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The Corinthian
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The Corinthian Group Read March 2018 - Spoilers Thread
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Hilary (A Wytch's Book Review)
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Feb 25, 2018 08:26AM
Final thoughts? Overall opinions?
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I read a little more than half the book while waiting in line at the DMV this afternoon! I enjoyed the fun romp. It was what I needed to keep my temper in check while waiting forever during a storm that made the power flicker on and off. I didn't need to use my brain.Didn't Pen's aunt ever warn her not to go off with strange men? The whole plot is improbable but fun.
My overall impression is that this is a Shakespearean comedy done Georgette Heyer style. She was clearly inspired by Twelfth Night with the cross-dressing heroine, the lovesick young lady falling for the heroine disguised as a boy, villains galore and lots of fun.
The Brandons are a sad lot. I didn't remember that part of the story but either I remembered or figured out what happened to the necklace, or both.
The ending needs work. A lot of work. Pen needs to grow up a bit more too.
I have finished & have a quick question. Is Ceddie the elder son & Bev the younger? If someone could save me a reread! :D
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "I have finished & have a quick question. Is Ceddie the elder son & Bev the younger? If someone could save me a reread! :D"I don't think there's a definite statement, but from the fact that Cedric is going to call in the Runners, I suspect he is the elder and the heir (and thus prospective inheritor of the emeralds). I also see him as closer in age to Sir Richard, while Bev is the contemporary of Piers, who is only a couple of years older than Pen.
Ignore that - I just opened the book at random and see that Sir Richard describes Bev as the younger brother of the lady to whom he was to be betrothed.
Yes, the whole thing is highly improbable, but I enjoyed it despite that. I think Heyer just manages to make it squeeze under the line of not needing suspension of disbelief.I believed that Richard's drunkenness was enough to let him run off with a young girl, especially as she was disguised as a boy. I reckon some part of his mind was thinking of her as a boy even though he knew that she was a girl. And I think that the fact that he knew he had to marry her, once he got his wits together, made it more plausible as well.
I've read some other romances where girls dress as boys and the men treat them as mates for 75% of the book - now that I find unbelievable!
I think I found Lydia and Piers more unbelievable - those two will never make it to Scotland in a million years!
Stayed up last night to finish it, and I can't believe I didn't re-read this for so long because I didn't like it! I have had a change of heart. And seeing it in the context of GH's Regency progression is very interesting.
I finished it, thanks to a wet afternoon yesterday when I had nothing more pressing to do than read! The book reminded me of some of the short stories in Pistols for Two--the light and witty tone, the settings (stage coach, country inn, moonlight), the two main characters. I think the book benefits from being rather short. Nothing--or no one--is given so much attention as to become tedious.It's interesting that Heyer sometimes seems to ignore a substantial age difference between her two main characters--but not in this case. The scene at the end with Mrs Luttrell was interesting--is she there to make us see Richard through the eyes of another woman than Pen? The point is definitely made that she finds him attractive. She does give him the push he needs to go after Pen.
ETA: What I'm getting at is Heyer seems to think we (the readers) might need convincing that Richard is not too old for Pen.
Mrs. Luttrell knows Pen very well and she's in a position to know what's in Pen's heart. I think she understands what Richard should be feeling according to properties and came over to see whether he's in love or just doing his duty. I'm not sure Heyer's contemporary readers would blink at such a big age difference the way we do now. The fact that Pen is only 17 and not yet "out" makes it a little icky but Richard is a boy at heart.
I finished yesterday & still love it but I will mention my main quibble.Richard is unrelated to the Brandons, visibly dislikes Bev, yet will give him ₤12000??? When he has already bailed him out once???
The trusty currency converter has this sum at £407,520.00 in 2005 money.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cu...
My frugal soul just can't accept taking that much money away from his own estate.
I can accept him buying Ceddie his colours because Richard & I both see something worthwhile in him.
Ceddie remains one of my favourite secondary male characters. :)
Edit:typo
Cedric is great fun, I agree. I wondered if it was really necessary to kill Bev off. If I thought it through, I might find that it was necessary to the plot, but I can't reason it out at the moment.QN, well said, Richard is a boy at heart.
Sheila wrote: "Cedric is great fun, I agree. I wondered if it was really necessary to kill Bev off. If I thought it through, I might find that it was necessary to the plot, but I can't reason it out at the moment..."I think it may have been. He would have blackmailed Richard forever!
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "I think it may have been. He would have blackmailed Richard forever!"It is a bit of a puzzle. Is accompanying a young woman who happens to dressed as a boy such a terrible thing that it is worth buying Bev off with such a large sum? Why does rich, handsome, intelligent, GSOH Richard need to make a match with the unpleasant daughter of an impoverished and dissolute lord? Why does Richard only respond 'Perhaps' when Pen suggests Bev realised she was not a boy, and then put up his glass when she concludes "How very unfortunate it was that we should have met someone who knows you so well."?
I doubt if it is what GH intended, but I think Richard has an even more chequered past than his brother in law hints.
I think it would be more Pen's good name that Richard would have worried about.
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "Sheila wrote: "Cedric is great fun, I agree. I wondered if it was really necessary to kill Bev off. If I thought it through, I might find that it was necessary to the plot, but I can't reason it ou..."Thank you, I can let that go now!
I read a few reviews of The Corinthian last night. One reviewer mentions that a careful reader will observe when Richard's feelings about Pen change. Did someone take note of a specific moment? I can't say that I did, but I suspect I missed something.
I didn't see those additional replies about Bev before I replied--sorry about that. Richard is a bit of a puzzle, but I don't imagine him having a checkered past--if anything he seems to be suffering a case of arrested development when it comes to women. Perhaps because he is a romantic at heart.
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "Another great analysis by Mari Nesshttps://www.tor.com/2013/01/15/creati..."
Although the review would make more sense if the writer knew the difference between 'flaunting' (to make a big show of) and 'flouting' (not following). Richard and Pen flout the rules of propriety by kissing in an open carriage: they definitely don't flaunt them!
Just finished and had to push my rating back up to 4 stars - many good points made above, I know it’s not perfect, but it’s been so much fun and a lovely antidote to rainy, windy winter days! I can’t recommend the audiobook enough - Cedric, Jimmy Yarde, even the evil Bev, were so well done!
I enjoyed the audio book too, although my mum heard part of it and insisted that the voice used for Cedric sounded like Julie Waters."Richard and Pen flout the rules of propriety by kissing in an open carriage"
It was more than propriety they were flouting considering that the passengers of the coach thought Pen was a young boy.
Lol - very true!
Louise Sparrow wrote: "I enjoyed the audio book too, although my mum heard part of it and insisted that the voice used for Cedric sounded like Julie Waters.Hahahaha!
& thinking of Richard's character - he was only 29, maybe a little bored with things, but overall having a pretty good life & feeling there was no rush for marriage - especially since he hadn't met anyone who really rocked his world. Then along come his mother & sister with their guilt trip, so he feels obligated to marry Melissa.
I think that guilt also explains why he's willing to pay off some of Bev's debts, he's escaping what would have become a permanent responsibility if he'd married Melissa.
Sheila, re: when do Sir Richard's feelings change towards Pen. I made notes on this as I was reading -- when does she fall in love with him, and he with her?The first indication from him, I find at the very end of Chapter 6, as Richard is getting ready to meet Beverley in the fateful spinney for the first time. Pen fusses at him because he won't allow her to go and calls him "selfish, and disagreeable, and altogether abominable!" But when Richard agrees:
The large eyes softened instantly, and as they scanned Sir Richard's face a slight flush mounted to Pen's cheeks. She bent over her plate again, saying in a gruff little voice[like Jenny in A Civil Contract]"No, you are not. You are very kind, and obliging, and I am sorry I teased you."
Sir Richard looked at her. He seemed to be about to speak but she forestalled him, adding buoyantly: "And when I tell Piers how well you have looked after me, he will be most grateful to you, I assure you."
"Will he?" said Sir Richard, at his dryest. "I am afraid I was forgetting Piers."
It's not long after that before Richard realizes that he had not the least desire to relinquish his self-appointed guardianship but also that he must do so, and without any loss of time. (Chapter 7)
Richard is most definitely in love by the time Piers enters the picture but I think the moment he fell in love was when Pen dropped on him. He just didn't know it yet. Fate handed him an opportunity for adventure and he took it. They keep insisting he was so drunk he didn't know what he was doing but I think he did. He just acted on instinct rather than rational thought. Richard's thought process: "Adventure! Thwarting annoying relatives twice over! Girl dressed as boy? ha ha how funny! YES! Let's do it!" then as the adventure continued, his conscience started to creep up on him. It's a little implausible that all that happens in only 3 days but it's a fun romp.
Elza wrote: "Sheila, re: when do Sir Richard's feelings change towards Pen. I made notes on this as I was reading -- when does she fall in love with him, and he with her?The first indication from him, I find a..."
Oh, well done, Elza!
Rosina wrote: "Why does rich, handsome, intelligent, GSOH Richard need to make a match with the unpleasant daughter of an impoverished and dissolute lord?"The impression I got was that every woman in the country, for 10 years, had been attempting to marry him for his money, and so he cordially despised them all and thought that most women were boring and insipid.
He had to marry to provide the family with an heir, and since his family were so set on marrying in the Brandons, he thought he might as well do it since he was never going to find a woman that he actually liked.
Spot on, Nick!
I still cannot get over the 'Luckily you are privileged enough to be worthy of marrying me, even though I have a horrible personality, no sense of humor, and no kind heart.' Does not make for an appealing mate.
❇Critterbee wrote: "I still cannot get over the 'Luckily you are privileged enough to be worthy of marrying me, even though I have a horrible personality, no sense of humor, and no kind heart.' Does not make for an ap..."Frankly if I was Richard & had married this very cold fish, I would never have sobered up!
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "Frankly if I was Richard & had married this very cold fish, I would never have sobered up! "Richard's brother-in-law was right: "Myself, I'd as soon marry a statue! ... I'd find a cosier armful, 'pon my soul I would!"
I finished just before setting out on a long journey, so am way behind I the comments. I think my first sense of Richard developing a tendre came earlier than chapter 6--wasn't there a "lurking twinkle" earlier, perhaps at the first inn? That's always one of Heyer's signs of emerging affection.I'm actually one who finds this book psychologically credible throughout. Richard is ready to propose to Melissa because he knows he has to produce heirs, he believes he will never feel love, and he wants his family to get off his back already--but at the same time, he feels his soul being crushed by the choice. Then he makes an impulsive choice while drunk, and as he sobers up he is filled with a sense of recklessness. He and Pen feed off each other's need to escape the distasteful realities and pressures of their lives; her innocent recklessness encourages his more informed choice to throw away all the norms of his life. And it struck me how quickly he and Pen developed an easy companionship; there was no awkwardness until each knew that he/she was in love with the other. They just seemed so comfortable together.
I believed in their love for each other, and think that in the mores of Heyer's day, it would have been considered a truism that a headstrong girl like Pen would be best off with an older partner, to guide and contain her. It's only post-1960s that that idea started to fade away (and thank heaven for me that it did!).
All the twists and coincidences in the plot gave me a lot of pleasure on this reading. I just sat back and enjoyed the ride.
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "I think it would be more Pen's good name that Richard would have worried about."Possibly - but since Bev didn't know her real name, or the family she would shame like Lydia Bennet, that can't have been a major motive in offering him the equivalent of half a million! And would you trust Bev not to try to make more money out of it, if he ever did learn who Richard's companion was?
Obviously she couldn't be handed over to Lady Luttrell until Bev had left (or he would recognise her and learn her real identity) but until then, she was just an anonymous girl dressed as a boy.
Abigail wrote: "I finished just before setting out on a long journey, so am way behind I the comments. I think my first sense of Richard developing a tendre came earlier than chapter 6--wasn't there a "lurking twi..."
Completely agree with you, Abigail. In light of their personalities, I find their behaviors completely credible; it's as though they've both found their best friends, the ones they haven't even realized they were lacking.
I wonder why Goodreads separated those comments...
❇Critterbee wrote: "I still cannot get over the 'Luckily you are privileged enough to be worthy of marrying me, even though I have a horrible personality, no sense of humor, and no kind heart.' Does not make for an ap..."Lol! That’s why, yes, with a father hitting the brandy and exhausting the family resources, and a brother like Bev I do feel sorry for Melissa, but at the same time her attitude amazes me - like she’s all that and a bag of chips!
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "❇Critterbee wrote: "I still cannot get over the 'Luckily you are privileged enough to be worthy of marrying me, even though I have a horrible personality, no sense of humor, and no kind heart.' Doe..."Me, either - George has the right idea.
The fact that Richard and Pen are both being pressured by their families to marry someone they don't like makes it a little more believable that (even though it's a crazy thing to do), they decide to solve both their problems by running away together.I just love that despite what Richard's relations think of him, and despite Melissa's assumption that he is lucky she would even consider marrying him, he truly is a romantic, and a self-admitted one -- as opposed to the childhood chum Pen is seeking. And although I sometimes find Pen's endless desire for "adventure" just as tiresome as Lydia's tears, she is the complete opposite of the kind of woman he's expected to marry! So you can see the attraction.
Abigail wrote: "I finished just before setting out on a long journey, so am way behind I the comments. I think my first sense of Richard developing a tendre came earlier than chapter 6--wasn't there a "lurking twi..."I believed in their love, as well; once Pen sees Piers again she realizes he’s not what she expected or wants! I think she’s having a grand adventure an Richard is the perfect companion for her - didn’t take much to see, for both of them, that they’d suit each other in the grand adventure of life and marriage and raising a family. Shared love of adventure, a sense of humor, being able to make the best of a situation- like attracts like! I agree, Richard had no longer dared hope to find love, and here’s a warm, funny, charming young woman with a strong sense of self who’s not likely to whine or fuss (like his dear mama) or bore him (like Melissa) - what’s not to like?
The conversation between Pen, Piers, and Lydia's maid! "Don't forget the parrot." I love Pen.
Karlyne wrote: "The conversation between Pen, Piers, and Lydia's maid! "Don't forget the parrot." I love Pen."That scene made me laugh out loud!
I have to admit, I wondered if Lydia brought the pair of lovebirds (ack!) Which inevitably made me wonder what Lydia and Piers would be like in 10 years...I fear Piers might not end up with a warm, funny, intelligent wife like his mum, Lydia might turn out more like Richard’s mother with her passive-aggressive die-away airs...
Piers is already making excuses for her'she's such an innocent thing,' 'her sensibility' etc
that doesn't sound like an indication for a happy future.
❇Critterbee wrote: "Piers is already making excuses for her'she's such an innocent thing,' 'her sensibility' etc
that doesn't sound like an indication for a happy future."
Yes, that’s what I was thinking as I was reading.
Susan in NC wrote: "I have to admit, I wondered if Lydia brought the pair of lovebirds (ack!) Which inevitably made me wonder what Lydia and Piers would be like in 10 years...I fear Piers might not end up with a warm,..."Funny, because doesn't Piers say that he thinks of her being like a bird? Looking ... in Chapter 11, when they meet at the inn.
"Do you know, she always makes me think of a bird?"
"A goose, I suppose," said Pen somewhat tartly. [Good one, Pen!]
"I meant a wild bird,' he replied with dignity. "A fluttering, timid, little --"
...where he is interrupted by Pen's opinion that Lydia is anything but timid!
So if she brings along the lovebirds, Piers deserves it.
Knowing this was GH's first real Regency romance leads me to look for all the classic elements that show up here first.Right off the bat we have the family discussing the hero in absentia, the seemingly frail but controlling mother, and the indignant sister.
Soon to follow are the sponging brothers-in-law, followed closely by the overbearing mother (or aunt, in this case) using her daughter/niece as a path to fortune or social position.
Let's see, what else -- the runaway bride, the childhood sweetheart, the otherwise likable hero turning into either haughty aristocrat or street-smart fighter, as needed ...
what am I missing?
Elza wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "I have to admit, I wondered if Lydia brought the pair of lovebirds (ack!) Which inevitably made me wonder what Lydia and Piers would be like in 10 years...I fear Piers might not..."Good one, Elza- why do I suspect Piers gave her the lovebirds?
Cedric! The sympathetic, honest, roguish friend who has no filter.
Abigail wrote: "I finished just before setting out on a long journey, so am way behind I the comments. I think my first sense of Richard developing a tendre came earlier than chapter 6--wasn't there a "lurking twi..."Abigail - it sounds like you were a bit of a 'Pen' but in no way wanted an older man to guide and contain you? Intriguing - sounds like there is a story there! ha ha
Yes, a bit. I was brought up by my grandmother and she was always thrusting me at older men, hoping they would "shape" me. Sixty-two and still unmarried, Grandma! Take that!
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