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Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI
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Group Read - Killers Flower Moon > Group Read - Killers of the Flower Moon ch 22-26 end Spoilers Welcome

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message 1: by Ann (last edited May 25, 2018 11:06PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ann (annrumsey) | 15088 comments Chronicle 3 Chapters 22-26 to the end discussion Spoilers Welcome
If the first to post please provide a brief summary to guide the discussion.
What did you think of this final segment and the book?


message 2: by Ann (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ann (annrumsey) | 15088 comments Chronicle 3 is a post script of the author's research and contact with descendants of some of the Osage victims. The revelations that the murders were committed both earlier and later than identified by law enforcement and that several serious suspects were never identified, charged or brought to trial was a travesty.
The sheer unknown numbers of murders, the shoddy investigations and devastating impact are hard to comprehend.


message 3: by Ann (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ann (annrumsey) | 15088 comments I will start my comments and summary here first. I finished the book today but started it a couple of months ago so this part is more fresh in my mind.
I can't think of enough strong adjectives to describe the horror I felt reading this book. The depth and breadth of the conspiracies is mind boggling.


message 4: by Ann (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ann (annrumsey) | 15088 comments Some of the statistics regarding law enforcement clearance rates and of the low accountability of local enforcement were shocking - for more than a few places, the odds of being caught were slim to none resulting in areas of the US where you could murder and almost be guaranteed to get away with it. Crazy, sad and heartbreaking that this was one of those places.


message 5: by NancyJ (last edited Jun 16, 2018 09:13PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

NancyJ (nancyjjj) As shocked as I was by part 1, it was more shocking to learn that the actual death count might have been in the hundreds. There was no way to know because the people who should be questioning cause of death, were not. Law enforcement, doctors, funeral homes, and detectives were either unwilling to investigate or just didn't have the skills. The doctors (and perhaps the funeral homes) were involved in covering up the murders by poisoning. The doctors likely helped to commit some of those murders themselves, by supplying or administering poison. I don't think they were even arrested, were they?

The FBI was happy to get a big win, but they stopped with one set of murders, and didn't look more closely at others. There were people in the government that had to know something was wrong, but they didn't care or were too scared to do anything about it. The whole system was full of institutionalized racism. They didn't view the people as people.

This is a shameful part of our nation's history.


message 6: by Ann (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ann (annrumsey) | 15088 comments NancyJ: there were so many people criminally involved I think they could have arrested the entire town, and like you, I think not even the people injecting Mollie with poison were charged. The number of deaths is horrifying, the lack of justice for so many is unbelievable.
NancyJ wrote: "As shocked as I was by part 1, it was more shocking to learn that the actual death count might have been in the hundreds......
Law enforcement, doctors, funeral homes, and detectives were either unwilling to investigate or just didn't have the skills. The doctors (and perhaps the funeral homes) were involved in covering up the murders by poisoning. The doctors likely helped to commit some of those murders themselves, by supplying or administering poison. I don't think they were even arrested, were they?

.."



Sandi (sandin954) | 1238 comments NancyJ wrote: "As shocked as I was by part 1, it was more shocking to learn that the actual death count might have been in the hundreds.."

This was the worst part. While Hale and his bunch were somewhat punished many more were never brought to justice. I can't believe that the two Doctors who were brothers were never arrested. The entire guardianship system was just a license to steal and yet that was not enough for some.


James Emery | 14 comments This section was very well done. I was worried that this would be the look-at-what-an-excellent-investigator-journalist-I-am coda, but Grann kept the focus on the victims and their families. He was able to frame the murders in the grander scale and show the extent of the horror.

The dehumanization and, like NancyJ said, the institutionalized racism cannot be overexpressed. An entire population of whites were their exploiting and murdering the Osage with little more moral qualms than if they were animals--and maybe less. But it's an important point to make that as bad as Hale was, it didn't end with him. He was a symptom of the bigger issue, and one that still remains today.

I don't want to divert the discussion into politics, but after reading this novel at the same time as the immigration issue and the housing of minors is in headlines is very apropos. I can't help but think what would the national reaction and subsequent reaction be if those kids were white and middle class?


message 9: by Ann (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ann (annrumsey) | 15088 comments James: I wasn't sure what to expect with this last section either and was also struck by how topical this situation is today (sadly) The additional background information and unbelievable depth of the corruption and number of people who went unpunished was hard to stomach.
James wrote: "This section was very well done. I was worried that this would be the look-at-what-an-excellent-investigator-journalist-I-am coda, but Grann kept the focus on the victims and their families. He was..."


Lynne in PA/Lineepinee (lineepineeaolcom) | 68 comments Shameful. Greed personified.


message 11: by Ann (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ann (annrumsey) | 15088 comments Lynne: totally shameful. It still makes my blood boil at the cold-hearted actions.
Lynne in PA/Lineepinee wrote: "Shameful. Greed personified."


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