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The First Five Pages: A Writer's Guide To Staying Out of the Rejection Pile
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Archives Folder - No Posting :) > Lukeman. The First Five Pages - Starts 10th June 2018

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message 1: by Graeme (last edited May 30, 2018 11:46PM) (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Hi All, due to the limited availability of "Story," by Robert McKee, we are running a second book concurrently, starting on the 10th of June.

Welcome to The First Five Pages A Writer's Guide To Staying Out of the Rejection Pile by Noah Lukeman by Noah Lukeman

AMAZON: https://www.amazon.com/First-Five-Pag...

Time to work together to ace our first five pages and keep readers reading.

Please join in below.


message 2: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan I'm in.


message 3: by Alex (new)

Alex (asato) Ordered my copy through interlibrary loan.


message 4: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Cool.


message 5: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Hi all, be prepared to bring your work to the process, it's the best way to get value from the group read by sharpening your own work and your own technique.


message 6: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 11755 comments Graeme wrote: "Hi all, be prepared to bring your work to the process, it's the best way to get value from the group read by sharpening your own work and your own technique."

By "bring your wrk" do you mean "current WIP" or existing work?


message 7: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Anything. The idea is to give and receive value. If it helps us all learn - all the better.


P.K. Davies | 358 comments I am half way through The First Five Pages.It not only deals with the basics, like physical layout, that will put off agents or publishers (and therefore other readers) but it goes on to the nitty gritty of good and bad writing. It even dares to analyse style and rythmn. I'm sure everyone can get a lot out of it and I hope it will generate good discussion relevant to our own work.


message 9: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 11755 comments Graeme, this is your project, so perhaps you had better outline what you actually want the rest of us to actually do, especially wrt to "own work".


message 10: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Hi all, I've started the book, and I'll be back in a couple of hours to kick this along.


message 11: by Graeme (last edited Jun 09, 2018 06:37PM) (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan I love it when I write something on here and the real world intervenes... I'm back now...

My approach is to really tear things apart and examine the nitty gritty details. When composing a story, I like to think big, when executing a project, I like to cover off all the details and I'm a 99% perfectionist. I.e. I will draw a line, a cut off point so that I can move forward and not suffer analysis paralysis.

Hi Ian, wrt "own work," I'm pretty fracking open on the idea. let's delve into the guts of each others work and seize the bloody heart of the material and give it a good shake.

The objective is to share and learn, I can certainly improve, and I'm hoping to learn from everyone here.


message 12: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Kick Off!

Lukeman starts with presentation, and is explicitly focused on avoiding a publisher's "Reject Slushpile of To Be Forgotten Manuscripts."

For self-publishers, this is equivalent of avoiding rejection by the reader when they read the "sample," provided by our typical sales platforms (Amazon, Apple, B&N, Kobo, et al).

So I'm looking at Lukeman's advice through the lens of a self-published author, where the reader substitutes for a publisher/editor.

[1] Presentation comes down elements such as cover, front matter, dedication, prologues, opening chapter which will be the elements a reader is likely to come into contact with at the point of sale.

[2] I'm also keen to look at his advice re contacting agents, editors and publishers.

I have a single experience with putting "A Subtle Agency," to Pan Macmillan and it simply disappeared into a black hole.

[3] What are your experiences with attempts to contact agents and publishers?

[4] What do you do to manage formats for publishing, to best reflect a professional style?


message 13: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 11755 comments Graeme wrote: "Kick Off!

Lukeman starts with presentation, and is explicitly focused on avoiding a publisher's "Reject Slushpile of To Be Forgotten Manuscripts."

For self-publishers, this is equivalent of avoid..."


I am only self-published now so the slush pile is irrelevant, but..

(1) Presentation. Cover is important - I use a commercial artist. We can all argue whether the covers are any good. I did start off trying to do my own, but most of them had to be replaced. The blurb is hideously difficult, and is almost worth a separate section. The opening chapter has to be attention grabbing, but in my opinion, not ridiculously so. Therein lies the difficulty - to get it to stand out, but for the right reason. I think it is better to be a bit subdued as opposed to being "over the top", which irritates me and puts me off buying.

(2) & (3) My experience has been that agents are not interested in someone new from NZ in a fringe genre, so I gave up. You have to send a letter pitching the book, and I only got one response. The agent took it up, gave it to the editor of a major, the editor died while on holiday (accident, as far as I can make out) and the book went south. I was not lucky, and I have since given up, largely because it take about 2 years to get a book published and everyone decides whether to try another (unless you are famous) and at my age, with 12 already self-published, even if I got lucky I would probably be dead before half-way through.

(4) For ebooks, I compile them using Jutoh. This, in general, produces botha professional looking finish, and it does so consistently, i.e. if you have a series, they all look the same.

The real trick is to get the first page or so right. Does anyone want me to post from one of mine?


message 14: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan I'm ok with seeing a first page, it's what we're dealing with.


message 15: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 11755 comments OK here is a first page - plenty to get stuck into as I am sure a lot of you will find something you think should not be there:

Pallas Athene was in disgrace, but she felt that it was worth every gram of it for she had immortalized herself, starting over three thousand years before she was born. Yes, she knew that her career as a serious classical historian was over, and being consigned to this miserable cell was not exactly a career highlight, but on the bright side the cell did not have a means of evacuation. If it had, and if there were even a remote possibility that such an evacuation could have been reported as accidental, she was quite certain she would have been consigned to the depths of space. Instead, all they could do was to put her in a shuttle and return her to Earth tomorrow. They would also make certain that she would never be given permission to use the temporal viewer again.
The temporal viewer was one of the great triumphs of twenty-fourth century science, although it depended on theory established by Lansfeld in the late twenty-third century. Prior to Lansfeld, time had a rather peculiar status in physics: it was considered a coordinate, just like distance, which meant you could travel either way on it. The trouble was, you couldn't. One explanation for this problem was that going forwards was simply growing old or being in suspended animation, but going backwards defied conservation laws and the second law of thermodynamics.
The conservation laws arose because one piece of otherwise empty space was as good as another, and one piece of time was as good as another. If you were a footballer trying to kick a goal, if you gave exactly the same kick under exactly the same conditions, the ball would go on exactly the same trajectory whether you were playing at home or away, whether you were kicking towards north or south, or whether you did it today or tomorrow. If energy were not conserved, it could come and go as it pleased and the ball could dribble away for a few meters or go completely out of the field on the same kick. Sport would be impossible, as, for that matter, would be life for there would be no planets and no molecules. Travelling back in time implied that energy and matter were suddenly destroyed in the present and created in the past, in direct violation of conservation laws.


message 16: by Alex (new)

Alex (asato) I have the book in hand, but haven't broken it open yet. This week sometime.


message 17: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Ian wrote: "(4) For ebooks, I compile them using Jutoh. This, in general, produces botha professional looking finish, and it does so consistently, i.e. if you have a series, they all look the same...."

Hi Ian, do you have a link to Jutoh?


message 19: by Graeme (new) - added it

Graeme Rodaughan Closing this thread due to lack of interest.


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