Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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In Support of Centrism
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I'm unfamiliar with centrism as a concept, but I think I pick up what you're throwing down. Concerning the first extreme, I think C.S. Lewis said it aptly when he said, in The Problem of Pain: "By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingness; and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness- the desire to see others than the self happy; not happy in this way or in that, but just happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, ‘What does it matter so long as they are contented?’ We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven- a senile benevolence who, as they say, liked to see young people enjoying themselves’, and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, ‘a good time was had by all’. . . . I should very much like to live in a universe which was governed on such lines. But since it is abundantly clear that I don’t, and since I have reason to believe, nevertheless, that God is Love, I conclude that my conception of love needs correction."
Concerning the other extreme, the notion of single-minded obedience...often to the exclusion of grace, I must admit that this conundrum has vexed me more than any other issue of salvation. Is it merely grace, or is it grace + fruit (works)? Jesus said that every branch that doesn't bear fruit will be cut from the vine and thrown into the fire. However, we must learn to understand the difference between our own self-righteous efforts as opposed to us getting our own will out of the way so He can work through us. It is not the branch that produces fruit. Rather, the branch BEARS fruit, but only by virtue of being connected to the vine.
To put it another way, what were Christ's commandments? To love the Lord with all our heart, soul, and mind...and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Note that LOVE is the operative word in both directives. So, the great irony here is that if a person strives to obey these commandments out of any motivation other than love...out of fear of hell-fire or a desire for self-righteousness...then they are failing to obey the very essence of the commandments. They are doing it not out of love and gratitude, but are instead motivated by fear and self-preservation....and Christ addressed this, too, when He said "For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." - Matthew 16:25.
In summation, I'm not sure there is a simple answer...only that we pray for humility and, as the psalmist prayed in 139:23-24.
"Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!"
It is a challenge:As a God gave us the O.T. Death sentence for a man trying to upright the Ark as it was being pulled by a beast... and the N.T. death of Ananias and Sapphira for only giving a portion of the amount they insisted.
We need to not get too comfy with the grace mercy and tolerance of our deity. Me thinks.
You can't really have love without justice, protection, truth, and purity. Although Grace, Mercy, and Forgiveness get squeezed in through those.
Aye, Rod. We humans tend to be at our worst when we're "comfy". No one gets stronger by sitting on the couch. They need the discomfort of the gym. I think this principle translates to our spiritual state, as well. The cost of discipleship means both discomfort at the hands of the world and at the hands of God. God's administered discomfort of His children, as you pointed out in the past, is better viewed as "discipline". It is corrective, not vindictive as is the world's. However, cases like those two you pointed out scare the tar out of me because I can't claim to be any better than those who were dealt God's wrath. He has begun a work in me. I don't doubt that. I just hope I don't hinder Him from finishing it. I need His grace so very badly, so I do hope it's sufficient. I hope I can prove to be the good soil. Eternity is a reeeeeally long time.
Well said Adam. There is assurance of Salvation- but it's a bit complicated. One test: is to find out what you're fully against.
I often meet people who boast: "I love Jesus - but MY Jesus would never do that. (Fill in the blank with endless God moments of wrath and Sovereignty or HIS choice.)
I agree, Rod,A'la, Rob Bell the heretic. "My Jesus would never send someone to hell. That's a medieval invention ..."
Adam - LOL! I'm not sure there's any ecumenical movement afoot entitled "Centrism". I just coined the phrase to indicate churches that recognize both God's love and the obedience necessary to avoid His Wrath. These churches are few and far between because, due to an oddball 21st century phenomenon, big money tends to go to extreme causes. So, centrist churches have trouble supporting themselves strictly through the member's generosity. They often need some other form of revenue such as a day care or school attached. This, of course, also blunts their message as they're more concerned about keeping their cash cow supplying milk then in worshipping God.
Conversely, Fundamentalists are all about obedience to God's strictest dictates. Every affront to an onerous righteousness is considered hellworthy, even the admonitions. Unreasonable men with no gravitas want obedience from their women although they haven't any cognitive skills to warrant it. They insist on a literal translation of a Bible which in many places is poetic and in others ignores historic or scientific reality. They champion orthodoxy, exclusiveness, antiintellectualism, and egotism, also to unhealthy levels. Their God has a sword in one hand and a flamethrower in the other and has no mercy. If we don't want the End of Times abruptly upon us, extremists will have to yield to reason and follow the full palette of Jesus' ministry, not their narrow slice of his teachings. That involves centrism and is the only way for Christianity to survive long into the future.