Series: Machineries of Empire by Yoon Ha Lee ("Ninefox Gambit")

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Keep reading!

[Ariana]

Allison wrote: "Keep reading!"

Thanks! I read RS last year, but I guess I didn't pay close attention; I hardly remember anything. I think I was so excited for it I wolfed it down in one bite, but missed out on savoring the details. Suffice to say, I am enjoying my re-read

[Anna]

Ariana, I can't really answer that in a satisfactory way, but I think some of it may become clearer as you read Revenant Gun.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh, well if this is a reread for you... *spoilers for end of RS*

(view spoiler)[ I thought that it sounded like the plot to overthrow the hexarchate wasn't Jedao's initial idea. Like...maybe it was, but something happened at the Fortress. He didn't remember that he'd massacred people, and it broke him to learn he had. And then when Kujen put him back together, he made Jedao feel the need for atonement that maaaaybe didn't quite go the way Kujen intended. Or maybe it went exactly as he intended! Either way, I'm sort of wondering which of them is the dog, and which is the tail. (hide spoiler)]

[Lowell]

I've got a bit over 2 hours left in my audiobook of Revenant Gun about to start chapter 30), and I'm frustrated because I want to get done, but haven't had much listening time lately. I try not to listen to books that are this mature when my 4 year old is in the car with me, and since her summer pre-school/camp is near my work I'm dropping her off in the mornings. Which means I only get to listen about 20 minutes on the way home!

Frustrating.

[Ariana]

Finished re-reading RS. One thing I'm not really clear on is (view spoiler)[how enthrallment works. It's only supposed to work on your social inferiors, right? So it didn't work on Cheris because I guess she's higher socially than Tseya because of whatever disgrace she suffered? Did we even find out what that was after we get the info at the end that she's the Hexarch's daughter? I feel like it was in there but I haven't put it together. That's one thing that's hard about audiobooks: it's inconvenient to go back and re-read parts.

So social status-wise: Brezan, Cheris > Tseya > Jedao? Now, from a practical standpoint, isn't social status kind of subjective? I could think I'm cooler and more important and someone, and they could feel like they're more important than me. So if we're both Andan, who enthralls who? I guess in the Hexarchate there's a ground truth for social hierarchy?
(hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Ariana, (view spoiler)[ I always thought it was based on Kel rank, and other factions would have their own system of ranking, and then there's some sort of system between factions. And I don't remember if it's stated clearly, but my understanding is that Tseya having sex with Kujen when she was still a manform was the reason for the disgrace. Not because she was a manform, just that the affair wasn't a good decision. Maybe it wasn't that, but if not, then I don't think it was explained. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "Ariana, [spoilers removed]"

Thanks! But if (view spoiler)[enthrallment ability/vulnerability is based on Kel rank, then it should have worked on Cheris (Brevet General) before it worked on Jedao (higher seniority general), right? I think there was something about social status being different, and Jedao being vulnerable because he's an outcast for being a mass murderer, vs. Cheris who is not an outcast I guess?

Maybe my question, more concisely, is this: why did the Tseya/Brezan enthrallment plot fail? We know they thought they would be able to enthrall Jedao, but then they weren't able to because the individual was actually Cheris + Jedao's memories instead of Jedao in Cheris's body, and the fact that it fails makes Brezan realize it was Cheris all along. So I'm just trying to figure out why exactly it should have worked on Jedao but it didn't work on Cheris. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

(view spoiler)[ Jedao’s rank had been stripped at that point, so he was a social nobody. And you’re right that it’s based on social status, what I was trying to say is that for the Kel rank is equal to social status. What I don’t know is how Jedao’s Shuos standing would change things, but evidently they thought Tseya would be above him regardless. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Anna wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Gotcha! Thanks.

[Anna]

Since Allison picked Raven for the TBR challenge prompt "A book with a character you would marry, shag, or kill", here's my question:

Marry, shag, or kill? Pick any three characters from this universe.

I'd marry Mikodez. He wouldn't want to shag anyone anyway, and he is a darling. His diet and sleep schedule sound like they would fit well with mine.

I'd shag Jedao, but only because I don't want to kill him.

I'd kill Kujen, but I'd shag him first. Most likely that will result in him killing me instead, but I'll take that risk.

edit: Umm, hello from the future! I was extremely surprised to see this post! I would never try to kill Kujen! I would shag him forever and always, and kill Jedao, then ask Kujen to bring him back to life :D

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hmm!! I have to pick? What if the threat of all three makes the other two more interesting?

I'd marry Cheris but shag Jedao. General in the seat, assassin in the sheets.

I'd kill whoever would make Jedao or Cheris happiest, so maybe first I'd start with (view spoiler)[whoever's left of (hide spoiler)] Kel Command Composite. Or maybe I could ressurect and re-kill the Shuos Heptarch.

[Anna]

The beauty of Cheris/Jedao is that you get both! I should've picked Cheris (with Jedao added) to shag! Damn, I didn't think, I just used my top three favorite characters.

(Only Ninefox details, no spoilers.)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Updated, just in case. I can't waaaiittt to start RG to see what they do next.

I might just start tonight and finish Lucky Peach later.

[Anna]

In the Hexarchate you get to marry everyone who will have you!

But on second thought, I'll let you keep Cheris AND Jedao, if I can keep both Mikodez and Kujen alive! I mean how could I kill Kujen, those (view spoiler)[ standardized formats (hide spoiler)] are so sexy!

(The spoiler is for Revenant Gun, but it's not really a spoiler.)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Our dinner parties will be wonderful/awkward.

[Anna]

lol, we'll bring green onion pancakes, flatbread, and dessert.

[Ariana]

I think I'd

-marry Zehun (they seem like they're a good parent, so protective of Mikodez, and excellent organizational skills seem like a desirable quality in a life partner)

-shag Tseya (the Andan seem like they know what they're doing in that department)

- kill Kujen (remembrances, people!)

I can get dessert. I hear there's a new flaky pastry with alternating layers of jujube filling and lemon custard.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ariana wrote: "I think I'd

-marry Zehun (they seem like they're a good parent, so protective of Mikodez, and excellent organizational skills seem like a desirable quality in a life partner)

-shag Tseya (the An..."

XD

Good points on Zehun, too. They seem quite taken with their work, not sure there's much room there for companionship, but I like their stance on cats.

[Anna]

If Mikodez turned me down, Zehun would be my next choice of spouse. All those cats! And they'd probably make sure I got to sleep at a reasonable hour at least on some days.

[Ariana]

I kind of just want to hang out with Cheris. Do you think she'd watch soapy tv with me if I help do math for her calendar? Board games are out, since Jedao is in there, sort of.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ariana wrote: "I kind of just want to hang out with Cheris. Do you think she'd watch soapy tv with me if I help do math for her calendar? Board games are out, since Jedao is in there, sort of."

I'd love to see him try to cheat at things like Small World or Citadels or something haha! "Jedao. How did you get 4 Q's in Scrabble??"

You can watch K-dramas with Cheris, I'll lose gleefully to Jedao at games. But not too many K-dramas, Cheris and my adopted Servitor children can't think that's how all humans interact. It's just way too much giggling.

[Anna]

I fell into a deep rabbit fox hole of amazing Hexarchate stuff today. There are obviously spoilers for all kinds of things, so I'd maybe wait until you've finished Revenant Gun to peruse. The stories are all safe to read after Ninefox, but there may be spoilers in the comments (which are hidden by default) and elsewhere on the site.

Everything:
https://yhlee.dreamwidth.org/

Stories:
https://yhlee.dreamwidth.org/tag/mach...

I have so many things I'd have said if someone was here to listen as I read, but I'm not going to bore you guys with all that :D

[Ariana]

Yay! 2 more days until vacation and Revenant Gun. Looking forward to diving down the fox hole afterwards.

I had a little bit of a hard time starting something else after RS. I was worried the Hexarchate had ruined me for ALL OTHER BOOKS.
(I am finally getting into Spinning Silver, the (view spoiler)[child abuse and neglect and dead babies at the beginning, even as background, (hide spoiler)] were a little much for me, but once the plot picked up I started to like it more.)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Buddies, I started RG and I just want to shove my face in the book and not come out. It starts off so perfectly and ahmahgahilovethemsomuch. I got 3 chapters in.

(view spoiler)[Fuck Brezan, tho. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Ariana wrote: "I had a little bit of a hard time starting something else after RS. I was worried the Hexarchate had ruined me for ALL OTHER BOOKS."

I know what you mean, that's why I'm reading all this flashfic!

Allison, why? I can't remember what happened.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "Allison, why? I can't remember what happened. ."

I know what you mean, that's why I'm reading all..."

I just (view spoiler)[hate his face and his sarcasm. I mean, I'm glad he picked Team Cheris, obvs. But the rest of the time I want him to get a little beat down so he remembers he's tiny and needs to do good for Che-dao OR I WILL PERSONALLY ASSASSINATE HIM. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Haha, okay, I thought there was a specific thing I'd forgotten about.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "Haha, okay, I thought there was a specific thing I'd forgotten about."

I maaaybe haven't forgiven him for (RS spoiler) (view spoiler)[trying to kill Jedao. And then being a total wank to everyone about being a crashhawk. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I don't hate him, my feelings are on a scale of whatever to OK.

BTW, this is a great time to clear something up. I hope it isn't necessary, but when I say I love Mikodez, Kujen, etc. that obviously means that I enjoy reading about these fictional characters. I would not appreciate them irl, and I'd like to think that's pretty obvious, but just to be safe.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "I don't hate him, my feelings are on a scale of whatever to OK.

BTW, this is a great time to clear something up. I hope it isn't necessary, but when I say I love Mikodez, Kujen, etc. that obviousl..."

Too late, I've already reported you to the UN for being a potential mass-murderer. =P

No, I find Kujen and Mikodez fascinating, and if Jedao wasn't way more effed in the head than they are, or if he was less wry, I'd like them the most, as characters. However Jedao is, gladly (?) way torqued and also very witty, so I am happy with my selection in atrocity-causing maniacs.

[Anna]

But I like them all for different reasons! Mikodez was originally going to be just a mention or two, I'm so happy Lee decided to give him more pages. Kujen was also going to have a much diminished role, I would have missed both of them very much.

I'm never going to stop dreaming of that Jedao, Mikodez and Kujen hang out novella!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "But I like them all for different reasons! Mikodez was originally going to be just a mention or two, I'm so happy Lee decided to give him more pages. Kujen was also going to have a much diminished ..."

It would start "There was not enough blood, and too many sweets, for this to have been a gathering of three people."

[Lowell]

Finally had the chance to finish listening to RG tonight.

What a ride. Wow. Good stuff all around, and I am satisfied with the conclusion.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm on Ch 5 of RG I think, and I don't think it's fair that (view spoiler)[Kujen is making me feel compassion for him. What's he up to?? He made the remembrances! (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Also, kudos to Lee, I didn't see the initial twist coming, but it makes perfect sense.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Chapter 12 RG

(view spoiler)[ PEOPLE, THIS BOOK IS SO GOOD. I love the pacing and the flashbacks and the sudden shifts. I love having more Jedao time and watching both of him work this through. Two guns about to be aimed right at Kujen maybe? The part with Kugen's anchor was heartbreaking for both of them. I am SO CURIOUS WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!! (hide spoiler)]

[Lowell]

Yeah. I think Machineries of Empire, as a whole, is pretty awesome. I'm wondering what kind of wierd and wonderful follow-ups mr. Lee will bring us.

[Anna]

Lowell wrote: "I'm wondering what kind of wierd and wonderful follow-ups mr. Lee will bring us."

If you want to dive deep into his foxy mind, that information is out there!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "Lowell wrote: "I'm wondering what kind of wierd and wonderful follow-ups mr. Lee will bring us."

If you want to dive deep into his foxy mind, that information is out there!"

Trying to decide how far into this warren I want to go now. I love Jedao, but Extracurricular Activities was already basically canonical fan fic. I am not sure I have time to fall full into that trap.

[Anna]

The fic is one thing, but I meant that Lee has talked about his plans for upcoming Hexarchate things. The short fiction collection is happening, but he hasn't ruled out other things in the far future. Like a follow-up trilogy!

edit: I'm not sure I want that, because all good things should end.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

True and sad and true.

But if I may also provide a counterpoint...Jedao.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Why am I even at work?? I still have 50% of a book to read! Maybe I'll be sick tomorrow.

[Anna]

Most of the fic is Jedao btw, just saying :)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna wrote: "Most of the fic is Jedao btw, just saying :)"

I knowwww that's why it's so temptiiiiiinnnnnggg.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anna, I just read all your early RG thoughts and I want to reread already.

I might have to bump up these books. I am enjoying them so damn much.

[Anna]

I went back and read everyone's RG comments, and I realized that I can never read any of these books for the first time again! Waahh! I definitely need more novels/novellas in this world!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Okay I finally finished Revenant Gun! Spoilers for everything.

(view spoiler)[So, obviously, I love Jedao, let's get that right out of the way. I thought this was good and probably my favorite of the three books, but still had a few issues. However, I'll be contemplating it for a long time and will likely re-read the series, so that's a 5 for me.

I have a lot of questions. I think Kujen needed to hop nearish once the exotic effects started? But that's a guess. The whole thing was sort of a stretch and I wish it had been built better.

I think the whole series either was a tad scattered or a tad too condensed for the story it told. It spanned centuries and all of known space, planets, vacuum and multiple races of sentient beings, so it was incredibly ambitious to do it all in three books. I'd have liked things to have slowed down a little bit so that we could get the full nuance. That, or that several subplots (like all of Brezan, basically) weren't involved.

I liked the Dhanneth subplot, actually. I mean not like, it was awful and tragic, but I think I got it. Young-Jedao didn't have memories of Khiaz, or, it seems, any of his lovers. So he fell right into a trap based on sex again, only this time he was not only hurt but used to hurt someone else. A parting shot at how the hexarchate is built on subjugation and how even power with good intentions can weaponized. And then it serves as a good reason for Che-dao to peace TF out of the story, knowing that even her "better," "nobler" self who only killed a few thousand people instead of Che-dao's millions is a monster of a different flavor. Jedao cannot escape atrocity, and neither can he seem to die in peace. He will always be struggling to make something better, always caged, always haunted by the things he's done with his abilities.

But still. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED AT HELLSPIN!! We know Jedao supposedly had a mental break and killed everyone he worked so hard to protect. That doesn't track though. So who was messing with him? Why? How did Jedao come out "whole" from the Black Cradle every time and not crack then, either? He was left alone for centuries at a time, only trotted out as a whore for Kujen on occasion. How did that not feel like a Khiaz thing for him again and start the mental break down all over?

I did love the servitors. I want to know more about their enclaves. And what Young Jedao does with his ethics/suicide future. And if Hemiola ever finishes its videos. And how Mikodez is still okay after Istradez died, and what the hexarchate does now and...

Yeah. Ending was a good one, but I still have a shit ton of questions. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh, also, re Kujen end of series:

(view spoiler)[ I thought it was the pysch surgery. He cut out his empathy and somehow connected himself to the universe/time instead of humanity. If you see eternity like others see their computers, and have no human empathy left, why wouldn't you seek selfish immortality? What does it matter to you? Humanity is tiny. Moths are eternal.

Also, I wonder if he couldn't hop bodies because his brand of immortality was different than what he gave Jedao. Jedao's was permanent but meant he was stuck in one form. Kujen's was dependent on a host, but he could move at will. So, even if he'd fled to his body, he'd still be caught in the exotic effect, and still able to be removed, maybe? (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

I'm too lazy to quote Allison, but (view spoiler)[ my understanding from the end of Ninefox was that the mass killing was just Jedao's (and Kujen's) teensy little plan to make sure Jedao was given over to the black cradle. He needed to become immortal, he had to first become so useful that they couldn't simply execute him, and then commit a crime so horrendous that they'd have to.

Kujen had that body of his young self, which I thought was a moth body. Why would he make it if he couldn't use it? Of course it's possible he could use it, but would still need to rely on calendrical effects for some other reason.

I like your sex trap theory about Dhanneth, makes him seem less useless. (hide spoiler)]