Also, I got to see fingerling dragons again! <3 (hide spoiler)]

re: end of HW

(view spoiler)[ Travis wrote: "It could be the confusion of both of their romantic feelings for the other that kept them chaste when all of the other characters were acting differently. It could also be the different circumstances in which they were raised, with the court conferring a different set of expectations on young men than the country household."

You're right, and I also keep forgetting than Tobin was younger than Ki, and I think most of the other boys were even older? (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Nicki wrote: "I'll try to join in on these, but can anyone with experience of both series comment on whether it's best to read Nightrunner before or after the Tamir Triad?"

I've never even heard of Nightrunner! The Tamir Triad was the first -- and so far only -- thing I've read by this author. Everything made sense to me and I never felt like anything was missing. So I can at least guarantee that you don't need to read that other one first :)

[HeyT]

Okay so I'm in BDT through Chapter 10 and (view spoiler)[omg so many feels for Tobin and hir mother and brother. Like the fact that before the remembrance of what happened in the tower they thought their mother loved them because they gave them the doll and then oop nope she didn't give you the doll she almost killed you. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

HeyT, (view spoiler)[ I find it very interesting that you're using gender neutral pronouns for Tobin! I can understand why, but I felt very strongly that he is a boy. And I agree about the mother. It was heartbreaking that she couldn't love Tobin. The poor child has no idea why his mother hates him and a ghost is tormenting him. (hide spoiler)]

[HeyT]

Okay I finished BDT and just (view spoiler)[ALL THE FEELS. Poor Tobin I definitely get the point that for the majority of the book he was he now especially after the reveal scene. I think now that he knows he's she it will be interesting to see how that all works out like if there's a noticeable disphoria etc. I'm assuming Ki got done in so I'm not looking forward to the grief over that in the next one but I know as soon as I log off I'm starting Hidden Warrior. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

HeyT wrote: "Okay I finished BDT and just [spoilers removed]"

Yes, yes, and yes.

[Anna]

Also all the yes!

[Michele]

HeyT wrote: "Okay I finished BDT and just ALL THE FEELS..."

Ha! I know just what you mean :)

[HeyT]

I just finished HW and (view spoiler)[idk it wasn't quite what I thought it would be. I mean we saw some angst about the transformation and I loved Ki's reaction to her brushing away her penis but like I thought maybe she'd struggle more than what was actually shown. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

HeyT, that's exactly how I felt, but I think the final book makes up for it a bit. I still wish there'd been more focus on that in HW.

[HeyT]

Okay so I read OQ in like one day lol (view spoiler)[I thought it was satisfying enough conclusion to the trilogy. I agree that Ki's acceptance of his love for Tamír was handled differently than I would have liked. I also found it a little too pat that magic brushed away the ghost penis and suddenly she was comfortable being a woman. I really want to read Nightrunner now though. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

HeyT, haha, I didn't read it quite as fast, but I know why you did! If you do continue on to Nightrunner, be prepared to read the first two together.

edit: I noticed you've already read at least the first three, but I'll leave that in case someone else wants to continue with Nightrunner.

[HeyT]

Yeah I don't remember too much of the specifics of nightrunner so I'd definitely read them all from the beginning. I forgot to mention my favorite part of OQ which was definitely (view spoiler)[ evil wizard pushed from a tower. I was so proud of Nalia for doing that! It was just so unexpected like of all his enemies she just happens to see the opportunity and takes it! (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

HeyT wrote: "Yeah I don't remember too much of the specifics of nightrunner so I'd definitely read them all from the beginning. I forgot to mention my favorite part of OQ which was definitely [spoilers removed]"

Mine too! That was amazing!

Seconding the suggestion that the first two Nightrunners need to be read as a single volume. Together, they are just fantastic.

[Gabi]

Just started reading BDT. I easily got into the narration style and the world. Now I'm curious if I remember why I stopped reading the trilogy during my first go. I'll read the above spoilers, when I reach the respective chapters.

Edit: into chapter 6 now. This is wonderfully creepy!

[Gabi]

I'm into chapter 10 of "The Oracle's Queen". So before I completely lose track of what happened in which book, I try to summarize my impressions so far.


First of all, I'm happy for this buddy read cause I don't think otherwise I would have re-read those novels. As it is, I'm enjoying the books so far. Flewelling's writing is easy to follow, which is always important for me when I read books in another language than my mother tongue. Her characters are believable, yet I don't get too attached to any of them. This way I can enjoy the story without "living in fear" of the death of anybody.


BDT: (view spoiler)[The first part was very intense. The killing of the boy, the madness of the mother, the haunting - while reading there was always this "when will it escalate?" feeling in the back of my mind. I really digged the grim atmosphere.

Later, when the story changed to the royal court I felt it still good to read, but somehow I was missing the dark stuff. With all those typical depictions of a medivial setting and the coming of age plot it lost a bit of it's uniqueness. (although I completely understand why this storyline had to be).

Funnily enough, I always thought of Tobin as "she". (hide spoiler)]


HW: (view spoiler)[Here I had the same feeling like Anna - I was waiting for a more intimate relationship between Tobin and Ki which then would have been on trial after her taking on her true form.

In this second book I liked the story line concerning the wizards and the one with Lhel better than the Tobin storyline. With the latter I was always impatiently waiting that some revelation would come.


Oh, yes, and I was quite relieved, when Una showed up again. The last sentence of part I was so portentous, that I thought something horrible did happen to her, which would have been sad, cause I liked her. (hide spoiler)]

[Bree]

Gah. Being in Australia SUCKS.
I got Bone Doll’s Twin and devoured it, but the other 2 aren’t available as Kindle books here.
And as for finding them in the local libraries, yeah. They aren’t there.
Sigh.

[Gabi]

Bree wrote: "Gah. Being in Australia SUCKS.
I got Bone Doll’s Twin and devoured it, but the other 2 aren’t available as Kindle books here.
And as for finding them in the local libraries, yeah. They aren’t there..."

Oh no :( - that's really a bummer. How about second-hand internet sites?

[Travis]

Tangent because this thread grew out of the Tamora Pierce buddy reads: I'm 200 pages into The Poppy War and getting very strong Alanna meets Kvothe meets grimdark vibes.

[Gabi]

OQ (middle of the book)
(view spoiler)[I'm getting too old for this! If this "well, he certainly doesn't love me" - "oh, she surely wants nothing of me" goes on any longer I throw the book out of the window! ;) - Can't they just sit down for a minute and TALK, and then go on with the story? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Gabi wrote: "Finished the Tamir Triad by Flewelling Lynn. I very much enjoyed the dark, grim atmosphere of the first book, but was a bit disappointed with the third, when the story became quite standard medieval fantasy."

Yes, I felt the same! It started out so strong, and then it gradually turned into every other fantasy trilogy. I still liked it, but it lost the edge of the first book.

(Gabi's post is from What else are you reading)

[Gabi]

Oh, sorry, Anna. I didn't mean to hassle you by copying my post. I'm only now on my PC, where I write longer texts (tablet, five left thumbs and a German autocorrection drives me completely crazy).

So here is my final impression on OQ:
(view spoiler)[As mentioned above, the "he loves me, he loves me not" scenario didn't appeal to me. I love erotic, I love sex, but I'm really too old for this backwards and forward stuff. Plus, I'm not so fond of reading about war tactics. And I missed some twists and turns. The third book was very linear in the storytelling with little to no surprise.

I liked the scenes with the wild witch and his instrument - and of course the death of Niryn (hope I remember the Name correctly), the wizard. Like HeyT said, this was a surprising twist.

That said, I still enjoyed reading the trilogy (otherwise I wouldn't have read those 1500 pages so quick, I'm not a fast reader), but it didn't live up to the extremely well done beginning.

Fun thing: I read the trilogy decades ago - and somehow I could have sworn that Tharin was killed in battle, and that Tamir and Ki did part, because they couldn't overcome their obstacles. Now I'm wondering if I'm confusing this with some other fantasy novel. (hide spoiler)]

Now I have to put the Nightrunner series on my TBR list.

[Anna]

You didn't do anything wrong Gabi! I was replying to your post in the other thread, and at the last minute decided to move my reply here instead. I added a link in case someone got confused because they couldn't see your post here.

[Michele]

Bree wrote: "...the other 2 aren’t available as Kindle books here."

Here are a few used copies available in Australia:

Hidden Warrior

Oracle's Queen

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Huh! I am reading BDT now and checking out this thread. Spoilers through Ch 14

(view spoiler)[ I am surprised at how differently I feel about this than y'all! I find the gender thing really offensive? Because it's more than just a social construct. This makes it sound like whatever body you're in, whatever pronoun you're given is the one you'll be comfortable with, and I really push against that feeling.

Not that Tobin couldn't be a boy, but doing a surgery and assigning a gender to a newborn with the intent of upending their worldview and their body without their input in a few years is grotesque to me.

I also don't understand the gendering in this world? Warrior Queens are the norm in Skala but girls play with dolls and boys play with swords and it's shameful if those get confused? What? And if they want Tobin to be a queen later, and we are using the "social construct" interpretation of gender, then wouldn't they want Tobin to learn girl society at least in part? Taking away someone's genitalia, life experiences, self-perception and throwing them into a gendered society they've never witnessed but must master feels extra cruel.

I also have a really hard time with the perception of mental illness so far. I HATE the "madwoman" tropes. She's not crazy. She is dead on that someone murdered her child, her brother is a killer, she has a demon of the baby that she lost living in her home, and only she knows any of the things she can do to control and protect her child, while no one believes her or cares about her opinion on the matter. Furthermore, the way she completely disregards Tobin feels false to me, and again oddly gendered. She seems to recognize that Tobin is not her "son" and ignores her daughter for the dead son. I mean, it sure as hell sounds pretty misogynist and transphobic to me. I know that's not exactly what's going on here, but it's hard for me not to draw parallels.

And I think Rhius is a complete ass. I know the author keeps trying to make him seem like a sympathetic and loving father, but making decisions about your wife's body, killing infants, lying to your wife and child...why couldn't they just present the boy and take the girl into hiding?

And it seems like no one's really fussed about the demon? They're killing wizards left and right but demons that attack royal people are just cool to hang out in their castles? I'm very confused. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Finished BDT

(view spoiler)[ I'm in the minority here, I think. I thought this was a dreadful way to handle being trans. The thing with gender is that the gender role is a social construct, but the gender identity is not. If I had a penis and went through a male puberty, I would still be a woman. "She" is a powerful word in my sense of self. If someone got to take away my body, the society I am used to participating in AND my gender? I'd probably kill myself. A lot of people who feel trapped DO kill themselves. How much more of a cageis it than to be happy with the gender you were literally assigned and then be told "psych! it was all a lie, fuck your feelings, you're a girl."

I can't get past that part of it, let alone all of the other things they did with gender and sexuality and race that I found pretty regressive, and no plot progression really? Like the one thing that happened was undone right at the end, so what was this book for if not just to kick Tobin (and us) til he (and we) breaks? (hide spoiler)]