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Chad
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Mar 07, 2018 01:38PM
What is the origin of the doctrine of the Trinity? The word Trinity is not used in the Bible. Are there hints of the Trinity in the OT?
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I think there are "hints".I was taught the trinity was first alluded to in Genesis 1:1, where Elohim (plural) is translated God. I learned the Hebrew allows for one of something, a couple, or three or more. Like we might say something, a pair of things, or just things (1, 2, 3).
My present conviction based on personal research is that el is god in Hebrew (as al is god in Arabic), Eloi is the God (as Allah is the God), and Elohim as originally written without vowels or markings would have been understood as The God of all gods from which anything that might be construed as a god would have to emanate from.
The whole idea of Father, Son, and Spirit fits and makes sense to me. But I personally think the "trinity" encompasses the essence of everything we know, and everything outside our perception and limited imagination. The "doctrine" of the trinity is an institutional statement of religious dogma. I have no problem accepting and embracing it.
I'll depend on Robert D to now tell me what I would believe if I were really a Christian, understood the actual Bible text as God meant it to be interpretted, and followed the TRUE Christ.
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6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
It's all there. But wait! There's more.
Eric, love the reference of Genisis 1:1. From the very first verse there is a hint that God is something more... That God is relational. Plus your posts are not only informative, but hilarious. Rod love the Isaiah reference as well. It seems every story whispers His name... from beginning to end.
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Joshua 5
The Commander of the LORD’s Army
13When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” 14And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” 15And the commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.
...and THAT - Is Jesus. He makes the ground Holy. And Revelation shows that Jesus is incharge of His own army.
Revelation 19
11Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
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9When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me.” 10And he said, “You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so.” 11And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12And Elisha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw him no more.
I doubt he got Elijah's spirit. That would be small potatoes. But a prophet with God's spirit dwelling in him? Indeed. Same goes for Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 1
9Then the LORD put out his hand and touched my mouth. And the LORD said to me,
“Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.
10See, I have set you this day over nations and over kingdoms,
to pluck up and to break down,
to destroy and to overthrow,
to build and to plant.”
My view:1. Before time, some source outside our space/time continuum (God the creator/father/original source/initial entity) envisioned a universe of space, matter, and time; designed his blueprint; and executed his plan bringing orderly form to reality like any architect or programmer.
2. As GOD transcended from his omniscient, omnipresent, all-powerful eternal state, his Spirit engaged in the actual creative enterprise. Va Ruach Elohim merehepech al pene ha'mayim. The Spirit of God hovered over the waters. Every time the original master programmer needs to address his 3D video game he engages by virtue of his Spirit as the link between the supernatural and the natural. Ancients understood this to be the "ghost state" in the sphere of what we now call the paranormal.
3. Jesus was a person, flesh and blood, with one X chromosome that held all the genetic code he needed to be full human. His physical traits all came from his mother's "hereditary pool". Mary's eyes, Eli's beard, David's physique, Boaz's dimples, Abraham's dark thick wavy hair, Noah's ears, whatever.
4. Before the inception of time, GOD programmed a virgin with the capacity to accept a synthetic Y chromosome (sperm substitute) that commenced a pregnancy that yielded Immanu El.
5. Leviticus tells us life is "in the blood" (DNA) of every creature. When Jesus' blood seeped from his side and he was empty and dry, The recessive synthetic genes took over and began to do what stem cells still do. Every cell replicated at an accelerated pace and in three days fully reconstituted the entire closed structure the cells containing the DNA inhabited. The physician self-healed from the inside out.
1. God is God and "He is beyond my comprehension".
2. The Holy Spirit is His transitional element able to assume spiritual essence or material form.
3. Jesus is a collection of elements (atoms, quarks, Higgs bossoms) that constitutes a specified form relative to ha'adam. (made from the same dust, dirt, chemical elements everything on Earth is made from.)
It would take days for me to unfurl what I believe has been entrusted to me in my pursuit of degrees in Biology and Theology and cursory study of the Hebrew language and ancient culture.
I am writing a book on the matter though. If anyone's interested I'll get you a pre-publication draft to review and critique for me.
Or you can just avoid me and talk behind my back, now that I'm "out". LOL
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When we get to heaven, you can be the first to say, "I told you so, but noooooo!". And yet; we all enjoyed the tar & feathering of the heretic. We'll have fond memories. Laughs all around.
Rod wrote: "Over time, we'll learn to disagree greatly on issues. So be it. But please try and explain..."I am a simple concrete thinker. Some people are blessed with naive, even blind, faith. I'm the Thomas in the group who says show me the scars. But I have never found the Bible to be anything but logical.
Everything from the creation epoch to the resurrection and the "lesser" miracles in between is scientifically and historically defensible. I temper my religious philosophy with intellectual reasoning. I find a trinity, or God-head, as easy to perceive as a molecule of H2O being in the form of ice, water, or steam depending on conditions and needs.
The reason I back off of discussions like this, or the thread you started on the rapture, is because I don't think the matter can be addressed over a chat. It's like several people attacking an iceberg from their various positions and angles with their own icepicks. There's always someone who never used an ice pick. He's going to draw blood eventually (his own or someone else's). And there's generally somebody who thinks he is the only one enlightened enough to interpret the ice manual. We have both here, don't we?
I don't mind stating my piece, but I usually wouldn't do it here. I don't care to take a casual friendly discussion board into the weeds or off a cliff. I'm tempted to get into creation with regard to thermodynamics and quantum mechanics with Cole because I get the impression he could go there. I have other deep veins I would have fun pursuing with you or with Chad. Tyrone and Michael are so good-hearted I'd love to relate with them on a different level but I haven't figured them out yet. And of course there is one among us who is too difficult to engage beyond dueling over recitation and interpretation of specific passages of Scripture.
It's late and I'm tired. So I'll apologize, excuse myself, and come back to this when I am better suited to address it.
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I approach the Bible and theology like Sherlock Holmes. Few seem to do that.
We all have our styles. It's fascinating indeed. Makes communication awkward at times. But it's worth it.
Chad wrote: "What is the origin of the doctrine of the Trinity? The word Trinity is not used in the Bible. Are there hints of the Trinity in the OT?"The word 'Bible ' isn't in the Bible either. Just saying...
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Eric wrote: "Everything from the creation epoch to the resurrection and the "lesser" miracles in between is scientifically and historically defensible."I agree. In fact, I am continually amazed at how recent scientific discovery (physical science, social science, and historical science) confirm what the Bible says and teaches.
Once small example... for decades in the United States, the number people who live together before getting married has been on the rise. In secular circles (and even some Christians) have come to accept this as a societal norm.
Sue Johnson, considered to be one of the top researchers in her field of social science and has been widely recognized for the work she has done on studying love from a scientific stand point, says in her book, Love Sense: The Revolutionary New Science of Romantic Relationships, that, "About 41 percent of U.S. couples now cohabit before they wed, compared with only 16 percent in 1980."
Keep in mind that Dr. Sue Johnson is by no means a Christian. I'm not sure what she believes, but I would guess she is agnostic. She goes on to discuss in her book how important it is for couples to refrain from living together before getting married and how important it is for the future of their relationship that couples not have sex before marriage either.
She says these things based on the research she has done on love over the course of about 25 years of study.
Her research on love, throughout the entire book she wrote, confirms the Biblical view of relational love as outlined in the Bible... and she never referenced the Bible once. But her research clearly confirmed God's stance on marriage and other things concerning love.
There are many other examples of recent scientific discovery that confirm Biblical teachings... maybe I should save those for another thread... kind of got off track on this post.
I'll throw in a bit of discussion on the Trinity... Speaking of marriage... Marriage can be considered a reflection of the Trinity as well. Man --> God <-- Woman.
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They still have 2 Persons of God.
Matthew 3
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
All the Trinity anyone needs. No reason to complicate it.
I believe in the Trinity but only from the standpoint of division of labor. God knows all he permits himself to know (not what we do spontaneously or whether we will actually ever attain the Faith necessary to worship him). For our original sin, Jesus was chosen as our Savior. He knows what God lets him know to accomplish his first task, to be the vehicle for Salvation; and eventually, his second, to usher in the Millenium. When we Believe in the Son, the Holy Spirit enters within, who has his own orders from God and strict parameters on their use. For instance, he can save us from a dread disease, but he can't make us fly! Without 3 separate entities, with 3 different skill sets, and 3 different tasks, there would be no need for a Trinity - one God would suffice.
Robert wrote: "not what we do spontaneously or whether we will actually ever attain the Faith necessary to worship him."Are you saying God is not omniscient?
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Of course, they'd have to accept the entire bible as factual before the conversation could even begin.
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Rod wrote: "Me personally, I believe God has a plan --- not a crystal ball."Perhaps the key. Well put. "I know the plans I have for you..." We never surprise Him.
Our kids sometimes disappoint and sometimes make us very pleased. We know what we want for them. And we know there are consequences in life. Now remove the covering of time, space and matter and consider the God-scale view. Wow.
Chad - if God is omniscient, that makes our lives entirely meaningless because we would have no choice in anything we do. If it's all preordained by God, what's the sense of it. Come to think of it, even if nothing's preordained, there isn't too much sense to it anyway!
Isn't that a bit like saying, "Since we're all going to die anyway, why live?"I can read a book I've read, or see a movie I've seen, or go to a place I've been, or eat a cake I've eaten, and enjoy it immensely.
Here's the rub... I have the opportunity to put a book aside and read something else. I have the power to leave a theater and watch something else. I have the ability to leave a place and go someplace else. And I have the freewill to eat a cake like I always have, add ice cream, or stop eating it all together.
Say what you will about predestination, but I'm going to consider my situation and employ my freewill to see, hear, go and do what's I CHOOSE for reasons I value, knowing that whether you want to call it freewill or predestination... I alone lived my life, made my choices, and affected my ultimate fate.
No Eric, you don't have any of those freedoms if God is omniscient. By definition then, He knows what you will do before you do it so you're merely the puppet with His hand up your back. Put another way, you are a thrown rock who says it knows where it is going to land, but is ignorant of the forces that determine it's flight and landing spot.
That's only true if you believe God is restricted to the space/time continuum He created. If he is outside it: time, mass and matter are irrelevant. I think that is why it is difficult (impossible) for us to comprehend with a mortal mind. You say "going to happen", but that term has no basis in a realm outside the universe. God's domain is neither linear nor progressive. If I have a thought, it exists at a point in time while I am thinking it. But it is the culmination of developing intellectual energy and it lingers forever after I move on. So, in essence, it always was.
Great discussion... We should move it to a new thread. Calvinism vs Arminianism...
Eric - interesting take. For my scientific research to be followed upon, unless I or one of my students continue it, I assumed it had to be published in an academic journal (or perish). Your take is it is out in the ether or somehow outside the time, space continuum forever. Great, my work will be immortalized even it gets scant attention currently!
Chad wrote: "Eric, love the reference of Genisis 1:1. From the very first verse there is a hint that God is something more... That God is relational. "I like that too.
Just as an aside, I asked a Jew about that once, what they make of that. He told me it's like the royal plural. Like a monarch saying "We" meaning them alone.
I didn't find that convincing, but it was interesting to hear how they explain it (or ignore the implications :D). And of course, that's Judaism today. No idea what the ancient Hebrews would have said.
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I seldom deal with non-trinitarians. Usually they have a 100 other Bible problems as well. So driving this home is pointless. But i'm always game.
Rod wrote: "Good stuff.I seldom deal with non-trinitarians. Usually they have a 100 other Bible problems as well. So driving this home is pointless. But i'm always game."
I stuck with theists, well, monotheists plus Mormons. But I didn't do much more than watch on the side-lines with Jews. I just didn't know much about Judaism, and the Jews where I was were all very savvy anti-missionaries, meaning they intentionally did little to assist Christians in understanding Judaism.
Still, it was interesting and I learned some stuff. Learned tons about Islam and Mormonism, that's where I was most active.
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I spend most of my time dealing with liberals and Charismatics. Both are really annoying. I'd rather have Wizard battles with Wiccans.
Rod wrote: "I attempted to learn some Judaism stuff. But found most are so liberal now... many don't even believe in a god (even their Rabbi's don't think you need to believe in a god). They just worship their culture. It's more classic wisdom than a religion. Boggles my mind."Yup. The main guy I was talking to was...trying to remember what they call it, reformed orthodox maybe? Anyway, he told me it didn't matter what someone believed, they just needed to be obedient to the law. Well, that doesn't make tons of sense to me, God seems pretty firm in the OT He demands acknowledgement and worship. I could be mis-remembering, but I'm pretty sure he told me they didn't even believe in an afterlife.
They aren't all like that though, some do believe in God.
Ah yes, the fringey "Christians". I used to listen a lot to Chris Rosebrough's podcast, he really takes those types apart, and he's funny. He doesn't debate them, he plays clips then critiques and skewers them. Fun stuff.
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Rod wrote: "I'll have to listen to Chris Rosebrough's podcast. Sounds great. Thanks."He's really good, I think you'll like him. He's Lutheran, but his theology is really solid. It's called Fighting For The Faith.
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It's a crazy world. Her parents are now rising above basic Lutheranism. God Bless them. I do love Lutheran Satire comedy videos.
Rod wrote: "My wife's parents are hardcore Lutherans. I mean HARDCORE LUTHERANS. For years they could barely think or ponder any Biblical issue. I don't even think they cared what Luther said. Church tradition..."Yup, there are iffy Lutheran groups and really good Lutheran groups, just like other denominations. Rosebrough is the good kind. He usually sticks mostly to the essentials, but he's spot on. And he's very personable, likeable, and funny. IIRC he's a Calvinist. Pretty sure.
He does say negative things about "evangelicals", but what he means by that term are the televangelist, popular preacher types, and the mega-church stuff. There are solid Bible believing churches/pastors/people who identify as "evangelical" but that's not really what he means.
Oh and he trashes the kind of contemporary Christian music used in services - mostly deserved LOL.
I actually learned a lot listening to him. How to spot the good from the close-but-no-cigar stuff.
Some of you know my affinity for Judaism. It seems some of you are poking at it with a stick. Rather than giving you my take I would recommend a concise book with a good overview titled, Judaism in the Beginning of Christianity" by Jacob Neusner. He is a Jew and writes to bridge gaps. I think Alexandra would like him, may already know of him.For my two cents: el is god (small g) in Hebrew like al is a god in Arabic. El is a force of nature. More accurately a force on nature, usually from a supernatural essence. Thus wind, lightning, or anything powerful, effectual, and otherwise unexplainable.
When Jesus called out to Eloi, Eloi, on the cross, he was yelling to The God of nature (physicality and materialism, and perhaps metaphysics or spirituality in a natural universe).
Like Allah, Elohi is singular, Elohim is plural but always employed with a singular verb or article. Jews recognize a thing, a couple of things, and up to and including everything. We just have singular and plural.
The Elohim of the Bible could be three of something (conventional trinity), or it could be the source of all things (sole original creator).
Jews find "salvation" in Torah, the canon of rabbinical writings as they understand and accept them. That's their God-in-a-box.
Christians find "salvation" in Jesus, the man who incorporates and encapsulates the rabbinical Scriptures. That's our God-in-a-box.
Now we see through a glass darkly. We grope to understand and apply the incomprehensible. But, I believe Elohim of the Holy Bible grins at His little children and bids them to take small steps and form small words whilst he grows us up into the image of the Son he is so proud of.
Among Goodreads participants I have met, only one knows the TRUE Jesus, and he offends me greatly.
Eric wrote: "Some of you know my affinity for Judaism. It seems some of you are poking at it with a stick. Rather than giving you my take I would recommend a concise book with a good overview titled, Judaism in..."Thanks Eric! I hadn't heard of that book/author. I'll take a look. :D
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I've read books by x-Judaism expert, and now Christian: Michael Brown. He scratched his head at the floundering of Rabbi's. And he debates them often.
Rod wrote: "The problem with trusting Experts from Within Judaism is: when can you spiritually trust the spiritually blind?"I'd really only trust them regarding Judaism, and even then you have to be skeptical, because many Jews are hostile to Christians, very aware that helping them understand Judaism may be used to help them witness to Jews, and therefore they may be less than honest or less than forthright.
"I've read books by x-Judaism expert, and now Christian: Michael Brown. He scratched ..."
Michael Brown is good. Although Jews, unsurprisingly, reject him and what he says. So, you have to be careful using what he says as arguments with Jews. If they're knowledgeable anti-missionaries they'll just laugh at you.
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Rod - if prophesy is to be believed, as Christianity wanes worldwide it will find an awakening in the Judaic population and eventually center there. There's a parallel here for most of us - we strayed so far from God it seemed impossible we could ever come home; yet, here we are, reengaged and blathering away like we knew his will all along!
Rod wrote: "It's almost never that I assume they are lying- it's just that they can't see or comprehend what's right in front of them."I feel the same in general, however yes, there Jews who will lie to thwart Christians, but more typically they use tactics that are avoidance and misleading, and these types are often quite hostile in their attitudes when discussing the topic. Typically these are anti-missionaries.
The average Jew would not typically be like this.
I'll also say I do not assume. I find it to be an unwise thing to do under almost any circumstance. Rather, I have knowledge gleaned from interactions both witnessed and participated in, and understanding of views and tactics of certain sub-groups. Many times caution, understanding of various thoughts and attitudes, and some healthy skepticism, as well as not making assumptions, is often the smart way to go.
