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The Corinthian
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The Corinthian Group Read March 2018 - Spoilers Thread
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Elza wrote: "Knowing this was GH's first real Regency romance leads me to look for all the classic elements that show up here first.Right off the bat we have the family discussing the hero in absentia, the se..."
Some less frequent ones: the jewel which has to be recovered, even though it's paste (False Colours), the "I don't want to marry you if you are only offering to save my reputation" (Sprig Muslin?), Bow Street runners or other representatives of officialdom who have to be thrown off the scent to save a family's reputation (the riding officer in Unknown Ajax)...
Abigail wrote: "Yes, a bit. I was brought up by my grandmother and she was always thrusting me at older men, hoping they would "shape" me. Sixty-two and still unmarried, Grandma! Take that!"I laughed, yes, out loud, at that one! I think my grandmother, who was my hero because of her hands-off attitude, would have laughed, too.
It's always fun to put yourself in the hero/heroine's place and wonder if you would have behaved the same. I think, at 17, being fiercely independent and somewhat fearless, I just might have climbed out that window, too. Would I have been as selfless as Pen, denying Richard's proposal because she was afraid that he was actually being unselfish? Probably not; I think I would have blithely believed that he actually was in love with me, simply because I loved him. I think I had a surfeit of self-confidence...
Oh, yes. I first read this book at sixteen or seventeen, and thought of course I would climb out of the window!
I think Pen's rationale for why she didn't just walk out of the house was completely reasonable, too. Why create a scene when you can just disappear? Makes sense to me!
It is all poor Pug's fault... GH disparages poor pugs in several of her books (view spoiler) and I can not imagine why! They are so dear and sweet. Very 'unbiased' testimony from a pug owner...
I would go out the window, too. It is just the thing to begin an adventure.
Alathea, the "he's only proposing because he has to" shows up in (view spoiler) And Piers' mother -- I wish we knew more about her because she's a pretty interesting character -- kind of plays the role of Phoebe's friend Tom, in that she could have helped our hero along a bit, given the chance. And(view spoiler) I think somebody should write a fanfiction, in which he has that conversation with Sylvester and What Happens Next. Just putting that out there.
Ugh Lydia! Poor Piers! He is blinded by her beauty and one day he'll wake up and realize he married a spoiled, headstrong, childish young woman with no sense of humor. I wondered too if they brought the birds on their elopement! I bet they don't make it to Gretna before Piers changes his mind. She has her maid with her, so it's not so bad. Her father seems important and rich enough to hush it up. Lydia serves as a good foil for Pen. Lydia makes Pen seem mature and level headed. The affair of Lydia shows Pen that her childhood friend has changed in the last 5 years or she has changed from an adoring child into a young woman with a brain. Piers sounds like a stuffy bore. HE should marry Melissa Brandon! They'd be perfectly boring together, even though she's older and broke.
Susan in NC wrote: "like she’s all that and a bag of chips! ."Ahaha! This made me laugh out loud at the screen! I hadn't heard it before, but I'll be saving that for future use!
QNPoohBear wrote: "Ugh Lydia! Poor Piers! He is blinded by her beauty and one day he'll wake up and realize he married a spoiled, headstrong, childish young woman with no sense of humor. I wondered too if they brough..."You're right! Even though Piers was being condescending towards Pen, implying that she was not a mature lady, compared to Lydia she is so much more level headed.
Lydia just waits to be rescued, or demands to be rescued, and Pen tries to rescue herself.
I think Piers and Lydia will have a very "successful" marriage, but I also think Piers' mother will have a hard time not thinking occasionally of what a better daughter-in-law Pen would have made.
Just finished--review here, if you are interested:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
What I didn't mention in the review--the feeling that a later GH would have cut one of the two subplots. There could have been the whole elopement kerfuffle, but no diamond necklace theft or vice versa. Somewhere along the road of her writing career she learned to trim back and slow down the frantic narrative pace. 'The Black Sheep' is almost serene by comparison!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Just finished--review here, if you are interested:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
What I didn't mention in the review--the feeling that a later GH would have cut one of the two su..."
Yes, there was definitely a feeling that the book could have been wound up earlier! But I did enjoy it way more this time, too. Pen and Richard have been bumped way up in my couple list.
I agree with Barb in Maryland about the subplots. That's exactly what I was thinking. "What, more characters? Another subplot?" The whole Lydia and Piers thing shows Pen's maturity despite her madcap adventures and tendency to tell "stories." The diamond thing is not necessary.
Oh, but then we'd miss having extra Cecil!
There was a lot of luckiness and coincidence in the subplots, but I still really enjoyed them. I think the second love story, Lydia and Piers, is well worth keeping. It has an important purpose as well, I think, because seeing how Piers loves Lydia wakes Pen up to how much she loves Richard.
In response to the question if Bev was the younger son, he had to be. In the beginning of Chapter 2, when referring to Lord Saar "his family of two sons and four daughters", while is the later part of Chapter 8 (on p 273 of my Harlequin edition) Bev was referred to as "Lord Saar's younger son". A son was only younger in comparison to an older son. If only the daughter was older, Heyer would have referred to him as a younger brother.
I'm reading Snowdrift and Other Stories now and I don't think Heyer intends Piers and Lydia to go through with the elopement. There's one story with a Piers type character eloping with a Pen/Lydia hybrid. I think Piers will change his mind or someone will change Lydia's mind. (view spoiler)
I can see Piers changing his mind, but for the other alternative to take place you would need to produce an entirely new character out of nowhere for the sole purpose of charming Lydia. Heyer is not known for that kind of essentially pointless deus ex machina; I think if she had "meant" for the elopement not to go through she would have laid the groundwork for that well beforehand.
With the discussion in the other thread... I think it will be quite easy for Pen to fit in. She speaks enviously to Richard of her desire to experience society;& she is a heiress! A lot is forgiven then.
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "With the discussion in the other thread... I think it will be quite easy for Pen to fit in. She speaks enviously to Richard of her desire to experience society;& she is a heiress! A lot is forgiv..."
Of course! For an heiress, a bit of eccentricity is allowed...though I still think they will need to avoid Pen’s ancestral pile for a bit - give the neighbors time to forget the pretty, slim young man accompanied by Sir Richard/a cousin/a tutor, etc. of course, since a murder and elopement coincided with their arrival, I think it may be awhile before the locals forget Richard and company!
Abigail wrote: "Oh, but then we'd miss having extra Cecil!"True - he had me laughing out loud - the audiobook was a hoot!
When did women stop riding sidesaddle for everyday purposes? I was thinking that women all rode sidesaddle, so if Pen or another cross dressing lady was faced with having to ride a horse as a man would, that would be problematic. Being used to sidesaddle, how hard would it be to change to astride? Not as hard as going from regular to sidesaddle, I bet!I have seen Queen Elizabeth ride sidesaddle for special occasions, but generally, does anyone know when they switched?
I think as women's attire started to change (pretty radically) in the early 20th century, riding wear did, too. Women started to wear jodhpurs in the '20s, I think. Funny thing about riding, but especially sidesaddle - it takes such posture!So, anyway, as trousers became acceptable, riding astride also became acceptable!
I agree with what Carol & Susan said. I imagine titles and wealth allowed for more leniency to be a bit eccentric. I also agree that it probably wouldn't hurt to stay away from that particular neighborhood for a bit!I read an interesting brief article (I lost the link!, but it had something to do with Downton Abbey?) about the history of horseback riding for ladies. Karlyne, you're right about the arly 20th century. If I remember correctly, they said a new type of sidesaddle was developed sometime around the regency period that made it safer/easier for women to ride, and I think they also developed some sort of dresses that wouldn't get hung up if the lady got thrown off the horse.
There’s a scene in the TV series Victoria when the young queen rides astride, but everyone seems pretty shocked about it. It certainly would not have been usual! But I’ve also read about some horsey women of the early nineteenth century who insisted on riding astride for hunting. I can't imagine hunting at all, but I especially can't imagine hunting sidesaddle.
Susan in NC wrote: "Abigail wrote: "Oh, but then we'd miss having extra Cecil!"True - he had me laughing out loud - the audiobook was a hoot!"
I loved Cecil!! I've had a hard time listening to audio books in the past -- they've usually put me to sleep; but I'd like to try again in the future. For The Corinthian, was there a certain narrator anyone would recommend that would probably not put me to sleep? :)) Any audio suggestions for the next group read, Friday's Child??
I wonder if riding side-saddle went out when cars came in? That's roughly the same time as trousers came in, I think.My logic is that when horses were the main way of getting about then all the ladies rode a horse, including all the delicate, feminine, and modest ones. But when cars came in, the only people who carried on riding were sporty people who enjoyed it. I can imagine that when the riding community became mostly sporty and active women then the average level of concern about appearing delicate changed, and the fashion changed with it.
I believe ladies started riding astride in pants during the 1920s or a little earlier.I saw the same article as Jane. http://www.stylemyride.net/single-pos...
http://www.equilifeworld.com/lifestyl...
Jane wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Abigail wrote: "Oh, but then we'd miss having extra Cecil!"True - he had me laughing out loud - the audiobook was a hoot!"
I loved Cecil!! I've had a hard time listening to a..."
Georgina Sutton narrated the audiobook version I listened to through the Scribd app - she was delightful!
Thanks for the info and the links. I don't think I could do sidesaddle, but it would be interesting to try.
❇Critterbee wrote: "Thanks for the info and the links. I don't think I could do sidesaddle, but it would be interesting to try."I don't think I have the posture for it! The rider's spine is supposed to align with the horse's spine, which means you're facing forward but your legs are on one side. I think that's why posture was so important back in the day.
Susan in NC wrote: Georgina Sutton narrated the audiobook version I listened to through the Scribd app - she was delightful! I second this! I love her narration and have listened to it several times already.
victoria_tonks wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: Georgina Sutton narrated the audiobook version I listened to through the Scribd app - she was delightful! I second this! I love her narration and have listened to it several ti..."
Thank you, Susan and Victoria!
I'm like Jane. If I listened to the audio I'd fall asleep for sure. In fact, I leave my TV on at night when I roll over to go to sleep. It is just a good way to help me get off to sleep better.
Elizabeth wrote: "I'm like Jane. If I listened to the audio I'd fall asleep for sure. In fact, I leave my TV on at night when I roll over to go to sleep. It is just a good way to help me get off to sleep better."White noise! It helps.
Finished the book finally, and didn´t like it as much as the others I´ve read by far! Too much complicated and unnecessary adventure and too little banter or courtship compared to others.
Michaela wrote: "Finished the book finally, and didn´t like it as much as the others I´ve read by far! Too much complicated and unnecessary adventure and too little banter or courtship compared to others."True, there certainly was not much courtship - to the point where Pen completely doubted Richard's affection for her!
I find reading them in order allows me to appreciate Heyer’s evolution as an author, I have never done it this way with her as I was limited when I started to read her as a young teen-ager by what was available. Publishing was not orderly then, and I had to depend on pocket money, the college library, and my mother’s good will once I got her hooked on Heyer. I remember Sylvester making her laugh, and we acquired everything we could find, seeking out various book shops farther afield from our small town. Lending them to our friends and neighbors caused her popularity to bloom in our little corner of Western Pennsylvania, and made my vocabulary blossom. We are seeing her early, Heyer before she became our beloved Georgette. I’ve been doing the same with Agatha Christie for close to 3 years, and some of the books early on are “stinkers”, as are some from the 1960s when society seems to have made Christie very unhappy and it creeps into her books, young radicals popping up everywhere threatening life as she knew it. But there are other books where one can see the bones of the Poirot/Hastings partnership emerging, the banter of Tommy and Tuppence, and soon, Miss Marple will enter the fray. The same perspective is sharpening into focus for me with Heyer’s Regencies, although I may someday just read my way through all her books by date of publication as her voice develops across the genres and eras. She really found her feet in the Regencies and Georgians...the drawing rooms and ballrooms, Almack’s, Hyde Park, Vauxhall Gardens. I think she might be amazed how widely regarded those books are, and disappointed by the histories.
Oh my gosh, Kim, I’m doing the same - although I’m reading all of the Marples in order first, then I’ll tackle Poirot and other Christies. Thank you for confirming what I thought I saw creeping into the later Christies- bitterness over social change. Same with Thirkell in her post-war novels - some were funny, but there’sa lot of bitterness, too!I definitely agree, with Heyer she definitely hit her stride with the Georgian and Regency romances; I love historical fiction, and I can’t fault her research, but I struggled to get through the historicals we’ve read. Too dry for me, but the wit and sparkle of her romances really pop - if they were her entire body of work it would be impressive! I mean, she invented a genre.
Susan, I started with the Agatha Christie group when I had my accident, picked up in the “later middle” and found the 1960s to be nearly intolerable because of Christie’s bitterness, it even crept into Marple and Poirot. Her stand alone attempts to jump on the Bond/Harry Palmer bandwagon were just sad. I am re-reading Thirkell for the 3rd(?) time through, and the pre-war novels are so much fun. I am just finishing The Brandons, and Mrs. Moreland is shedding hair pins, Tony is wittering on about ballet, French poets, and any other topic mentioned by any other person, Mrs. Brandon is flirting with Noel Merton, and Lavinia is bursting out of her clothes. It is all such quiet life, helpful in these times of upheaval. Thank heavens authors like Austen, Heyer, Christie (most of the time), Rex Stout, Pym, and Thirkell exist to provide retreats from the noise. I imagine them in 1939, with the world seemingly coming to an end, focusing on the everyday lives that go on in spite of Hitler & Stalin, and I know we can make it through our turmoil as well.
Exactly - we shall get through this! 1939 is the perfect reminder. I want to finish Thirkell so I can start back at the beginning...Tony and Lydia as kids were hilarious!
QNPoohBear wrote: "I believe ladies started riding astride in pants during the 1920s or a little earlier.I saw the same article as Jane. http://www.stylemyride.net/single-pos......"
At least in the United States, women began riding astride using split skirts in the 1880s. Here is a pattern description for one from reproduction pattern company used by historical reenactors.
"Split Riding Skirt, Style FL-231: Time period ranges from late 1880's to Turn of the Century. The length of the skirt goes from floor length, to mid calf, to just below knee cap. Looks like the picture. Sizes run from 8 to 18." http://www.ushist.com/old-west_ladies...
I want to finish Thirkell so I can start back at the beginningis the first one High Rising? sadly, my library doesn't have it so I might get it on amazon High Rising
Yes, GR labels it as Barsetshire #1.
Jackie wrote: "I want to finish Thirkell so I can start back at the beginningis the first one High Rising? sadly, my library doesn't have it so I might get it on amazon High Rising"
Retro Reads will be doing a group read of this title on the 2nd of May. :)
Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "Jackie wrote: "I want to finish Thirkell so I can start back at the beginningis the first one High Rising? sadly, my library doesn't have it so I might get it on amazon High Rising"..."
Dagnabit! I forgot to check the library yesterday. Oh, well, I'll have to make another trip before May!
Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "Jackie wrote: "I want to finish Thirkell so I can start back at the beginningis the first one High Rising? sadly, my library doesn't have it so I might get it on amazon High Rising"..."
thank you, Carol!
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That's pretty much how I feel about it too. Before we started reading it here, I'd have put it in the second tier of Heyer's, but I've had a change of heart as well. Unless it's just the fact of reading it after Regency Buck and AIA, which are really my least favourites :-)