Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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The Foundling
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The Foundling June 2018 Read: Spoilerland
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❇Critterbee wrote: "Maybe his recent head injury was affecting his thinking."good thinking!
I remember thinking he would likely have died from smoke before he could get out but I suspend my disbelief.
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It was reckless, but it could've been ok. Since he was in the cellar which is usually cold, wouldn't the smoke have all gone straight up the stairwell to the floors above - heat rising and all that? He might've been safe enough if he'd lain down on the floor and stayed below it? I think it comes down to how well the door was sealed. If the inside of the door had just smouldered wetly and let off a lot of smoke that was all trapped in the room with no way out... eeek!
Jenny wrote: "I must say I've always been sceptical of Gilly's high-tech cigar lighter."I've had a quick google to see what I can find and this site on the History of Fire (you have to scroll through all the ancient history stuff!) says: 'In the 18th century,lighters based on the flintlock pistols that used gunpowder were invented, but I don't think they were that widespread, and probably used more by the upper classes.' Which isn't much to go on and there's no picture.
This History of Lighters says the catalyst lighter was invented in 1823, which I think is too late for most Heyer books?
But it's not clear how big that thing is. When I check Wikipedia, it looks far too big to carry around in your pocket! And now I looks closer it has a marble base! No portable!
Great link and pic, Nick! And so interesting.I suppose Gilly, being a wealthy Duke, would have access to things not normally found even among the aristocracy, so I could believe that he would have some such contraption.
As I was reading this book, I realized that although I have reread parts of it many times, I cherry-pick what I read. I can't remember the last time I read the whole book, so the entire middle section with Liversedge I don't usually read and I didn't remember it. It is an entirely different book when you skip the middle part, with the very real threat to Gilly's life. Liversedge is much more amusing and less psychopathic when you skip it.From the description of the cellar he was held in, it had a vaulted ceiling as well as being large, so there was much less chance of smoke-inhalation, but it still would have been a threat.
Lastly, I love Gideon. In essence he was the big brother, as Gilly had been raised with him from Gilly's birth. He is everything that a big brother should be.
I agree about Gideon. The book wouldn't have been the same without him.
From the first thread;Rosina;A scene that sticks with me from The Foundling is the conversation between Gideon and Lord Lionel about the missing Duke - there is so much not said between them.
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I suppose Gilly, being a wealthy Duke, would have access to things not normally found even among the aristocracy, so I could believe that he would hav..."
It occurs to me that it would have been quite reasonable for a smoker like Gilly to have carried a tinderbox, which would have done just as well for the purposes of the story. I have come to suspect that GH had heard that such a thing existed and couldn't resist using it!
I've posted this before but GH's estates get requests all the time from writers wanted to use Heyer characters/write sequels & the most in demand character is Gideon. That scene where he strangles Liversedge is magnificent - up with GH's best writing!
I hadn't heard this before Carol. I gather no permission was given as I've never seen any fanfic of her books. Then again I'm not really into that so I may have missed it completely!!
I heard this at the GH conference I went to in 2014. Jen Kloesters told us in a Q&A session. She also said GH's estate is unlikely to give permission for any sequels but have said if they do it will be an established writer.
Kind of a snobbish attitude I think!!!
Teresa wrote: "Kind of a snobbish attitude I think!!!"I don't think so. Plagiarists made GH's life a misery during her lifetime. In fact, some readers believed Barbara Cartland was a pseudonym GH was using to do cheap knock offs of her own books.
I've heard that the Poirot books written by Sophie Hannah are awful. I'm glad that GH's heirs care more about preserving her memory than trying to squeeze out a few more dollars.
I suppose when you put it like that Carol it makes sense. I know the story of BC/GH. Awful for her. Yes I read a couple of reviews on the Sophie Hannah Poirot and there wasn't one positive one.
Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "I've posted this before but GH's estates get requests all the time from writers wanted to use Heyer characters/write sequels & the most in demand character is Gideon. That scene where he strangles ..."I had no idea, but I perfectly understand. Gideon is a gift of a character.
There's free GH fanfic out there but I don't think I want to read it.I've read some of the Jane Austen variations and even the one's I like can't compare to the originals.
There's nothing wrong with taking what you love about a character and then telling his story, but it does seem like a monetary/fame-seeking ploy if you use another author's original person and past.
I think it depends I loved Bridget Jones's Diary (which just used P&P as a jump off point) & The Secret Diary of Lizzie Bennet which had a fresh new look. I've never read any GH fan fiction (although I'm looking forward to reading Elliot's!) what I have read are Regency novels that are straight up plagiarism. They always either lack & any genuine life & vitality or are too raunchy & speak like 21st characters. I wonder how I would feel about a 20th/21st century version of some of Heyers works?
Long before I learned about Heyer's trouble with plagiarists, I borrowed a regency romance by another author whose name I no longer remember from a local library. It was essentially one of the books featuring the Duke of Avon, with the name changed of course and not nearly as good. Even then, I could tell it clearly wasn't a case of finding a book that just coincidentally featured a duke and a beautiful young girl, and I felt cheated. If I'd actually written the original, I would have been furious. When I found out this sort of thing had been a problem for Heyer, I wished I could remember the author's name, just to know if she was one of the known plagiarists.
Barbara Cartland was the most notorious of GH’s plagiarists.
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However, we digress!
Jenny wrote: "I once picked up a historical romance on holiday and was astonished to find that it contained the scene between Vidal and Avon where Avon is telling his son he's got to leave the country practicall..."You're right, Jenny, we are getting a bit off of the topic!
About Gilly, I feel certain that there is no other Heyer hero like him - and I really enjoy that she had such a range of heroes and heroines in her stories. Gilly was kind and humble, with a great sense of humour. He was so cossetted and sheltered that he could have turned out to be a helpless, indecisive man, but he had enough strength of character to assert himself, but still remain respectful of his family and of other people.
❇Critterbee wrote: "About Gilly, I feel certain that there is no other Heyer hero like him - and I really enjoy that she had such a range of heroes and heroines in her stories."GH put herself down & said she only had 2 types of heroes, but I think she had at least 4.
She had blonde resourceful giant (The Unknown Ajax & The Tollgate) & the sweet hero (The Black Moth, The Quiet Gentleman, An Infamous Army, Cotillion & Gilly) & like was said upthread, Gideon was put in as a contrast like (Cotillion spoiler) (view spoiler)
Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "GH put herself down & said she only had 2 types of heroes, but I think she had at least 4...."If GH is dividing them into only 2 categories, they must be very broad categories.
I started a thread to discuss Heyer's hero types in the Heyer in General Folder:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
The thread may contain spoilers of other books.
❇Critterbee wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I once picked up a historical romance on holiday and was astonished to find that it contained the scene between Vidal and Avon where Avon is telling his son he's got to leave the coun..."He could easily have become a vague man who let everyone else make his decisions for him. He was very, very lucky in his bride! What if he'd married a managing type?
Karlyne wrote: "❇Critterbee wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I once picked up a historical romance on holiday and was astonished to find that it contained the scene between Vidal and Avon where Avon is telling his son he's g..."Good point! She could have ride roughshod over him, that would be a shame.
❇Critterbee wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I once picked up a historical romance on holiday and was astonished to find that it contained the scene between Vidal and Avon where Avon is telling his son he's got to leave the coun..."I love that with Gilly, she basically turns the aristocratic leading man she created on its head, and makes him (Gideon) more of a wingman to Gilly, standing back and cheering him on!
Ok, so I've just finished and I am finally reading your comments.Overall I enjoyed the book, it's a solid 3.5 stars for me. My favorite remains Cotillion though, which I believe is more centered and less scattered (so I may have to round up that to 4/5).
I believe Heyer has a tendency to outstretch the endings a bit, and in this book there are quite a few instances of characters recounting to others things the reader already knows, that maybe could've been cut.
Gilly burning down the door seemed a bit risky to me too, but well, the author had to find a way to get him out of there, I guess.
I was disappointed we didn't get a proper resolution to the relationship between Gideon and his father. I was fascinated by that, Lionel devoting all his tender (and, well, overbearing) affection to his nephew, while dealing with his son in a harsh and indifferent way (in the first chapter it is said that when Gideon was wounded at Waterloo Lionel wasn't much moved, while he was always zealous at the least sign of sickness in Gilly), never being able to express his love for him (in the book it is stated many times that father and son are very fond of each other, and L. is proud of his son).
Well, I would have thought this was an interesting dynamic to explore, but maybe that would've taken the story too far from its centre.
Like I said in another thread, the romance here is virtually non-existant, and not much can be said about it. Harriet herself is not a very memorable heroine, although she's nice and sweet. But this isn't a "romance" but rather a "coming-of-age" story, I guess. I would have liked Heyer to play and dare more, obviously always in a humorous way, with the "temptations" Belinda could stir even in a honest man as our hero Gilly, but maybe another author was needed for that.
I did find it amusing at the end, when they bring Belinda to Mr Mudgley, that the shy and modest Harriet can't help but admire the "fine figure" of him! This is just a quick comment in passing, no more than a few lines, but I thought it was a bit of a tounge-in-cheek reversal of what happened throughout all the book, where every man was smitten by Belinda. It turns out that girls have eyes too! Now I can't help but imagine Jasper and Belinda as a super-hot couple and every one, in the back of their mind, is a bit jealous of them!
I loved all the Duke's staff, so maddeningly and endearingly "in love" with their precious master (I know they were meant to be quite oppressive, but they were so cute nevertheless!), the "villains" were ridiculously amusing, in a classic "screwball comedy" way where no one is really bad.
My favorite is Uncle Lionel, such a "complex" (well, in the sense of how "complex" these characters can be, these books are, after all, meant to be light and entertaining).
I very much agree with PoohBear that said (post 37) "If you dig deeper, Belinda is an example of the darker side of Regency life": in fact, there are various hints of a much grimmer underworld that I have not often found in Heyer's books (but I haven't read many of her books yet). Indeed, there are a few bits in which she's more explicit than ever. So, Belinda is funny and provides some sort of comic relief, but there's also some sort of dark shadow over her story that I could never entirely shake off.
(edited to fix some typos)
❇Critterbee wrote: "So let me just say that I am completely in love with Gideon."The way Gideon was the only one calling him "Adolphus" and not "Gilly" was another (clever) way to show that he was the only one willing to treat him like an adult (I guess "Gilly" is an affectionate diminutive, am I right? Although Gilly himself didn't seem to mind this nickname, I guess you would rather use it for a child?)
Moloch wrote: "The way Gideon was the only one calling him "Adolphus" and not "Gilly" was another (clever) way to show that he wa..."
That is a very good point! Only male anyway - does Harriet call him Gilly?
Moloch wrote: "Ok, so I've just finished and I am finally reading your comments.Overall I enjoyed the book, it's a solid 3.5 stars for me. My favorite remains Cotillion though, which I believe is more centered ..."
I really enjoyed reading your comments, although this book is more of a favorite for me - I love the screwball, coming-of-age comedy of it, I guess, but I love Cotillion too!
Out of all of Gilly's names - Adolphus Gillespie Vernon Ware - I really only like Vernon! Gilly just reminds me of a fish.
Moloch, Cotillion is one of my favorites, too. it's in my top 5 for sure.
Susan in NC wrote: "Moloch wrote: "Ok, so I've just finished and I am finally reading your comments.Overall I enjoyed the book, it's a solid 3.5 stars for me. My favorite remains Cotillion though, which I believe is..."
Thank you, Susan!
We have already said that in TF the romance is not particularly important to the story, but I was thinking this about it; it's not impossible to think that Gilly and Harriet would have been happy together and satisfied in their marriage even if he never had all his adventures, after all they were friends from youth and fond of each other.
BUT maybe he would always have had in the back of his mind the disturbing thought "what if I didn't follow the path set for me and found 'true love' and another woman?". Or maybe he would have the need to "prove" something to himself after the marriage, and embark in some relationship.
So in a way it's good that these adventures allowed them to know each other better.
Very true - I agree wholeheartedly.
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Jenny wrote: "I think it would be interesting to compare TF with the other two books that have the same basic plot - Sprig Muslin and Charity Girl. Can we do that without putting in spoiler tags for those two bo..."No sorry. We have asked in the rules for people to use spoiler tags when discussing other Heyer books. We have this thread on how to do spoiler tags https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... or you can just click on (some htmlis ok) when you are in the comment box. :)
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Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Bridget Jones’s Diary (other topics)The Secret Diary of Lizzie Bennet (other topics)
Haha, Critterbee! It probably really was; there's nothing like a blinding headache for affecting the brain cells!