Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
Theological Questions
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How long did God take to create everything? Is Moses RIGHT or is he WRONG?
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Robert,Just to ask a question – what do you do with the following text?
Genesis 1:14-18 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,[f] and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
This occurs on day four of the creation, so the previous three days are without the markers that were created specifically for the marking of time. This passage in Genesis clearly indicates that the purpose of these luminaries is two-fold, 1) to separate day from night and 2) to mark the passage time.
Just curious what your thoughts are on the first three days without the sun, moon and stars and the second three days with them.
Thanks,
andrew
Andrew wrote: "Just curious what your thoughts are on the first three days without the sun, moon and stars and the second three days with them..."My response: Just because the markers of time did not yet exist, does not mean that a day was not a day.
I would rely on the rest of the Scriptures.
100% of Bible occurrences where the Hebrew word for "day" is used in conjunction with the words "evening" and/or "morning" it is always referring to a 24 hour literal day.
100% of Bible occurrences where the Hebrew word for "day" is used in conjunction with the "numbers" such as "first, seventh, day five, etc." it is always referring to a 24 hour literal day.
So, with 100% of the Bible occurrences falling within these parameters, on what basis would you say that the first three days were not literal?
I am not saying that they are not literal, my view is the literal 24-hour, six day view. However, that doesn't mean that questions don't pop up as we read the text and we should explore those questions in light of Scripture (such as your reference to the Exodus passages). However, I don't think that holding a framework view constitutes not believing his writing, as you mention in your first post here, and thus not believing the words of Christ. Secondly, I would ask for some sort of reference to your two statistics - you've either read it somewhere or studied it yourself but it would be nice to be able to reference that material for myself.
Andrew wrote: "you've either read it somewhere or studied it yourself but it would be nice to be able to reference that material for myself. ..."I have studied it myself. With online tools, it is pretty easy to do. Of course, I am not the first person to do so, there are others online with the same results.
I used BlueletterBible.org to find the references...
Here is a link to start with...
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...
Day (yowm) occurs 2,287 times in the OT. You can search these findings by "evening", "morning", numbers, etc.
Andrew wrote: "However, I don't think that holding a framework view constitutes not believing his writing, as you mention in your first post here..."My response: If the Holy Spirit writing through Moses says they are SIX days and you say they are NOT SIX days...
...is that NOT being in disagreement with the Holy Spirit and Moses through whom He writes?
Robert wrote: "My response: 100% of Bible occurrences where the Hebrew word for "day" is used..."He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Jn 12:40)
Some, even very religious people, persist in their error, Andrew. Many have tried and all have failed to address Robert about this issue on this site.
בהצלחה
Andrew wrote: "Excellent...thanks!"You're welcome.
Here is one from Jesus...
Mark 10:6 - "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
Adam and Eve were created on the SIXTH day. If one assumes the DAY-AGE theory, six days would be about 12 BILLION years (based on the evolutionist's theory of a 14 billion year old earth.)
If Adam and Even were created in the 12 BILLIONTH year... would that be at the BEGINNING?
Eric wrote: "Some, even very religious people, persist in their error, Andrew...."My response: YOU are bearing FALSE witness.
All you need to do to prove me wrong is QUOTE ONE VERSE that disproves my 100% statement.
But in you ARROGANCE you offer NOTHING but YOUR OPINION...
QUOTE SCRIPTURE!
Eric wrote: "Many have tried and all have failed to address Robert about this issue on this site...."All have FAILED... because there is NO SHRED OF EVIDENCE... just the ARROGANT OPINIONS of those who think they are know-it-alls!
Robert - early Genesis was written by a chronicler long after any of the six day occurences took place. He was given a vision he didn't understand and wrote it down to the best of his abilities. A Christian can believe God created everything he says he created without taking the FANTASTIC story literally. You make it so hard to be a Christian no one can possibly qualify (except you, of course!) Is this what Jesus meant when he said his yoke would be light and his burden small? NOT my Jesus - your model seems to be a Pharissee or a teacher of the law..
Robert wrote: "Robert - early Genesis was written by a chronicler long after any of the six day occurences took place. He was given a vision he didn't understand and wrote it down to the best of his abilities. A ..."My response: So you consider YOUR OPINION as SUPERIOR to that which the Holy Spirit wrote through the author of Genesis?
Robert wrote: "A Christian can believe God created everything he says he created without taking the FANTASTIC story literally..."My response: Oh, you mean the story that JESUS BELIEVED! But YOU REJECT...
... you are a follower of your FALSE christ...
Robert,The Bible also teaches us to not use strong language...
Verbal assault, slander, accusation, and perverse speech have no place in the body of Christ (Colossians 3:8; 1 Peter 2:1; Ephesians 4:31). What must unbelievers think when they see Christians slinging verbal mud at each other over minor doctrinal differences? Ephesians 4:29 says, “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”
There is a vast difference between a friendly debate and a bitter war of words.
Onto the debate...
Regarding the doctrine of creation, there are several views within Christianity:
1. Literal 24x6 creation – God created all there is in six 24-hour days.
2. Day-Age view – The creation events occurred as depicted in Genesis 1, but instead of six 24-hour days, the “days” of creation represent indeterminate, finite periods of time.
3. The Framework view – The days of Genesis 1 represent a theological framework within which to narrate the creation of all things.
Since the advent of modern science, the 24x6 view of creation has been increasingly abandoned by Christians. The primary reason for this rejection is the fact that the 24x6 view of creation necessitates a “young earth” age of the universe (anywhere from 6,000 to 30,000 years), and the prevailing scientific view is that the universe is billions of years old. The Day-Age view (sometimes called progressive creationism) is an attempt to reconcile the Genesis creation account with an “old earth” view of the age of the universe.
Please note that the Day-Age view still posits that God created all things and it still rejects atheistic (naturalistic) evolution. Nor should the Day-Age view be confused with “theistic evolution,” the view that macroevolution is true but, instead of being guided by blind chance, was guided by the hand of God. Day-Age proponents see themselves as reconciling the biblical account with science. Its opponents see this view as a slippery slope to rejecting the veracity of God’s Word.
Because many Christians view the creation/evolution debate as of secondary importance, there is usually little or no concern over the theological implications of how one interprets the Bible’s view of creation. In truth, however, what one believes regarding creation is crucial because it goes to the issue of the inerrancy, trustworthiness, and authority of Scripture. Of primary importance is why a person chooses a particular view, in light of the Word of God. Believing that the Bible is inspired and inerrant but not literal in the first two chapters of Genesis is one thing. Believing that the Bible is simply wrong or cannot be trusted is another. In other words, the key issue when it comes to one’s view of creation is how that view relates to the authority and reliability of the Bible.
If the Bible can’t be trusted in the first two chapters, what makes it trustworthy throughout the rest of the book? Typically, critics of the Bible focus their attacks on the first eleven chapters of Genesis, in particular the creation account. The question is, why do they target this part of Scripture? The first eleven chapters of Genesis set the stage for the rest of the biblical story. You can’t understand the unfolding narrative of Scripture without Genesis 1–11. There is so much foundational material in these chapters for the rest of the Bible—e.g., creation, the fall, sin, the certainty of judgment, the necessity of a Savior, and the introduction of the gospel. To ignore these foundational doctrines would render the rest of the Bible as unintelligible and irrelevant.
Yet critics of the Bible want to treat these opening chapters of Genesis as ancient Hebrew myth rather than primeval history. The truth of the matter is that, compared to the creation stories of other cultures, the Genesis account—even it its most literal interpretation—reads more like history than myth. In most ancient literature, creation is seen as a struggle between the gods. Most creation myths portray the culture in question as the center of the religious universe. The Genesis account, while sharing many similarities with other creation stories, differs in that it portrays God as the sole Sovereign over creation (not one among many gods) and mankind as the pinnacle of His creation, serving as His stewards over creation.
Chad wrote: "Robert,The Bible also teaches us to not use strong language...
Verbal assault, slander, accusation, and perverse speech have no place in the body of Christ (Colossians 3:8; 1 Peter 2:1; Ephesian..."
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God says...
Galatians 2:11 - "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face , because he was to be blamed ."
Galatians 2:14 - "But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel , I said unto Peter before them all , If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
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My response: Any heresy that calls into question God and/or His Word needs strong and Biblical response. Especially when the heresy is posted or proclaimed publicly!
Exodus 31:17 - "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."
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Exodus 20:11 - "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Exodus 31:17 - "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."
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Jesus said Moses is RIGHT !
John 5:45-47
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words ?