Series: Machineries of Empire by Yoon Ha Lee ("Ninefox Gambit")

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "spoiler"

(view spoiler)[ah okay...I guess I thought that was a little thin, like I wanted more maybe. But I guess that's okay enough. My theory on Kujen is that there's two space ghost types: one is free-floating, and one is placed. Kujen gets to just move in wherever. Jedao has to get surgery and when his body dies, it takes a separate procedure to recover the ghost (assuming it survives). But, while Kujen can just go wherever, he's not actually anchored, he's just visiting. So he can get ousted where Jedao can only be forcibly removed. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

(view spoiler)[ That would explain how Kujen just walked right in after Jedao shot him. We do know that Kujen has given himself options Jedao doesn't have. But then why did Kujen stick with the same host for so long? I mean if he could just hop around. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ I think he cares for them. It's the closest he can get to human contact, to watch someone else grow old, to learn how they feel and feel with them. Also I think he's still careful that his deals, though often heavily weighed in his favor, are still options. He's not looking to mind rape folks, and, let's face it, inhuman beauty with a head for complex mathematics isn't just hanging around waiting for any 900 year old ghost to hop into. ;-) (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "I just finished chapter 18. I'm hesitant to continue, because I feel like it's starting to approach the conclusion...
I'm weirdly nervous about this, which I hadn't expected."


So I am loving RG, but also going really slowly... I kind of don't want to finish?

[Anna]

Allison, (view spoiler)[ I knew I should've been more clear. I meant he could've hopped around confusing people, using people, all kinds of tricks. Obviously Mahar (was that his name?) is his current home, so I'm not surprised he's stayed. (hide spoiler)]

Ariana, I know how you feel, but there's always the new short fiction collection to look forward to even after you finish!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ohhh I see! (view spoiler)[ I don't know that it mattered to him? Most people didn't know he was the hexarch, fewer knew what his current body looked like, and also ew, yucky Kel in their boring uniforms and their no sex allowed rules. So it didn't matter unless someone found an exotic that beat him up as no one was out trying to kill him really anyways, and to his knowledge, he couldn't be beat without one of three specific weapons no one had. He wasn't Shuos trying to infiltrate things. He was cool just making stuff, having stuff and living forever without pesky morals. (hide spoiler)]

I know, Ariana! If it hadn't been due today, I would likely have made it last longer.

[Anna]

But! (view spoiler)[ I'm sure there's been a time in his 900 years that it would've made things a lot easier to hop into someone's head, make them give orders that benefit him, and then have them executed to cover up. Like, I dunno, into a Kel communications officer and make them call off the infantry who were in a killing formation.

As I typed that I got a feeling I've read something about that in one of those links I've been posting. It's too hot and I feel too pukey to go searching now, but maybe I'll have to check that eventually. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'll try to do some research. It's possible he's totally done that. I just get the feeling it's not his MO. I just read Battle of Candle Arc though, and now I feel like some of my questions are answered.

[Anna]

I've only read Candle Arc once, I don't remember it very well. I guess that means I get to reread it soon!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Now I gotta go fan girl out on all the interviews/ blog posts. I don't have time for an obsession! I'm very busy! Who else is going to read these books if I'm watching fan vid of con panels!

[Anna]

I found it, funnily it was someone named Anna who asked the question :D

(view spoiler)[ It doesn't answer the ghost hopping, but it answers my previous question of why Kujen wouldn't (if he could) hop to someone and stop it.

Lee: "The problem for Kujen was that he didn't, in time, figure out what was going on." (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

You Annas are a ruthless, skeptical sort. haha

[Ariana]

RG, Ch. 13
(view spoiler)[Nooooo, not the mothlings!
But seriously, I'm so confused about what kind of evil evilness Kujen is up to.

One thing I think I missed: so I understand where the Compact and the Protectorate came from following the events of RS, but what about the swarm that Kujen has/had/gave to New Jedao/took away again? Was it explained where that one came from, or do we need to wait to find out? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Ariana, it’s explained later!

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "Ariana, it’s explained later!"

Thanks! It's hard to keep track of the mysteries I know we have to wait for (view spoiler)[like how there's another Jedao, what Kujen is up to, etc. (hide spoiler)] and which ones I maybe just missed by not paying close enough attention.

[Anna]

I'm pretty sure it was later than chapter 13, although I read it so fast and twice in a row, so it's hard to remember what came when. I'm almost sure I remember what part it was in though, and I know that's much later in the book. I could remember wrong, but since I have a vague idea about what you're asking, it had to be in there somewhere! :D

[Ariana]

So Anna, let us know if you decide to (view spoiler)[steal Hemiola's idea and make a music video of Kujen dancing. (hide spoiler)] (RG, Ch. 20, not really a spoiler)

[Anna]

lol, I totally would if I was more creative! :D

[Ariana]

I finally finished RG! Overall it was so so enjoyable. I think it was my least favorite of the three, which is not a big knock because I loved the first two so much. NG was so unique, and then RS had a very clear story arc (view spoiler)[(How could one person (two?) actually make a difference against a terrible system? Here's how!) (hide spoiler)] and then RG felt like it was just following all the moving pieces the first two set in motion. Which is fine, I still loved it.

However, I had a ton of questions about the plot, maybe you brilliant folks can help me out.
(view spoiler)[
1) Why was the main plot happening 9 years later, and where had Cheris been all that time? I'm pretty sure this was addressed and I just didn't quite get it. Stuck in the needle moth on her way to and from Tefos traveling slow because the moth drives weren't working outside of high calendar territory? Why wasn't this mentioned again? Moth drives not working is a BIG deal, but I feel like we didn't hear any more about that.

2) I am still super confused about why Kujen did what he did. I guess he hijacked a Protectorate swarm because the high calendar was threatened (and hence his immortality), using his rank as Hexarch and formation instinct. But wasn't it only after Kujen's rogue swarm that Inesser and Brezan decided to team up and agreed to get rid of the high calendar everywhere? What was Kujen's goal from the beginning? Destroy the Compact with one swarm + moth Jedao?

3) I think I understand Brezan/Cheris's plan: keep the high calendar at the center of the Protectorate, lure Kujen there, assassinate Jedao to spike the calendar which will make the special formations able to kill Kujen, then do the formations. But (a) since the assassination failed, why did the infantry formation still get Kujen? and (b) what was the point for Kujen of going there in the first place? He wanted to do his own spike with the threshold winnowers, but if it was high calendar terrain already, what's the point? And if it wasn't, we know Kujen wouldn't have gone there in the first place.
(hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Ariana wrote: "I think it was my least favorite of the three, which is not a big knock because I loved the first two so much."

My feelings exactly. Although I guess it's possible I'll like RG better on a later reread, but that's not going to happen very soon.

I'm a little fuzzy on some of the details, but here's what I think:

(view spoiler)[ 1. Cheris was just off doing her own thing, I think she was running around to try and find info about the location of Kujen's base? I'm not sure.

2. I think he felt like he was losing control, and had to do something about it. Once he realized that he'd given Jedao someone capable of complex math, he was pretty much foxed.

3. I think the "weapon" they would've used had the assassination worked would've been a different one. The infantry formation worked in normal calendar terrain, they just couldn't do it before, because Kujen was watching for it. So the big revelation was to use infantry instead, and it needed a cover story.

I can't remember what exactly they said about Kujen not being able to resist coming there. I'm a bit hazy on this, and a lot of details it seems. I really need to do that reread at some point, but I'll have to let some time pass! (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Here's my interpretation:

(view spoiler)[

1. Yeah, part of the slowness was that the mothdrives were malfunctioning, and they did bring it up a few times. But also Cheris was trying to find the actual physical weapon plans for defeating Kujen, she didn't know about the possible formations. So she was on a wild goose chase for guns.

2. I think originally Kujen had just planned to go into hiding. They mentioned that he's seen rebellions before. He just needs to stay out of the fray, let the armies smash against each other and then the order is restored. This time, however, he realized that the Compact and the Protectorate were not going to destroy each other at the correct pace for him to maintain enough of his calendar, and if it was possible for them to form a union, he'd be screwed, and not in a good way. So, he wanted to go reinforce the calendar, which remember needs belief of the locals. So reinforcing the high calendar and observing remembrances throughout the system are both needed to reestablish the regime. If he could remind everyone at the hub that the hexarchate high calendar was still prime, it could ripple through the Compact's territory more than if he took back some Compact territory.

3. The assassination needed to happen in the high calendar, which was not possible in the Compact's calendar, and they needed to be a credible threat to Kujen's army. Cheris was able to figure out the end goal and fix the ground troops (still a bit of a stretch IMO) even though the attempts on the ship itself weren't successful.

(hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Thanks! This is super helpful. A few more stray observations:

I reread NG and RS before diving into RG, and I'm so glad I did. For instance, (view spoiler)[very early on in NG, maybe even the second scene after the bit about Cheris and her infantry, we get to see Mikodez slipping Cheris's selection as Jedao's next anvhor past Kujen. And she's the one that takes him down! If only he been less distracted in that conversation and insisted on the other candidate... (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[I thought of moth Jedao as teenage Jedao, so it sort of made sense to me that he was all mopey and existential, and that he would make terrible decisions where sex is involved because he was horny. (I know rape is more than a terrible decision, but moth Jedao clearly didn't really understand the extent to which Dhanneth was unable to give consent until Kujen told him about the psych surgery at the end. Clearly we (and the adult Jedao) know he should have know better anyways.)
(hide spoiler)]

Like Allison, (view spoiler)[I was disappointed by the non-explanation for Hellspin Fortress. So we're left with "he did it to get put in the Black Cradle", which doesn't really hold water for me. I don't think you go from wanting to take down an immortal system to being willing to sacrifice 1,000,000 people as a means to an end. At the very least, wouldn't 50,000 people have been enough? I mean, even 1000 people is still a lot of murders. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

(view spoiler)[ I agree about teenage Jedao. I understand why it's called rape, but I don't really think it was. That wasn't Jedao Two's intent, he didn't know Dhanneth wasn't a willing participant. That's why I feel bad about the end scene were the two Jedaos meet, and Cheris/Jedao get so angry. Jedao Two presents it to them as "I raped someone", although it should be "Kujen tricked me into raping someone". There's a huge difference. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Yeah I agree that that scene was a little off.

But (view spoiler)[ He was explaining in that case why the crew would have left him. And Jedao Two wanted to be punished for not realizing it sooner, I think he felt tremendous guilt for stealing Dhanneth's life twice, basically, though both were inadvertent and Kujen's fault.

And Chedao never asked for clarification. She/he/they were so triggered they never stopped to remember that this other Jedao didn't have many memories and was tied to Kujen, who got Jedao 1 to give up his identity, broke his spirit at least twice, and offered Jedao bodies designed to remind Jedao of his dependency for brief periods of "freedom" where all he had to do was have sex with Kujen. Like, there's a lot of rape in there, and Jedao 1 was too traumatized to realize that Jedao 2 couldn't possibly have avoided Kujen's plots better than the person only 500 years younger than Kujen. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Oh I completely understand (view spoiler)[ why Cheris/Jedao reacted that way! I just feel bad that they never got to interact honestly, the rape confession almost felt like a plot device to make sure they wouldn't talk. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I do think the books could have been a little longer. I think I said that out loud and in this thread? That would have dealt with a lot of our lingering frustration, I think.

Dear Mr. Lee, you may approach me about future beta reader opportunities, I will promise not to be a yes-man or brutal. I have a reader resume ready for your perusal. Please give us moarbook. TYVMIA.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I was checking through the TBR challenges, which of course got me thinking about how idk what to do about who I'd marry/shag now that they're (view spoiler)[two people, kind of, and one thinks he's a minor even though he's not, and also he's gay so probably interested in none of me, but I digress (hide spoiler)] and THAT made me think (series spoiler) (view spoiler)[ if Cheris hadn't eaten Jedao's memory shards, what, if anything, do you think would have changed in Revenant Gun? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Maybe I'm too tired to grasp what you're really asking Allison, but (view spoiler)[ wouldn't Kujen just have picked up the shards, put Jedao back together, and used him as a sex toy for another couple of hundred years? (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Do you think any of it would have happened though? (view spoiler)[ would Cheris have gone crashhawk? Would a rebellion have started? Would Jedao have come back whole? Would he still have had the instinct to undo the hexarchate? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I think (view spoiler)[ Jedao would have been Jedao, except of course if Kujen missed a shard. I doubt Cheris would have done what she did if it was just her. But it's possible I'm just too meh today to speculate, I mean Cheris is pretty badass, so it's possible she'd have come up with something on her own. I believe it took the strengths of them both to overcome Kujen, though.

I do think it's likely Kujen would have made more mods to Jedao's personality, but other than that, yes, I think he's have been whole. A functioning Jedao, just not the same he was before the black cradle. But that was always the case, thanks to Kujen.

But yeah, I'm pessimistic today, so I say Cheris would have been killed off, and Jedao would have gone back to Kujen's "care". Then some hundreds of years would have passed, Kujen would have perfected the moth body, and they'd have lived happily ever after! (hide spoiler)]

[Megan]

Spoilers through the end of Revenant Gun!

(view spoiler)[I think there's literally nothing funnier than Lee throwing in yet another Jedao (THE KITTEN) into the universe. Over the past week, I've sometimes just remembered that and laughed. For a book with a lot of darkness, there were nice moments of humor. (I also laughed out loud over Hemiola considering whether to accompany the sobbing of the Rahal cadet with swelling emotional music.)

The transition from Raven Stratagem to Revenant Gun was jarring for me, because I wasn't prepared for teenage cadet Jedao and his level of emotional maturity (he was still thinking about Ruo!). I did think it was interesting--throughout the series, Lee did a lot of interesting work with the nature of identity and embodiment.

I feel like I should have realized the moths were bioships before this new Jedao's origins were confirmed. I don't know if I just missed it, or if that was purposeful, because I don't remember even wondering before whether the moths were sentient. But I really liked my experience of learning otherwise anyway: I was feeling judgmental of all the characters who didn't consider servitors worthy of respect, while I didn't suspect that the moths, right there the whole time, were sentient beings, too. I really like what Lee did with the servitors in the last book, especially, with Hemiola (making music vids! GOOD HOBBY) and the Revenant's servitors who side with Revenant.

Everything about Jedao and Dhanneth was really difficult to read. And Kujen's parting blow to Jedao. Damn.

I feel a little voyeuristic for wanting it, but like other people who've commented, I wanted to know what happened at Hellspin (like, right before It All Happens) from Jedao-as-Jedao's POV. I wanted to know what was in his mind, how he justified doing something that horrible just to guarantee himself the Black Cradle. Wasn't there like anything else a little less mass murder-y that he could have done? I suspect sociopathic Kujen probably wanted Jedao to go through that, to emotionally/idealistically break Jedao completely and have Jedao rely so completely on Kujen, but STILL. (I think this may be covered in one of the short stories, but I've only yet read the super adorable short flashfic about Cheris as a girl "teaching" servitors math.) (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I'm hoping one of the new stories in the upcoming collection might be about past Jedao and Hellspin, even though I personally don't feel like I need a better explanation.

[Anna]

Hexarchate Stories BR coming June 25th ->

[Anna]

Wait, that's less than two weeks from now! I've been thinking there's over a month to go. Wow, it's almost here!

I just read there *will* be an audiobook narrated by EWZ, but there are no details on Audible yet. I'll probably eye-read first anyway, and then do an audio reread right after :D

New Hexarchate stuff! <3

[Kaa]

It's so soon! I've already read a few of the stories that I think are going to be included, but I can't wait to see what's new.

[Anna]

Yup, I've also read all the previously published ones, but I'll reread all of them :) I'm most excited for the novella/novelette.

[Anna]

Who am I kidding, I'm excited for all of it! And I just realized this means I'll probably start making green onion pancakes and all kinds of flatbreads again! I also need to stock up on noodles.

[Kaa]

Oooh green onion pancakes! And picked cabbage!

[Anna]

Yes, all the cabbage! It's spring (err, summer I guess?) cabbage season, so excellent time for a reread XD

[Silvana]

Anna wrote: "Hexarchate Stories BR coming June 25th ->"

I just found out that this is coming! Hoping to get a copy soon.

[Anna]

Only a week and I should have it!

[Anna]

The audio edition comes out in December. A little bit sad, but then I'll have an excuse to do yet another full series reread if I feel like it!

https://www.recordedbooks.com/title-d...

[Ariana]

Have you all seen this? YHL made a game! Dying to rope someone into playing with me.
https://yhlee.itch.io/heretical-geese

Heretical Geese by Yoon Ha Lee & Ursula Whitcher is a two-page tabletop roleplaying game for a cunning Fox (or GM) and wary Geese (or players). Can the Geese achieve moral insights before being assimilated?

[Anna]

I looked at Heretical Geese, and it would probably be loads of fun to play with a group where everyone has read and loved YHL's stuff, but I can't imagine forcing my friends to try this with me :D

Also I just realized today that I have an eye doctor appointment on Tuesday, so I can't start eye-reading HexStories on release day :'( Not with those weirdo eye drops they put in. But I did buy a huge cabbage today, to make sure I'm prepared!

[Kaa]

Grr, I just realized that I am #2 rather than #1 on my library hold list like I thought. If they buy more than one copy I'll be fine, but otherwise I'll have to go dig up the republished stories elsewhere until it's my turn. Or just buy the book.

[Anna]

Anna wrote: "The audio edition comes out in December. A little bit sad, but then I'll have an excuse to do yet another full series reread if I feel like it!

https://www.recordedbooks.com/title-d..."

Now I'm confused. Storytel has the audiobook listed for a release on Tuesday. It could be a mistake, since the publisher has listed it for December, and Audible doesn't have it at all yet. This has happened before with Storytel, they list an ebook/audiobook in English or Finnish, and then on pub date it changes to another format and language. It's really annoying if it's something you're really looking forward to. Fortunately I have the ebook preordered, so I should have it no matter what Storytel does, but I'm interested to see what this audio listing turns into, since they only have YHL on audio.

In any case, it's great to see Hexarchate Stories on my Storytel shelf, even if it'll vanish on Tuesday!

[Anna]

I'm extra confused. I was able to preorder the audio, release date tomorrow, from Amazon, but I still can't see it on Audible, although I paid for it with my Audible credits. What the fox? I guess I'll find out tomorrow!

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "I'm extra confused. I was able to preorder the audio, release date tomorrow, from Amazon, but I still can't see it on Audible, although I paid for it with my Audible credits. What the fox? I guess ..."

I am also confused! I can't see any listing for it on audible (in the states).

ETA: Wait, yes I can! Popped up in the last few hours. Crossing my fingers.

[Anna]

I still can't see it on Audible.com, but I do see it in my Audible.com preorders. I'm going to eye-read first anyway, so no biggie if I don't get it yet. I would love to do what I've done with all Hexarchate books, which is to eye-read and then immediately reread on audio.

(I cancelled tomorrow's eye doc appointment, not for this but it is convenient :D )

I should go to sleep now so I can get up extra early to read! But I probably won't, because I'm me.

Soon!

[Anna]

Here's the link to the audiobook on Audible.com if someone wants it but can't find it with search. I was able to get to it through my preorders.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Hexarchate...

edit: And when I click that link, which is from the list of books I have preordered, it tells me to preorder it :S

edit2: I cancelled, preordered again, and now it looks like it should. Still can't find it with search tho.