The Sword and Laser discussion
Digital public libraries
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Jason wrote: "Do any of you have your library card number memorized? I’ve started memorizing mine, trying knew apps and to logging into my local library’s online catalog."It's easy enough to add your library cards to your phone. Add them in the wallet where you would normally put credit cards for making payments. Google it for specific phone instructions.
Suzanne wrote: "I get e-books from my public library all the time. They are usually available or have short holds, but some popular or new titles have such long waits I will look for other methods. I LOVE that lib..."I concur! My experience has been similar, and I really enjoy the service. My feeling is not enough of the public knows about this terrific service offered by their local libraries.
Here in Los Angeles every new book has a wait list from the get go. There is also a nice feature Los Angeles Public Library has on its site, the "recommend a title" section. I have gone to town on that one. I know it not just me, but if enough people recommend the same book or audio it gets brought. This is how it works, there was a short story collection I wanted, so I typed in the editor's name and a few books shows up. There is a tab the you can click, Recommend to library. If a title says "Not Owned" click it and the library will ask "recommend and put on wait list, " click that and hope. That's how I got Circe so fast. Which leads me to a ask. If you have a LAPL account can you help me getting Gobbolino The Witch's Cat brought ? It is by Ursula Moray Williams and it a lovely kids story about a Witch's cat who wants to be a Kitchen cat!
Stephen wrote: "Here in Los Angeles every new book has a wait list from the get go. There is also a nice feature Los Angeles Public Library has on its site, the "recommend a title" section."I make 15-20 "Suggest a Purchase" requests to my library, and [almost] without fail, they will purchase said book, or in my case comic book trade.
David wrote: "terpkristin, all the DC area Council of Government member jurisdictions have reciprocity. You actually have to go and present ID to get a card, but you can get one. If you search for a title your o..."I second David's comment; I have reciprocal accounts at 3 other libraries in the neighboring states; there are 8 in total available. The rest are hard for me to get to, to complete the registration process.
Even with 4 library systems available, I still have issues getting the book of the month in any form. I signed up for Wrinkle in Time in January, kept the shortest wait line, and just dropped this book this month. I was #13 in line.
Libby's got a great feature that tells you stats on your wait for a book so you can decide which to stick with. In Holds, next to the book click on "Wait List" and you see your approximate wait time, your place in line, number of copies in use, total # of people waiting and how many people per book.
For Circe I have a book (14 week wait) and an audio (9 week wait) *sigh*, no participation in the discussions for me it seems.
I make extensive use of libraries for traditionally published work but will gladly pay for indies. Dennis E. Taylor, Kate Danley, Gail Carriger's self-published novellas - they can have my money.And while I will much prefer to check out a book from a library, I occasionally think about the value proposition. We get so many hours of entertainment for such a small amount, it's just not that big a deal to pay if that's the only way. A movie easily costs $20 each with popcorn and soda, a latte is $5 and we usually tip. We pay a bundle of money for cable/satellite/internet. $10 for a book that will take 20 hours to read isn't that bad. We've just gotten used to cheap books.
David wrote: "Haha, there's two Davids here in the DC area with lots of library cards.I put my libraries as "saved libraries" on Ovedrive.com so when I search it automatically filters for what I already have a..."
That is funny. One of the benefits of living in the DC area. I love that you can search across saved libraries in OD and almost always show it to library patrons when doing e-book training. Of course, as a Circulation Manager, it's kind of putting myself out of a job.
John (Taloni) wrote: "$10 for a book that will take 20 hours to read isn't that bad. We've just gotten used to cheap books."But Circe is $14 for only a 5 or 6 hour read. Just sayin' :)
Aaron wrote: "Many southern California public libraries allow any resident of the state to get a card (I have a dozen or so). Whenever you travel, try to make time to check that card policies of the area you are..."I'm going to see if I can get a Glendale/Pasadena library card in addition to my LAPL one.
AndrewP wrote: "John (Taloni) wrote: "$10 for a book that will take 20 hours to read isn't that bad. We've just gotten used to cheap books."But Circe is $14 for only a 5 or 6 hour read. Just sayi..."
I’ve noticed that publishers looked at the recording industry’s doomed attempt at keeping the money train rolling and went, “Yeah, that’s for us!”
When digital copies of your product become easy to share and steal, the response shouldn’t be “let’s jack up the prices and make it even less appealing”. That’s what killed the record companies.
Once people discovered it only cost the record companies 69 cents per unit to manufacture, market and ship CDs, they were doubly disinclined to buy music. Now that the cat is out of the bag that the book publishers were lying this entire time about the cost of printing and shipping books, we’re seeing the exact same forces at work.
The current trend is not just increasing prices but charging ridiculous amounts for less content. The gravy train of $10 novellas is already coming to an end, so they’ve decided to increase prices.
I use the digital library extensively. I've had to wait a few months for a few books, but others I get either immediately or in a week or 2. I Tend to keep a few holds open at any given time and if I'm not quite ready for the book yet I can "suspend" my hold, which holds my place in line but lets the guy behind me get the book first since I'm not ready yet. I'm on both the city and county libraries.The Libby app makes it easy to manage my 2 library logins to Overdrive in one place.
Trike wrote: "Once people discovered it only cost the record companies 69 cents per unit to manufacture, market and ship CDs, they were doubly disinclined to buy music. Now that the cat is out of the bag that the book publishers were lying this entire time about the cost of printing and shipping books, we’re seeing the exact same forces at work...."Oh for god's sake. The artifact isn't what gives a book or recording its value. Yeah, it's cheap to produce the physical thing but you very conveniently ignored the fact that the people who actually make the book a book need to be paid. You know... the author. The editors (yes, plural). And yes, the marketing and sales people. Hell, I hear companies actually like to retain some profit too!
If you actually think the physical cost of the product is the basis for the price you don't understand the value chain.
A book that costs $14 and takes say, 6 hours to read is costing you all $2.33 per hour. How many of you are typing replies here o n $1000 or more devices? How many of you spend $50-100 every month for the broadband that lets you read these words? How many of you stop for coffee that you will quite literally piss away and drop $2-$5 on it?
Whining about book prices is the most puerile of avocations. If you're truly hard up and can't afford a new book (been there), by all means, pass or use the library. But the few dollars difference between the price of the book as it is and what we'd like to pay is trivial if that's not the case.
PS: wait a year. This will likely be $7.99. Hell, it might go on sale like her first book did and you can get it for $2 or so.
That whooshing sound is the point whizzing over your head.
Trike wrote: "That whooshing sound is the point whizzing over your head."Not even. Another thinly veiled whine about pricing. Nice try though.
Just checked my library and no William Gibson, wha?!? I had a hankering to read Neuromancer again. I'm surprised at their selection. Most of the scifi and fantasy books are less than 20 years old.
Just for the record: I will pay $14 or more for an author I have previously enjoyed. For an out of the blue book club pick that I know nothing about.. not a chance.
@trike - cute. Meaningless (I get the record company comparison and you're wrong) but cute. Come back when you can say something intelligent.On topic: I'm on the fence about buying this. Definitely not getting it via the library (40 copies, 190 holds...) I liked Song of Achilles so I have some confidence that the writing will be good but I don't know that I'm in the mood to drop $14 on it. We'll see. The thing is... if this were $9.99 I'd not even hesitate... yet it's only a $4 difference which really isn't meaningful in economic terms. I mean, I just spent $6 that on a croissant and coffee because I woke up too late to make breakfast before work. Consumer psychology :)
I do think it matters how much one reads, too. $14 every month isn't a big deal. $14 times 7 books a month for every new book you want to read? Bigger deal to most people.
Rick wrote: "@trike - cute. Meaningless (I get the record company comparison and you're wrong) but cute. Come back when you can say something intelligent.."Okay, I’ll explain:
Like the music industry, the publishing industry is seeing its market contract.
1. The record companies lied to consumers about costs.
2. Then they treated consumers like criminals.
3. Then they jacked up their prices.
4. Then their business all but disappeared.
1. The publishing companies lied about costs.
2. Now they’re treating consumers like criminals. (DRM)
3. Now they’ve jacked up their prices.
4. Guess what’s coming.
It also happened to the comic book industry. There are plenty of warning signs that this is a repeat scenario.
20 years ago there were assholes who were going, “Stop complaining about prices! They need to make money and look what you get, dumbasses!” That argument didn’t work then and it won’t work now. Look at this thread and GR in general: plenty of people complain about the costs and these are the hardcore audience. If they’re starting to lose this group, that means they’ve ALREADY lost the general public. Sales figures back that up.
There have always been industry folks who were warning against this sort of thing. Tom Petty famously fought with his record company over their predatory pricing. During the trial he even resorted to stealing the master tapes of his own album and gave them to a friend who drove them around in his car, just so Petty could honestly answer the question of “Where are the tapes now?” with “I don’t know.” David Bowie did something similar but less contentious, by allowing people to invest in him as an artist, giving him complete control over pricing and distribution of his work.
In publishing we have people like Cory Doctorow talking about this exact same thing, giving the exact same warning.
Compare pricing to coffee or phones or cable or whatever you want, the fact of the matter is twofold: 1) it doesn’t matter because people don’t think like that and 2) sales of ALL of those things are down across the board.
Smartphone sales are down for the first time ever. Saturation point reached, people have stopped the upgrade cycle. Coffee sales are down, because it’s too expensive. Cord cutting is increasing as people cut costs.
Book sales are the canary in the coal mine. So doing things the way the record companies did is idiotic.
It's a simple question of economics, why buy a digital book for $15 when you can buy a paperback for $5 and resale it or read it for free from the library? The publishers are scrambling so hard to survive today they aren't looking at tomorrow.
Brooke wrote: "Many Texas libraries also participate in the TexShare..."Thank you! It's is cool. Our local library is a member unfortunately I can't figure out how to register for it. The TexShare site refers me to my library website but my library refers me back to TexShare - it's a loop!
Charles wrote: "Brooke wrote: "Many Texas libraries also participate in the TexShare..."Thank you! It's is cool. Our local library is a member unfortunately I can't figure out how to register for it. The TexShare..."
Ahh! NVM they DON'T participate stating costs.
The market change is already here. Many indie authors put books out for 3.99. Usually they aren't lengthy tomes like a Peter Hamilton book, but you can get them for fairly cheap. The ebook market rewards authors who put out smaller books faster. Traditional publishing will still exist, and will ask higher prices. It will represent a smaller group of authors.
One bone of contention for me is back catalog. If I want to get a book that is over a decade old, why is it still being sold for a new-book price? The cost to produce the book is already long paid and presumably recouped. But some are changing as, for instance, I can get all of the books in the "Mission of Gravity" series by Hal Clement for $8 on Amazon. It even has some extras.
John (Taloni) wrote: "One bone of contention for me is back catalog. If I want to get a book that is over a decade old, why is it still being sold for a new-book price? The cost to produce the book is already long paid and presumably recouped. But some are changing as, for instance, I can get all of the books in the "Mission of Gravity" series by Hal Clement for $8 on Amazon. It even has some extras. "I don't understand this either. Make the back catalog available (so many books aren't) and sell them at a discount. They'll still make a profit and probably sell more copies at the discounted rate.
Charles wrote: "It's a simple question of economics, why buy a digital book for $15 when you can buy a paperback for $5 and resale it or read it for free from the library? The publishers are scrambling so hard to ..."Well, because you can't buy the paperback for $5 right now. If you want it NOW, you spend $14 for the ebook or $17 for the hardcover of Circe, for example. Yes, the mass market paperback will come out at $7.99-9.99 etc but at that point the ebook will drop too.
Resales are a red herring in my view. The best resale price I can get for books in Like New condition is 25% of the cover price. A $9.99 paperback thus brings me $2.50. Woo.
Sorry, but I just find it silly to complain about ebook pricing when we spend so much on other things from the devices we're typing on to the coffee we drink, etc. For the entertainment I get most books are a great deal and I want everyone from the author to the bookseller to make enough that they continue to turn out great stuff. If I can't afford a book or don't feel it's worth it I'll use the library or wait to see if it goes on sale or if the price drops.
John (Taloni) wrote: "The market change is already here. Many indie authors put books out for 3.99. Usually they aren't lengthy tomes like a Peter Hamilton book, but you can get them for fairly cheap. The ebook market r..."
First, I *totally* agree on back catalog stuff. If I were a publisher, I'd run a much more sophisticated auction pricing system to maximize sales on those. Some are classics and likely sell well at full price but I know I'd pick up ebook versions of things like older Heinlein etc at discounted prices just to have them around as re-reads.
On indie authors... face it, a high percentage of that stuff is poorly to indifferently written and edited. My time is worth something and I'd rather not wade through 3 or 4 books to find one that's good (and if I do my total outlay is about... $13-15...). A few indie authors do really well though. It's like Youtube creators... most are crap but a few are really good and are doing well in that model.
PS: The music industry was different since we rarely really want entire albums. Napster and later services didn't win just because of price, but because we could get the 2 or 3 songs we really wanted from an album for $1 per. Books don't work like that - it makes no sense to get 2 or 3 chapters out of a novel and novels are not equivalent to songs (short stories and novellas are and... witness the success of Tor's novella effort so far)..
PPS: The music industry was also vulnerable to streaming which makes a lot of sense from a consumer point of view. Books... are not really something you can stream. As for a Netflix for books... that's what libraries are. Sorry but combined with the fact that prices drop over time, that many books have drastic sales here and there and that you can check an ebook out from a library means that cost is only a consideration if someone insists on having a book on release and isn't willing to wait in a library queue.
Rick wrote: "Well, because you can't buy the paperback for $5 right now."No, the paperback is $5 right now (I'm not referring to Circe and never was). Why buy a ebook for $15 when I can buy a hardcopy for $5. Doesn't make sense to me. Yes, you get peanuts for resale but you can't resale digital. I can also loan out a hardcopy which is very cumbersome with an ebook.
Charles wrote: "Rick wrote: "Well, because you can't buy the paperback for $5 right now."No, the paperback is $5 right now (I'm not referring to Circe and never was). Why buy a ebook for $15 when I can buy a hard..."
Which book are you referring to then? If you're going to use an example, link it.
Also, what you're saying is NOT the case most of the time. Usually, then the price drops for one edition, it drops for all of them, so let's not pretend that a single exception is somehow the rule.
Look, there are definitely advantages to a physical book. There are different advantages to ebooks. Which ones any one of us prefers is always going to be an individual choice.
So I just looked at my recent Kindle orders. Of my last 10 books bought, only one was full price. I got most others due to temporary sales so they were under $5 usually under $3. So... I flat out don't get the whining about pricing. Yeah, if you want a new release ON release and won't wait you'll pay. But that's because you're assigning value to reading that book right now. Guess what, you have to pay for that value. You're OK with waiting? You'll be able to get it for less.
Rick wrote: "Charles wrote: "Rick wrote: "Well, because you can't buy the paperback for $5 right now."No, the paperback is $5 right now (I'm not referring to Circe and never was). Why buy a ebook for $15 when ..."
Here are a couple of examples were the paperback is cheaper that the ebook:
https://www.amazon.com/Better-Part-Da...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000O76ON6/...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...
https://www.amazon.com/Head-John-Scal...
https://www.amazon.com/Girl-Tower-Nov...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BQMJYCQ/...
https://www.amazon.com/Plague-Giants-... (This one may not be a great example since the paperback hasn't been released yet, but pre-sale prices is almost half of ebook.)
Rick wrote: "So I just looked at my recent Kindle orders. Of my last 10 books bought, only one was full price. I got most others due to temporary sales so they were under $5 usually under $3. So... I flat out d..."These flash sales annoy me and make me scratch my head, why charge $10 to $15 for an ebook just to slash the price every once in a while to $0.99 to $4.99. Doing so under values the price of the book and just makes readers wait (and hoping) for a sale. Just mark the price at slightly above the discount price and leave it there.
Mod
Most people who want to: read a book, see a movie, play a video game etc want it straight away and will pay full price.
Sales are for the people who don't mind waiting, are on the fence about it, can't afford full price etc.
They are 2 very different groups.
I actually think eBooks today, even at full price are a bargain. I was paying $20+ for paper backs over 20 years ago. (Living in a remote community and having to buy books via mail order or at a drastic mark up wasn't cheap)
Tassie Dave wrote: "Sales are for the people who don't mind waiting, are on the fence about it, can't afford full price etc.They are 2 very different groups."
That makes sense. I have so many books in my "to read pile" that I don't mind waiting since it will probably be a couple of weeks to months before I read something I buy. Also, with the availability of good inexpensive ebooks I tend to shop the sales first before I look at the most expensive books.
Some people have a pro-tradpub bias, or anti-indie bias, depending on how you look at it. For me it goes the other way. Tradpub ebooks are usually available in the library with a little waiting. I don't think I'm hurting an author by checking it out of the library as they have chosen that sales channel.Indies, however, need my money. While I have stumbled on the occasional poorly-written book, I find that on the whole they are fine. It's true I give a little more leeway to indies. I could forgive some silly plot points in the Bobiverse books because he was pretty much a one-man shop and had a great premise. In the Kate Danley "Maggie for Hire" books there is Earth and then The Other Side, where magical beings live. One of the books, the third as I recall, had Maggie and the group on the Queen Mary going from one side to the other of the ship, but a global search and replace had it capitalized as The Other Side as if they were going between realms, which they demonstrably were not. I rolled my eyes, kept going, and enjoyed that book as well as the next seven in the series just fine.
It's not just Indie books though. I will regularly spot typos and poorly constructed sentences in tradpub books. Wrong use of To, Too, and Two. Neal Asher and the characters constantly dipping their heads. Peter Hamilton using "judder" every five pages because apparently "shudder" isn't pretentious enough. And then there's my favorite example: The first printing of Ringworld had the Earth rotating the wrong way. Niven didn't notice, nor his editor, nor anyone in the chain, until readers got the book. Didn't stop Ringworld from winning the Hugo.
Also, services like Autocrit have reduced the incidence of silly errors and left editorial bugaboos to word choice and sentence construction. On the whole an Indie book is better edited than a tradpub SFF book of the 70s. I'm fine with the level of quality. Indie pub offers an outlet even for tradpub authors, as for instance Gail Carriger is self-pubbing novellas that do a deep dive on minor characters from the Parasol Protectorate. (They're great, give 'em a shot.)
So yeah, Indie books can be a crapshoot. So can tradpub. There's options for both. Use the library for tradpub and the intro download option for indie and see if you like 'em. Go Kindle Unlimited if you read a lot and want to sample the indie works without further investment. Plenty of ways to go that don't cost a lot.
Tassie Dave wrote: "I actually think eBooks today, even at full price are a bargain. I was paying $20+ for paper backs over 20 years ago. (Living in a remote community and having to buy books via mail order or at a drastic mark up wasn't cheap) ."
As a counterpoint from someone who didn’t live on a remote island off the shoulder of Antarctica... (I jest. Slightly.)
When I first started working as a teenager in the late 70s/early 80s, the minimum wage was about $3.25 or so. A top-of-the-line paperback cost either $3 or $4. The SFF I read was around $2, one of the few times the SF ghetto worked in our favor. I’m looking at my copy of McCaffrey’s The White Dragon first printing with a cover price of $2.25. Other books I own from that era cost between $1.25 and $1.95.
So for 2 hours’ work I could buy 3 books.
I spent essentially the entire summer of 1982 in the movie theatre, where I could see 2 movies and have a snack for an hour’s work.
Compare that to today where minimum wage is $7.25. Some states are paying $12 or $15 as the minimum, but even at those higher rates you can only buy a single book or see one movie for an hour’s work. Most people have to work for 2 hours to buy something that cost my 16-year-old self less than an hour’s work.
Groceries are just as bad. I remember my mom commenting once that she used to figure on a bag of groceries costing about $1 per item in the 1980s. Nowadays that’s $3 per item. That adds up, especially when your wage has only doubled in that same period.
Real purchasing power for these things has declined over the past 35 years. Probably the only major purchase that has actually declined in cost relative to an annual salary is TVs.
So when old people are complaining about the cost of things, they’re remembering when a buck bought more. For younger people there is the expectation that some things are just free while buying other things just become unsustainable over time.
It’s not that any one book or movie or whatever is too expensive considered in a vacuum, it’s the death of a thousand cuts.
My library uses Overdrive. I have checked out a few books that way. I also borrow books from the library using Amazon Kindle, a dozen that way. I like to read them on my phone. I get them for three weeks with no renewals. The books that I have checked out have two or three copies available electronically. Sometimes I check out both paper and electronically.
Gary, how does your library offer Kindle? I ask because I use Overdrive which goes to my Kindle...well, my Kindle app because I don't like the Kindle devices. Does your library offer a separate interface?
I check out an e-book. I go to get e-content. There are options, though not all e-books have all the options. I can pick overdrive, epub, pdf, or kindle. When I choose kindle it sends me to the amazon page for the book. If I am logged on to amazon, then I can check out the book. I can read it on the kindle or send it to the app.
Our library recently switched from Overdrive to RB Digital. I hate it. There doesn't seem to be as good as a selection. Somebody really needs to tell the cataloging people what sci-fi and fantasy are (not paranormal romance and Nora Roberts...really??) and there is no way to recommend books like there was on Overdrive.
My library has both. RBDigital seems to have only out of copy right books. Their magazine collection is okay. Libraries often have to pay several times list for e-books depending on publisher. Smaller library system may just not be able to afford both e and print.
Hi all, librarian from Sweden here. We have a compleatly different system. Here the library pays per download. So the library sets an upper limit on the download coast per book (for ex. nothing more expensive than 20 Kr per dowload) but there is no hold or return system. Everyone gets to borrow any book they want from the catalog but there is usually a weekly/monthly limit. The problem is that the publisher sometimes set ridiculously high download costs and even divide the books up to get more downloads. But, for patrons I’d say it’s a better system.
Charles wrote: "These flash sales annoy me and make me scratch my head, why charge $10 to $15 for an ebook just to slash the price every once in a while to $0.99 to $4.99......."Usually to draw you in and introduce you to an author. The Song of Achilles is a perfect example. It gets you to check out Miller's work just as Circe is released and the hope is that you buy Circe at full price if you like Song.
It's also a way of enticing people to try an author's work when the work has been out awhile. For example, some of Brust's Vlad Taltos books went on sale a few months ago. They've been out for YEARS and I'd not tried them because they just didn't pique my interest to the point where I wanted to spend $10 on one. On sale? I grabbed a couple. Now that I know what they are, I might buy another at full price. Or (in this case) not. Ebooks are the perfect medium for this since they can do pricing experiments, drop the price for 2 days right before a release, etc.
Also @Charles Here are a couple of examples were the paperback is cheaper that the ebook:
The ones I checked are all full price now. They might have been on sale when you posted that list but come on, of course sales happen and of course they're temporarily cheap then. That's the nature of a sale. If you're arguing that ebooks are habitually priced less than the paperback, sales don't count unless you want to argue that things should never go on sale.
@Anna - I'd love to see a composite system where I could check things out up to a certain number of books per month with no waitlist and, if I want more, I go on a waitlist. Oh well...
@Trike - "Real purchasing power for these things has declined over the past 35 years. Probably the only major purchase that has actually declined in cost relative to an annual salary is TVs."
Yeah, wages have been stagnant (and thus declined in real terms) for the last generation. This shows up in debates on college tuition all the time, too. 50+ year olds can't understand why kids need 5 figure loans as we worked our way through. But we COULD because a 20hour/week job paid for tuition then. It won't now.
@Tassie Dave "Most people who want to: read a book, see a movie, play a video game etc want it straight away and will pay full price."
Yep and that's rational pricing in action. It trades off one thing for another (money for time in this case) as a good rationing system should. You want that right now? It's $N. Willing to wait (trade time for money)? It's some fraction of $N. Willing to wait AND monitor for sales? You can get it for even less... maybe. Willing to get in line behind, perhaps, dozens of others? You can read it for free from the library.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
The White Dragon (other topics)Circe (other topics)
Circe (other topics)
Gobbolino the Witch's Cat (other topics)
Circe (other topics)
I put my libraries as "saved libraries" on Ovedrive.com so when I search it automatically filters for what I already have access to.